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[Pangaea]

Grond0 wrote...

Rather than hit for damage mind flayers' standard attack is an intelligence drain.  However, they still have to hit you to cause the drain and their attack is not that great, so a character with low AC and high intelligence is pretty safe.  Try getting a particular characters effective AC as low as possible - there are lots of spells that can help with this, e.g. blur, improved invisibility, spirit armour, chant, defensive harmony etc. 

Tried some of that, but it didn't seem to do anything. Didn't use all of those together though. AC is already pretty low on Jaheira, Minsc and Keldorn though, -7 and -6, but they still get stunned on the first time of asking, and then devoured 1 second later. Well and good that each intelligence drain takes away 5, but when they hit like a machinegunner it's not really a great help. My 20 intelligence PC got murdered in a heartbeat as well.

[Pangaea]

Matuse wrote...

Chaotic Commands is the key to beating mind flayers, since it makes you immune to their psy-blasts (and the confusion gaze of the umber hulks that 'flayers are frequently found with).

Each hit from a mindflayer drains 5 int, which is why people often recommend having at least an 11, since it lets you survive 3 attacks. Mindflayers do not have super good attack ratings, so even a fairly modest AC will help a lot.

Personally though, I just backstab them to little chunky bits. One chaotic commands, the boots of speed, and a thief with good hide/sneak skills, and cleaning out an entire dungeon of mind flayers is trivial.

Tried Chaotic command (and death ward), but I couldn't really tell that it did anything. Still got his brain sucked rather quickly. This was on Keldorn as well, who needs 3 hits.

Actually tried the backstab too, but he stands all the way up to the wall, so I can't get properly behind him, or even on his side. I can't walk far enough. Tried it, but it ended up with a normal attack, which obviously wasn't enough to kill him. Didn't get halfway across the floor, trying to head for the door, before I fell dead to the ground.

It seems utterly and completely impossible, and I got more frustrated than what is healthy trying to kill this devil's ****son (and I assume there are more of them in this area). Have very little else to do right now. I could mass sleep, pay the guild thing and then head off for Umar hills. Or there is the couple of thieves  I can meet somewhere. That's sort of the main story though, and I didn't want to progress that much further until we are more experienced. Game seems to be missing quite some middle ground to me. It's either relatively easy, or ridiculously difficult.

Could go to Watcher's Keep too, but I assume that is Durlag's Tower x10. Probably worth a bet at this point though.

[Jianson]

Have you been to Trademeet yet? The quests starting there are not too hard (relatively speaking). Otherwise, Umar Hills is probably the least difficult major quest at this stage.

Modifié par Jianson, 19 octobre 2012 - 11:06 .

[Pangaea]

Already done Trademeet. Sounds like Umar is my best bet then. Everything else is too difficult for me and I don't particularly fancy reloading ten times hoping to be lucky in one of them.

Kept hoping more sidequests would pop up, that were easier, but have checked the full world map now and there aren't any other areas that can show up on the map. Looked quite empty compared to the packed space of the BG1 world map. Hopefully Umar Hills is more manageable, though I need to watch for time as I don't want to lose the guild again.

Maybe having so many multiclassed characters is starting to hurt. Particularly not having a proper mage or cleric. Can only hope Imoen will have lots of XP when we get her back, cause it seems I need a high-level mage. Starting to understand the strength of dual-classing now.

[morbidest2]

For mindflayers, besides good AC, there are also potions (genius, dexterity) which boost intelligence during the battle - just watch for the dreaded stupidity symbol showing up on one of your party's small portraits, and then have slug down some brain juice. If Minsc is in the battle, have him get his IQ level up to 11 even before a fight starts. As your clerics get more powerful (another reason for using a "pure" cleric), they can start summoning Armored Skeletons which are very resistant to psychic attacks. Combined with poisoned gas, they make "sweetbreads" of mindflayers.
In general, Summons are just as useful as ever. Weak ones buy you time and powerful ones kill. Before cursing out wands, consider what level spell they deliver. In BG2, spells like sleep and charm are almost worthless, 3rd level spells are enemy specific and 4th and 5th level spells can be deadly.
Early in BG1 a kobold was a deadly enemy. You and your party are a lot tougher, why shouldn't your enemies be tougher? The problem is just that you have to be much more versatile in defending yourselves against all sorts of attacks. Magic is becoming equal with muscle. But you also have defensive magical options.

[Jianson]

There are some good fights and some minor and mid-sized quests in (or starting in) the Graveyard district. What have you done there so far?

Modifié par Jianson, 19 octobre 2012 - 01:05 .

[Pangaea]

Went to Umar Hills and have completely given up on the mind suckers for now. Like I said, they dragged my 20 intelligence protagonist to death in a matter of seconds. They must attack fast. Not convinced 11 vs 10 intelligence makes a great difference.

Reloaded that shop save I had, though, and filled up some wands instead. Was much surprised at how much cheaper it was in BG2 than BG1. There it costs and arm and a leg, but here it was no problem filling up whatever I wanted. Guess it's a reflection of their lesser usability. As you say though, summons should still be useful. For example against that damnable mind flayer. If he attacks my summons first, maybe - just maybe - we'll be able to pepper it full of arrows and bullets before they all drop. Tried to send in a fire elemental earlier, though, and he dropped dead before getting up to try to land a hit. A sigh of shock followed

Naturally enemies should be harder to kill because we are stronger too. But kobolds and whatnot were a non-issue in BG1 as soon as I learned to run around taunting them and peppering them with bullets. Everything is simply a lot more difficult and diverse in BG2, so it's tough for a first time player like myself. I'm not a complete idiot with spells and such, or I'd never make it this far, but (near) instant deaths are hard to go around. I now have two full fireball wands, two full frost wands, a summoning wand, two full cloudkill wands, and a magic missile wand, so that should make things easier for us -- provided I remember to use the darn things

Jianson, I've not really done anything in the graveyard district yet. Found the guy in a red robe and delivered a teddybear back, but that is all I think. Oh yes, helped some kid to a new 'parent' as well. Not done anything inside as the creatures I saw there had me running for the door.

Come to think of it, haven't done the guarded compound in Temple district either, and a mansion in the bridge district. Figured it was story related somehow, so left again (after walking over some traps in one of the cases).

If I could choose again, it would have been good to have had a pure (or dualed) mage coming into BG2, and use Anomen or Viconia instead or Yoshi for example (though I do need a thief). Looks like there are much fewer NPCs in BG2 though, so not a lot to choose from really. Anomen was annoying as hell, and Viconia evil. Would be lovely if Branwen was still around. If I manage to get through this game though, at least the Amn part, then I will probably choose differently next time around. For the first time, however, based on what I've heard, it's good to have Yoshi and Jaheira around, probably Aerie too.

[Jianson]

Looks like there are much fewer NPCs in BG2 though, so not a lot to choose from really.

That is indeed true. There are 9 fewer NPCs than in BG1 (8 if you include the ToB expansion). So we need to get by with roughly only 2/3 of the manpower.

This can get interesting in no-reload games, as the risk of getting chunked/stoned+destroyed/disintegrated/frozen to death (i.e. losing someone permantly) is much larger as well. I've been forced to use sub-optimal constellations more than once because of this. However, that can also get interesting, sinces it forces you to find the strengths of less-than-popular NPCs and do your best to run a party that still works.

Modifié par Jianson, 19 octobre 2012 - 07:42 .

[ussnorway]

Pangaea wrote...

Come to think of it, haven't done the guarded compound in Temple district either,

I'd stay away from there if I was you...

Sounds like it could be time to go and get sis?

[Matuse]

The mansion in the bridge district is NPC quest related. In most games, you never have cause to go in there, unless you want to rob it.

The guarded compound in the temple district is... um...rough. Great loot, but that is not a trivial area.

[morbidest2]

Pangaea wrote...

Went to Umar Hills and have completely given up on the mind suckers for now. Like I said, they dragged my 20 intelligence protagonist to death in a matter of seconds. They must attack fast. Not convinced 11 vs 10 intelligence makes a great difference.

If I could choose again, it would have been good to have had a pure (or dualed) mage coming into BG2, and use Anomen or Viconia instead or Yoshi for example (though I do need a thief). Looks like there are much fewer NPCs in BG2 though, so not a lot to choose from really. Anomen was annoying as hell, and Viconia evil. Would be lovely if Branwen was still around. If I manage to get through this game though, at least the Amn part, then I will probably choose differently next time around. For the first time, however, based on what I've heard, it's good to have Yoshi and Jaheira around, probably Aerie too.

Each mindflayer attack drops Intel by 5 points. For I=10, 2 successful attacks kill you. For I=11, it takes 3.

Jan, who you can meet in the Government district Park, is a M/T and a better thief than Yoshi, and the natural conversational foil for Minsc. Just be sure you like turnips!  

For your next run. take a look at the modding sites like Gibberlings 3, Spellhold Studios, etc.. Their are a number of clerics available, some of who can even romance female PCs. I think there might even be one mod that brings back Yeslick, who I always thought was the most useful clerical type in BG1.

[Pangaea]

Hehe, two warnings. Sounds like a couple of kobolds are waiting for me there....

Was out doing our thing in the Umar Hills, just getting to the temple area, and suddenly Jaheira buggers off (again!). Will she get back this time? It looked quite ominous. Reloaded and tried to pre-empt it by going to the so-called Harper place in the Docks, but it was vacant.

If you mean the pink one by "sis", ussnorway, then yes, I'd like to get her back. But I'm not sure how. Had a few brewskies now so best to postpone it, but the plan is to do the Umar Hills quest and then see what happens. Then perhaps do the Thief quest and see if that leads anywhere. It's what is supposed to move the story forward after all.

On NPCs, though, there isn't a great deal of pure classes around - at least not of good alignment that we meet early-ish on. I've said it a few times, but I miss Branwen, and even Dynaheir. Who do people tend to choose in good-ish parties?

I'm quite happy with the protagonist as I can backstack, hide in shadows (scout) and cast magic, but if I were to do this again, maybe it would be better to dual a fighter into a mage, for example at level 7, and take that into BG2. Multis seemed like a good idea in BG1, but there is so much XP and levels in BG2, that duals seem to be much better, at least of the cleric and mage type. Then again, that is one of the great upsides to this game. There is no 'right' way to play it, and just about any build can succeed (or so it seems - I doubt I could pull it off).

Just hope things will get a bit easier soon, that we catch up in levels and spells soon, because too many fights have been an utter nightmare recently.

[Grond0]

Pangaea wrote...

Grond0 wrote...

Rather than hit for damage mind flayers' standard attack is an intelligence drain.  However, they still have to hit you to cause the drain and their attack is not that great, so a character with low AC and high intelligence is pretty safe.  Try getting a particular characters effective AC as low as possible - there are lots of spells that can help with this, e.g. blur, improved invisibility, spirit armour, chant, defensive harmony etc. 

Tried some of that, but it didn't seem to do anything. Didn't use all of those together though. AC is already pretty low on Jaheira, Minsc and Keldorn though, -7 and -6, but they still get stunned on the first time of asking, and then devoured 1 second later. Well and good that each intelligence drain takes away 5, but when they hit like a machinegunner it's not really a great help. My 20 intelligence PC got murdered in a heartbeat as well.

That's the point of using chaotic commands.  That will prevent the stunning effect (characters who are stunned can be automatically hit) and mindflayers have 4 attacks per round so will very quickly drain stunned characters.  If you force them to attack normally they will struggle much more.  Standard mindflayers have a THAC0 of 15, which means they need a critical 20 to hit anyone with AC of -5 or below.  There are some stronger types as well, but I think their best THAC0 is 9, so a character with AC of -11 will only get hit by criticals.  It should be simple for you to get someone's AC down to that level by this stage of the game.

If you think things have been difficult recently then it might not be time to get Imoen yet - it won't get any easier then!  A character useful for good parties can be found as part of your Umar Hills adventures funnily enough.  There might even be a second one depending on what else you've done so far.  Don't worry about Jaheira - you will get the chance to get her back.

[Matuse]

I don't really like Nalia as a person (it really bugs me when she complains about how we're not helping the needy...WHILE LIBERATING HER HOME), but she's about the best choice as a mage while you are without Imoen.

But I really don't like her, so I only grab her for her quests and then drop her like a rock. Generally at that stage of the game, I only really want mages for Haste and Cloudkill, and you can do that with Aerie, Nalia, or Haer'Dalis.

Party composition is always one of my struggles. I prefer Viconia not only because of her Wisdom and Magic Resistance, but her ancestry becomes relevant later in the game and she has a lot of good commentary. Being evil is not a drawback when I can just cheat to keep her, which I have no problem with. The difficulty is that Viconia doesn't play well with Valgyar and Keldorn...they will eventually come to blows.

My favorites are Minsc, Imoen, Mazzy, Keldorn, Korgan, and Viconia. I usually play thief characters, so I'm never compelled to bring Jan. I know a lot of people like him, and his flasher bruiser mates can be used with uber effectiveness, but I find him grating with his turnip stories.

I always take Minsc, and I always take Imoen, and then I build the rest of the part around CHARNAME from that basis. I've never used Cernd for more than Trademeet and his personal quest, and I only use Edwin long enough to um...well, the thing that happens with Edwin. I know he's the best mage in the game, but I just can't live with him. Plus he and Minsc do not get along at all.

You can get Branwen via mods: http://www.davelevy....g2/branwen.html is one I found, but I have no idea how good it may be.

[Pangaea]

Grond0 wrote...

That's the point of using chaotic commands.  That will prevent the stunning effect (characters who are stunned can be automatically hit) and mindflayers have 4 attacks per round so will very quickly drain stunned characters.  If you force them to attack normally they will struggle much more.  Standard mindflayers have a THAC0 of 15, which means they need a critical 20 to hit anyone with AC of -5 or below.  There are some stronger types as well, but I think their best THAC0 is 9, so a character with AC of -11 will only get hit by criticals.  It should be simple for you to get someone's AC down to that level by this stage of the game.

If you think things have been difficult recently then it might not be time to get Imoen yet - it won't get any easier then!  A character useful for good parties can be found as part of your Umar Hills adventures funnily enough.  There might even be a second one depending on what else you've done so far.  Don't worry about Jaheira - you will get the chance to get her back.

Wow, 4 attacks per round. No wonder we're getting mauled by that beast. I've not gone back for that particular quest yet, it was too difficult and frustrating, but have now completed the Umar Hills. It was a bit tougher than expected as some of those foes hit mighty hard, but the final fight couldn't have gone better.

Rushed back to the Thief Guild for new instructions and such, but I wonder where this Joster chap is, who is supposed to pick up Renal's cut. Is he supposed to be in the guild when I  arrive? I've never seen him. Was too late back to the guild for the first time, then paid off Renal to get it back. Got back in good time so slept twice in the guild itself to pass time. Gave out new instructions, but Joster is nowhere to be seen. Have tried to exit and enter a few times and have looked all over the building for him, but no luck. Went to Renal too, but he just sent me packing saying I should tend to my guild. Is something messed up?

Since Jaheira has buggered off, I picked up Valygar in Umar Hills, since he said something about being needed to open the Sphere. Figured I'd try to do that now, hoping it won't be as difficult as some of the other tasks.

[ussnorway]

Pangaea wrote...

but I wonder where this Joster chap is

Has the local plod picked him up?

Pangaea wrote...
Since Jaheira has buggered off, I picked up Valygar in Umar Hills, since he said something about being needed to open the Sphere. Figured I'd try to do that now, hoping it won't be as difficult as some of the other tasks.

:whistle:Well it's not as bad as the mind flayers... you could just open the door then do the quest after but I won't muck up the surprise for you.

[Matuse]

The planar sphere isn't TOO bad...just when you get some automated help inside, let it do the work for you. Unless you have the shield of balduran...then you'd be ok.

Also, once the sphere is launched (plotwise, this is shortly after you enter, but you do trigger it, it won't just happen), you can't get back to town until the place is solved.

[Pangaea]

ussnorway wrote...

Pangaea wrote...

but I wonder where this Joster chap is

Has the local plod picked him up?

If you mean the guards, then no, not to my knowledge. One thief got busted as I had put more dangerous instructions, but not mention of any Joster. Don't think I've ever seen the bloke. Maybe I should try to reload, sleep somewhere else, and see if that helps. Don't want to lose the guild again, as I don't think I can buy it back then.

Pangaea wrote...
Since Jaheira has buggered off, I picked up Valygar in Umar Hills, since he said something about being needed to open the Sphere. Figured I'd try to do that now, hoping it won't be as difficult as some of the other tasks.

:whistle:Well it's not as bad as the mind flayers... you could just open the door then do the quest after but I won't muck up the surprise for you.

Bloody well hope it isn't as bad as the mind flayers. I've put those about on top of my Black Book of Hate list right now! 

I've probably been too vocal in here about problems I run into, because it seems impossible to read here without getting some spoilers, big or small (this is the only topic I read in this sub-forum). It would be best to just retreat away from this forum altogether really, but it's also a little fun to write about the game and get the odd helping hand here and there - especially when I run into brick walls.

[Pangaea]

Been quite a while now, but I finished the game for the first time yesterday. The SoA part and Watcher's Keep. Especially loved Watcher's Keep. So many ridiculously tough fights, but damn was it good to finally beat those guys!

Not started on ToB yet, but will.

A great game, though it didn't really have that WOW finish that I had kind of expected. Maybe I'm too spoiled from Planescape Torment.

Next time through I'm not doing the thief stronghold though. It was pretty boring to be honest, and a little annoying to keep going back to give new instructions and pay the henchman. Was interesting to play as a thief/mage though, and particularly useful to stealth around and throw cloudkill or fireballs at enemies and then quickly re-stealth and get away or repeat the process. A nice way to get most of them damaged before the real fight.

Minsc became an utter beast throughout the game, with just shy of 50% of the XP in the party. That's crazy. But he did duel-wield the Crom Faeyr and Flail of Ages with 4 attacks per round at the end, so no wonder he killed most things in front of him, with Keldorn doing a good job with the awesome Carsomyr. Look forward to continue the story in ToB now. Based on the cutscene/intro it will be rough, but hopefully lots of fun.

THAT fight on the first key on level five of Watcher's Keep.... In my opinion probably the toughest fight in the game (so far), only really rivalled by the Rogue Stone fight on the Bridge. We did manage, but spent 80 minutes (!) on the fight (I took some screenshots at the beginning and end). That is mental, but it was great to see the last foe fall. Greatly look forward to the über-dungeon in Project Eternity. If they manage to design it as well as Watcher's Keep, with interesting lore and stories on each level, it will be out of this world.

Thanks for the help earlier guys, it got me through some rough patches Thankfully the game got much more manageable as we levelled up, and the last fight was actually won on the first time of asking unbuffed - because I didn't expect the fight to be right there in the main room (thought we had to walk through that door with all those eyes around it). It was tough of course and Keldorn had some close calls saved by the +40HP potions, but once we managed to kill off his friends and unbuff him, it was only ever going one way.

Fantastic game, definitely one of the best I've played. And I still have ToB to do =)

[ussnorway]

If SoA is a 7 then most of ToB is 11... Have fun!

[Pangaea]

That's great to hear. Only played a little bit so far, but I like how it has started out. Some fairly tough fights too, where my fighters have taken a lot more damage than I'm used to.