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Why do people hate tactical play so much?


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#1
outsidefactor

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There is thread after thread on these boards of people discussing, in tones from the moderate to the outraged, 'farming'. Farming, as I understand the term, is utilising the strengths of particular maps to your advantage, and using an understanding of an enemy to minimise their advantage and take advantage of weaknesses.

To quote Sun Tzu: The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

In a very narrow application, Fire Base White versus Geth, this seems to inspire hatred.

I don’t have a problem playing a Random/Random gold match. I have been playing ME3 since day one, have a reasonably complete manifest and have stayed up to date with balance changes and read about tactics and kit builds on the forums (there seems to be as much bad advice as good, so my own judgement plays a big part). I am also fortunate to have 100 players from my region on my Origin friends list (I hate that max limit of 100), so, at any one time, I have 5 to 10 people I can hit up for games, on weekends. During the week, and if I wake up early and want a game, I am stuck with public lobbies, and don't mind a public game or two, at all. It gives me a chance to shine, as I am most certainly not the best player in my group of friends.

I have read about how hard a non-FBW/Geth gold match is to find; I personally do not find it so. If I feel like playing a biotic, I search for a random Reaper game; grenade or melee, I search for Cerberus. Either way, that usually drops me into an in progress game, with a decent crew, doing a gold random rotation. Not so hard. I have, however, been dropped into a lobby that’s been changed to FBW/Geth as I was joining. If I don’t want to play that THEN I JUST LEAVE. No skin off my nose.So, to return to my original point, what is the complaining about? It is an issue that only affects gold players, who are minority of players in the community (silver is still number 1, if my memory serves me correctly), and a subset of those. No-one I directly know complains about the use of tactical play/farming. Many of the people I play with regularly don’t play FBW/Geth tactically because they want the extra challenge/risk of the ‘headless chicken’ approach. That being said, why should the smarter, lower risk play style be considered less legitimate? If someone wants to play that way, why shouldn’t they? If you don’t want to play that way, then don’t; just don’t expect everyone else to select the same, riskier path. You play for your reasons, other people play for theirs. Why must it be your way only?

If taking cover is not a legitimate tactic, why hasn’t the Bioware response to farming been to remove the ability to take cover? Simple: it’s a legitimate tactic or it wouldn’t have been in the game in the first place. If holding the bottom room on Firebase White is not a legitimate tactic, why hasn’t Bioware removed the desks from the room to remove cover? Because that’s probably why the room was designed like it was in the first place: to hold it, from cover.

So, if the people complaining are minority, if an amazingly vocal one, and the issue is easily avoided by not joining the matches that so offend your delicate sensibilities, why do we now have the Geth drone of doom, super stunning and spawns that ignore play presence, since the latest patch?

Firebase White Geth Gold is NOT the fastest way to make credits; it’s not even the easiest. Holding the central, tiny room on Glacier with a warp bubble adept, slayer for slashbooms, a Demolisher for the pylon and an infiltrator for missions and you can do Platinum runs in 20 to 25 minutes, with full extraction, and very low consumable usage. Players with poor quality weapons can pull it off because it’s very power intensive. So, where is Bioware’s rage against Platinum farms?

FBW/Geth is well known, well understood and doesn’t require co-ordination: everyone knows how it works, so you can just do it with random players; everyone heads for the right place and does their job. This must be very frustrating to a company trying to drive ‘casual’ players to buy Bioware/Xbox/PSN points to exchange for packs. Here is a way for a casual, mostly silver player (the majority, remember) to kick it up for a couple of games to make a little extra cash, to get the better kit, to be able to play the random/random ‘headless chicken’ technique games that some people seem to expect them to play. Instead, here comes Bioware, leveraging the complaints of a minority to try and stamp out a practice that is financially inconvenient for them.

All this seems most ridiculous as none of the changes have really made FBW/Geth farms any less desirable. The tactics are still just as sound and still mitigate risk. It's just that now the ONLY way to succeed against Geth, on gold, is to farm, for players with poor equipment and less experience. Instead of a disincentive to farm it's just a stronger incentive to farm. And, each time the Geth are made harder, it will just make farming more AND MORE desirable, until they are so hard EVERYONE will have to farm, or fail, simply because there is no other tactic that will work.

I have the luxury of free time to spend above and beyond my in-game time to read the forums about techniques, builds and balance changes. I chat to people in game and out of game, and am a member of an active group of regular players. I am NOT the majority. I am one of the lucky few. Many weekend players get maybe three to five games a week. Why begrudge them a gold farm or two, just because you can’t be bothered to search for another game? And why is Bioware's reaction so disproportionate to the problem, and in the wrong direction? Surely a better response from Bioware would be to change the search method to allow people to filter out maps/enemies they don't like? Why make Geth such a miserable ordeal for people playing non-farms?

Modifié par outsidefactor, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:07 .


#2
BiO

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Too much of anything is never good. Nothing wrong about camping strategies, but when every random public game is the same thing over and over and over again, it can get on one's nerves.

Also, sorry, but I didn't read that wall of text :I

#3
ripper000

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this wall of text just tried to take my soul

#4
N7Kopper

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It's because I want U/U/G when I search U/U/G, not FBW/G/G.
Luckily, it isn't really eating into microtransaction profits yet, as is evidenced by the new upcoming DLC.

#5
outsidefactor

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BiO_MaN wrote...

Too much of anything is never good. Nothing wrong about camping strategies, but when every random public game is the same thing over and over and over again, it can get on one's nerves.

Also, sorry, but I didn't read that wall of text :I


That was my point: that's not the case. It's easy to avoid FBW/Geth: just search for something else. Why screw with something that you can just avoid? Was there, really, something to fix? Why does making Geth harder do anything but actually make low risk play anything but MORE attractive?

N7Kopper wrote...

It's because I want U/U/G when I search U/U/G, not FBW/G/G.
Luckily, it isn't really eating into microtransaction profits yet, as is evidenced by the new upcoming DLC.


So, why make Geth harder? Why note allow a search filter to AVOID FBW? My point is the fix doesn't address the problem, not that there is really a problem to begin with.

Modifié par outsidefactor, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:13 .


#6
Star fury

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tl;dr.

#7
outsidefactor

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Star fury wrote...

tl;dr.


And yet you bothered to respond... If you didn't bother to read it, why post? Obviously it wasn't intended for you.

#8
Fox-snipe

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I can't possibly read that mass of unformatted text, so I picked a couple things that stood out...

outsidefactor wrote...
There is thread after thread on these boards of people discussing, in tones from the moderate to the outraged, 'farming'. Farming, as I understand the term, is utilising the strengths of particular maps to your advantage, and using an understanding of an enemy to minimise their advantage and take advantage of weaknesses.


No, farming is when you do the same thing, over and over, ad infinitum, because that's all you can manage to be successful at (in terms of your goal).  Farming is also generally reserved for when people ignore playing the game to its true spirit for self-serving, egotistical purposes (money in most cases).

In a very narrow application, Fire Base White versus Geth, this seems to inspire hatred.
.....
Firebase White Geth Gold is NOT the fastest way to make credits; it’s not even the easiest.


Because that's what started the whole farming-for-credits thing.

Holding the central, tiny room on Glacier with a warp bubble adept, slayer for slashbooms, a Demolisher for the pylon and an infiltrator for missions and you can do Platinum runs in 20 to 25 minutes, with full extraction, and very low consumable usage. Players with poor quality weapons can pull it off because it’s very power intensive.


Still farming.  Just not the "original."  The fact people still resort to Geth on White is what makes people so pissed off about it.  It's boring!  It's also the "safest" since you have that back door to escape (or two other exits).  Glacier has one exit, and it's usually filled with enemies.

So, where is Bioware’s rage against Platinum farms?


Bioware doesn't really care, not enough to have any "rage" about it.  It does show that White could use some rework, and they may do it, but it's not a huge priority for them.  At least it takes time & effort, compared to, say, missile glitching.

And why is Bioware's reaction so disproportionate to the problem, and in the wrong direction? Surely a better response from Bioware would be to change the search method to allow people to filter out maps/enemies they don't like? Why make Geth such a miserable ordeal for people playing non-farms?


Unproven that Geth's adjustments are directly related.  Maybe partially, but the Geth are simply beyond broken.  They're actually easier to survive when you farm/camp (most people farm).

As for the bolded line, too much trouble for how "small" the possible options are.  Far easier to just get the Geth playable.  It's not as simple as just throwing a menu system in.  You'd need to rework the entire matchmaking back-end, and that's likely more prone to killing something more critical.  A similar, less major (but likely still involved) change would be to changing "Unknown" to "Random."  Then it could try to find lobbies that really were set to no specific enemy.

The Geth were easy to farm because of their flaws (pathing, AI behavior, mechanics, spawns) and bugs (Pyro grabbing).  You can farm any enemy really, but people abuse the Geth because, well, they suck.  And sadly the Geth are just so broken that, well, it sucks for the rest of us strangely enough.  Not directly related, but a miserable set of circumstances.


All said and done, I still say famers are loser. Posted Image

Modifié par Fox-snipe, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:19 .


#9
Chealec

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Umm - you start off on an incorrect premise of what constitutes "farming" and then go onto defend that premise; it's a bit like saying "oranges are purple and here's why purple things are awesome".

#10
JiceDuresh

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Becuase some people like not knowing who they face or what map it will be one but white geth gold is all you get 75% of the time. So no, sarching for something specific isn't a good enough work around when the idea of 'Unknown' is that it should be unknown. Not "somtimes unknown, but most of the time you're going to get droped into wave two farm mode."

#11
Arppis

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It is rather retarted to make the Geth harder because of farmers. It will hurt people like me.

But hey, I'm silver player mostly, play a bit of gold with friends thou. I have no problem finding other lobbies, because people don't farm silver and that's cool. But yes, when I try to find random gold game, it's always Firebase White with Geth. So I play on silver, because I want to be able to do some other factions and maps. I don't like the maps, because I have played White since demo days and geth are just annoying.

#12
Leonia

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I wouldn't be opposed to an option to opt out of farm matches. It's not my preferred way to play, some people like it but I'd rather run around the map and try different things out every time. I've been asking for more search options for awhile now, not sure if/when it will happen.

Modifié par leonia42, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:22 .


#13
Arppis

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leonia42 wrote...

I wouldn't be opposed to an option to opt out of farm matches. It's not my preferred way to play, some people like it but I'd rather run around the map and try different things out every time. I've been asking for more search options for awhile now, not sure if/when it will happen.


Same here... Hope the DLC will fix this. So I can finaly give gold randoms a serious try.

#14
BridgeBurner

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You are confusing "tactical play" with "abusing the AI because you're too incompetent to beat the difficulty without using some pansy cop-out strategy".

The first person who discovered the FBW gimmick was good enough to have identified the way to exploit the AI. Everyone else who copied it isn't playing tactically, they're playing lazily and pathetically.

When you copy something you've seen others doing because you're too lazy and incompetent to beat the difficulty level you've chosen without using some gimmick strategy which exploits the stupidity of the AI... that's not "tactical" play, that's easy mode cop-out.

Plus, if you rambo every single game with every single kit, like I do, then its WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more fun. And its faster.

Bioware don't want people farming, because it defeats the purpose of having difficulty levels in the first place if you're going to circumvent them by abusing maps and gimmick tactics.

#15
outsidefactor

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Annomander wrote...

You are confusing "tactical play" with "abusing the AI because you're too incompetent to beat the difficulty without using some pansy cop-out strategy".

The first person who discovered the FBW gimmick was good enough to have identified the way to exploit the AI. Everyone else who copied it isn't playing tactically, they're playing lazily and pathetically.

When you copy something you've seen others doing because you're too lazy and incompetent to beat the difficulty level you've chosen without using some gimmick strategy which exploits the stupidity of the AI... that's not "tactical" play, that's easy mode cop-out.

Plus, if you rambo every single game with every single kit, like I do, then its WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more fun. And its faster.

Bioware don't want people farming, because it defeats the purpose of having difficulty levels in the first place if you're going to circumvent them by abusing maps and gimmick tactics.


Wow, miss the point much? I didn't say you HAVE to play that way, I just said that suggesting other people should ONLY play your way was wrong. Sure, you enjoy that. Maybe, other people don't. And there is nothing wrong with that as it's a game and the point is to enjoy yourself, in whatever way you can/do.

So, if you don't like to farm, then don't farm; just don't complain when others do.

Modifié par outsidefactor, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:38 .


#16
CronicleChicken

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Fox-snipe wrote...

I can't possibly read that mass of unformatted text, so I picked a couple things that stood out...

outsidefactor wrote...
There is thread after thread on these boards of people discussing, in tones from the moderate to the outraged, 'farming'. Farming, as I understand the term, is utilising the strengths of particular maps to your advantage, and using an understanding of an enemy to minimise their advantage and take advantage of weaknesses.


No, farming is when you do the same thing, over and over, ad infinitum, because that's all you can manage to be successful at (in terms of your goal).  Farming is also generally reserved for when people ignore playing the game to its true spirit for self-serving, egotistical purposes (money in most cases).

In a very narrow application, Fire Base White versus Geth, this seems to inspire hatred.
.....
Firebase White Geth Gold is NOT the fastest way to make credits; it’s not even the easiest.


Because that's what started the whole farming-for-credits thing.

Holding the central, tiny room on Glacier with a warp bubble adept, slayer for slashbooms, a Demolisher for the pylon and an infiltrator for missions and you can do Platinum runs in 20 to 25 minutes, with full extraction, and very low consumable usage. Players with poor quality weapons can pull it off because it’s very power intensive.


Still farming.  Just not the "original."  The fact people still resort to Geth on White is what makes people so pissed off about it.  It's boring!  It's also the "safest" since you have that back door to escape (or two other exits).  Glacier has one exit, and it's usually filled with enemies.

So, where is Bioware’s rage against Platinum farms?


Bioware doesn't really care, not enough to have any "rage" about it.  It does show that White could use some rework, and they may do it, but it's not a huge priority for them.  At least it takes time & effort, compared to, say, missile glitching.

And why is Bioware's reaction so disproportionate to the problem, and in the wrong direction? Surely a better response from Bioware would be to change the search method to allow people to filter out maps/enemies they don't like? Why make Geth such a miserable ordeal for people playing non-farms?


Unproven that Geth's adjustments are directly related.  Maybe partially, but the Geth are simply beyond broken.  They're actually easier to survive when you farm/camp (most people farm).

As for the bolded line, too much trouble for how "small" the possible options are.  Far easier to just get the Geth playable.  It's not as simple as just throwing a menu system in.  You'd need to rework the entire matchmaking back-end, and that's likely more prone to killing something more critical.  A similar, less major (but likely still involved) change would be to changing "Unknown" to "Random."  Then it could try to find lobbies that really were set to no specific enemy.

The Geth were easy to farm because of their flaws (pathing, AI behavior, mechanics, spawns) and bugs (Pyro grabbing).  You can farm any enemy really, but people abuse the Geth because, well, they suck.  And sadly the Geth are just so broken that, well, it sucks for the rest of us strangely enough.  Not directly related, but a miserable set of circumstances.


All said and done, I still say famers are loser. Posted Image


How many credits do you have?

#17
VerySeed

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 OP you should become an elitist:wizard:. Heres a good guide.

http://social.biowar.../index/14390055

#18
outsidefactor

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JiceDuresh wrote...

Becuase some people like not knowing who they face or what map it will be one but white geth gold is all you get 75% of the time. So no, sarching for something specific isn't a good enough work around when the idea of 'Unknown' is that it should be unknown. Not "somtimes unknown, but most of the time you're going to get droped into wave two farm mode."


That is a good point: players should be able to select whether they are seaching for in-progress, not, or either. Getting dropped into a in-progress game is frustrating if you're not looking for that. I mostly don't mind, but I can see how others would be frustrated.

#19
SMBTheExile

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The problem it's caused, to my mind, is that the Geth have been buffed so much you now have to specifically prepare for them - if you stumble across them in U/U and you're not fortunate enough to have the right mods on you can be in huge trouble.

I also think it's encouraged Bioware to leave the obvious massive cheats the Geth have in.

#20
synapsefire

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Obviously I didn't bother to read the wall of text but does this guy confuse hiding behind counters with tactical play?

#21
VerySeed

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synapsefire wrote...

Obviously I didn't bother to read the wall of text but does this guy confuse hiding behind counters with tactical play?


Think so.

Edit: Technically you can call it tactical play, just not smart/effective/fast tactical play.

Modifié par VerySeed, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:52 .


#22
ParatrooperSean

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synapsefire wrote...

Obviously I didn't bother to read the wall of text but does this guy confuse hiding behind counters with tactical play?


Although I find it boring, yes it absolutely IS tactical play in the truest sense. How is it not?

#23
ParatrooperSean

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VerySeed wrote...

synapsefire wrote...

Obviously I didn't bother to read the wall of text but does this guy confuse hiding behind counters with tactical play?


Think so.

Edit: Technically you can call it tactical play, just not smart/effective/fast tactical play.


Well, it's not fast because it is effective.

#24
Gunboat Diplomat

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I think the fact that farming takes place in a single location against a specific enemy is actually a good thing. You just have to look for a different map/enemy when looking for a pug. People should try that, instead of posting the same thread over and over and over ... and over again on the bsn.

#25
kiko1287

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But seriously, I really don't see what the problem is.

+1 OP