176 réponses à ce sujet

[akimboDEEZ]

I agree with kiraTsukasa. I don't feel like reading that entire thing but i will respond to what i think is right with the amount i did read. There is a thin line between Tactical play and camping. You do not know how many times (in other games) i have been called a camper yet i have literally just got there and crouched for a second. sometimes its just to reload my weapon. But in a game like mass effect it should not matter. In fact The Run-and-gun approach in wrong if you look from the POV of the game. This is especially true if your using a squishy character. You are defending the fire base not attacking.

[Bleachrude]

Anything that requires a thought process beyond cheese is to hard for the public, so they take the easiest route and fail. I just joined/left 3 games this morning with people camping in panic room FBG on GOLD! Last game I was on krogan invincible and just walked around melee/charging everything and pretended I was playing solo. Didn't even bother to raise them when all 3 of them got dropped in panic room.

keep in mind though that krogans (vanguards especially) are the only race/kit that can actually do that....An asari adept can't go running around out of cover

[megawug]

Well, having sit through and read the text, I think it can be summed up as "Why are non-FBW farmers being punished by the newly OP'ed Geth?"

Right now, the only advice I have is to run with a tech/overload team and characters that are immune to stun lock. And make sure to complain to BW about the Geth "improvements".

[kmmd60]

Well, camping is legitimate way to play the game. Personally, I don't really mind farming since I can play along with them or get out of the counter and blast the Geth on my own. I just don't believe that farming is the most effective way to gain credit.

Farming tends to make the player 'soft'. They believe that the only way to fight the Geth is to cower behind cover and let them come to you. Bad thinking, given initiative to your enemies means you're already half lose. Sun tzu also stated that warfare is based on deception, sitting behind the counter isn't one.

[N7 Whiskey]

People don't hate tactical playing. FBWGG is faaaar from being an ideal tactical situation. There are easier, safer & faster ways to finish Gold (and Platinum) that don't require camping behind a control panel (Sun Tzu would draw and quarter you for suggesting such a thing).

While its not as bad as it used to be, searching for U/U/G does turn up a large percentage of FBWGG. Luckily I only have to play 2 to 3 PUGS a week because I've built a decent sized group of people to play with. Only downside is I can only play with 3 of them at a time.

[Uh Cold]

Yes because farming is tactical play, das ignorant.
I would define tactical play as working with a group in a manner that brings the most enjoyment within a real game, not abusing a table or corner or room in a farming game.

Example would be 2 novaguards frontline agro.
Drell adept reave mid support
Inf. with sniper for rear support on turrets and straglers, aswell as armored targets.
Constantly moving, and constantly forcing front spawns to avoid a rear ambush.

People use the term speed-run like it's going out of style, good players speed run regardless of map and enemy. Farming is a crutch for players who lack good twitch reaction skill and situational response that make them a good player in the first place.
Good players adapt, not mold into a strategy and use it over and over.

Also didn't read btw.

[Ziegrif]

Skimmed through the post.
Always like people refrencing Sun Tzu.
Thing is there's a metric ton of these games.
And sometimes outside of hosting your own there's a hard time looking for a UUG game.
Once had to drudge through 10 games just to find something interesting.
The tactic is valid and effective but BY GOD IT'S SO DAMN BOOOOOORING!!!
And yes I have no problem with the tactic or the people. They can do whatever they want. But when it gets hard to actually find a lobby with reapers and the thing just keeps searching and searxhing and ends up in FBWGG it kinda starts to chap my hide.
Course I could host, but I really dunno if my connection is good enough for that and try not to host so people don't end up rage quitting due to lag and wasting their consumables.
If I end up in a farm game I'll stay. Consumables are there to be used after all.

Also relevant.

Come farm with me let's farm, let's farm away.~
If you can use some exotic N7 moves.~
There's this Geth far, far away.~
Come on and farm with me, let's farm, let's farm away.~

Come farm with me, let's float down to White.
In counter land there's a one-man pylon.~
And she'll hog her booms just for her!~
Come on farm with me, Let's take off into Geth.~

Once I get you down there where the counters are OP.~
We'll just camp, Fire eyed.~
Once I get you down here I'll be holding you so near!~
You may hear all the Geth scream cause were together!~

Weather wise it's such a flamy, rockety day!~
Just say the words and we'll beat the Geth!~
Down to the consensus!~
It's perfect for a credit honeymoon, they say.~
Oh babe! Pack up let's farm away!!~
And don't tell your elitist friends!~

Modifié par Ziegrif, 07 octobre 2012 - 04:22 .

[Chi_Mangetsu]

RvB summed it up quite well.

Red: Oh you f*cking camping b*tch!
Blue: It's a legitimate strategy!

Sure, it may be legit, but it doesn't make you any less of a b*tch. Having said that, it just gets boring after a while. Then again I don't play MMOs for similar reasons.

[OuterRim]

Farming is when you repeat the same thing over and over again to maximize your time to credit ratio to your skill level. This is why camping behind the counter on FBW is just as much farming as doing speed runs repetively on FBG. The only big difference is that the skill requirement for speedruns is greater, but its still about maximizing your credit to time ratio.

And BW created farming when they created the RND store.

Some people enjoy farming once in awhile, but there are those who take it to the extreme and do it constantly. This is what generates the hate. When half the lobies you find in Plat are FBW or FBG then that is what causes the hate for farming.

The solutions are to either dump the RND store and credit reward system (won't happen) or to add a location filter to the UU search function when looking for gold/plat lobbies.

[palmof40sorrows]

outsidefactor wrote...

Star fury wrote...

tl;dr.

And yet you bothered to respond... If you didn't bother to read it, why post? Obviously it wasn't intended for you.

Yeah, I hate that. tl;dr. crap. 

I agree with your post, OP. Also, some people (like myself) do a FBWGG run when waiting on the phone with customer service, or calling our siblings or whatnot. It's easy enough to do without needing your full attention, so might as well get some creds while doing other stuff.

Modifié par palmof40sorrows, 07 octobre 2012 - 04:55 .

[Zeromarro4]

I have multiple tactics for each map... Except goddess I hate that map. However farming is repeatedly doing the same strategy on the same map and exploiting glitches (ie rocket glitch, that fwb doorway, etc). So though I could not bring myself to read your entire post I somewhat agree with you.

[ParatrooperSean]

RedJohn wrote...

It depends on what you see as "tactical", for me tactical is effectiveness and effectiveness means kill faster and without too much noise, which means end a platinum game in -18 minutes, that also implies that sit down in a corner is non-productive and makes the game slow and with the time the team could get badly surrounded.

Tactical playing = kill fast.
Camping = not productive.

That's like saying it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

Actions and attributes that are "tactical" are ones that gain advantage in combat. In certain situations camping does exactly that.

Effectiveness doesn't necessarily mean kill faster. Effectiveness can only be measured according to a specific goal. If your goal is the finish the match as quickly as possible, then sure. Not everyone cares about speed, but everyone cares about completing the match successfully. For the latter goal sitting behind the desk on W/G/G is effective.

[78stonewobble]

OuterRim wrote...

Farming is when you repeat the same thing over and over again to maximize your time to credit ratio to your skill level. This is why camping behind the counter on FBW is just as much farming as doing speed runs repetively on FBG. The only big difference is that the skill requirement for speedruns is greater, but its still about maximizing your credit to time ratio.

And BW created farming when they created the RND store.

Some people enjoy farming once in awhile, but there are those who take it to the extreme and do it constantly. This is what generates the hate. When half the lobies you find in Plat are FBW or FBG then that is what causes the hate for farming.

The solutions are to either dump the RND store and credit reward system (won't happen) or to add a location filter to the UU search function when looking for gold/plat lobbies.

Orrrrr .... people complaining about farming / camping / fbwgg could grow up and realise the following:

My idea of fun is not necessarily the same as others idea of fun.

People doing what they like  farming / camping / fbwgg is NOT part of a masterplan to inconvenience you or your way of playing... And it is, at most, an inconvenience, that you have a lower chance of getting your favorite settings when searching among many settings.

It does not prevent you, in any way, from making your own game to match what you want.

If you think the matchmaking feature is lacking. Then complain about that.

[Schneidend]

Abusing AI isn't a legitimate "tactic."

Crouching and shooting over low cover instead of actually taking cover in ME1 wasn't "tactical" either. It confused the AI and caused the enemies to make themselves highly vulnerable.

Did you kill Drizzt in BG1 by "tactically" standing behind a body of water his pathfinding didn't know how to get around?

Modifié par Schneidend, 07 octobre 2012 - 05:42 .

[mykejm]

Imagine some lunatic has wired a bomb to your couch and will detonate it unless you complete full extraction on FBWGG with some random players, would you do anything BESIDES camping behind the counters? Be honest.

I guess what I'm saying is it's hard for me to criticize people for maximizing their tactical advantages on that map. But I do find it boring; and it's frustrating if you want to play a random match to see nothing but FBW.

[ParatrooperSean]

Schneidend wrote...

Abusing AI isn't a legitimate "tactic."

Crouching and shooting over low cover instead of actually taking cover in ME1 wasn't "tactical" either. It confused the AI and caused the enemies to make themselves highly vulnerable.

Did you kill Drizzt in BG1 by "tactically" standing behind a body of water his pathfinding didn't know how to get around?

Improperly using a word doesn't magically change its definition for your convenience. I'm referring to your creative definition of abuse.

Is using choke points "abusing" AI? What about spamming a spawn point with grenades at a carefully timed moment? How about Shadow Striking a Brute when he's crouched and just about to charge? Basically everyone who plays with any sort of thought is uitilizing tactics to defeat the AI they're against. One particular tactic doesn't magically become "abuse" because you don't like it.

Modifié par ParatrooperSean, 07 octobre 2012 - 06:03 .

[Epique Phael767]

 People don't like tactical play because going off on your own is soooo much more 1337.

[Oz not Ozzy]

ParatrooperSean wrote...

Effectiveness can only be measured according to a specific goal. If your goal is the finish the match as quickly as possible, then sure. Not everyone cares about speed, but everyone cares about completing the match successfully.

Personally, I never understood this obsession some people seem to have with completing games quickly.... to me it just screams 'farming' whether it's to gain XP (and consequently N7 rating) or credits (and consequently characters, weapons and/or equipment).

[Schneidend]

ParatrooperSean wrote...

Improperly using a word doesn't magically change its definition for your convenience. I'm referring to your creative definition of abuse.

Is using choke points "abusing" AI? What about spamming a spawn point with grenades at a carefully timed moment? How about Shadow Striking a Brute when he's crouched and just about to charge? Basically everyone who plays with any sort of thought is uitilizing tactics to defeat the AI they're against. One particular tactic doesn't magically become "abuse" because you don't like it.

It's not abuse because it is effective, it is abuse because it literally confuses the AI and causes it to make poor decisions that make absolutely no sense, like the desks in White causing geth to suicidally walk right up to you without fail. Granted, the AI already sometimes does silly things, like Cerberus Troopers climbing ladders while you're right in front of them, but as far as I know there's no way to easily reproduce that behavior. If you could reproduce that behavior, doing so would be an abuse.

Spawn points are game mechanics, so taking advantage of them is intentional. Throwing grenades at a spawn point with an Atlas in it causes the Atlas to shoot at you, not spin around in circles or stop attacking. Throwing grenades at a spawn doesn't disrupt an enemy's script or pathfinding.

Choke points are fine, too. Reduce the effectiveness of enemy numbers. But, if standing or taking cover in a particular place, in a particular arrangement makes the AI act like an idiot, and you intentionally reproduce this, it's an abuse. Again, every player taking the desks in White causes the geth to act suicidal and stupid and will make no attempt to flank you like they normally do.

Shadow Striking a Brute when he charges causes him to miss, and he thereafter goes about acting like a Brute as normal. That's strategy. If it caused him to not charge at all or wander off aimlessly not attacking anything because you broke his pathfinding/AI/aggro, then that would be abuse.

[Oz not Ozzy]

Schneidend wrote...

It's not abuse because it is effective, it is abuse because it literally confuses the AI and causes it to make poor decisions that make absolutely no sense, like the desks in White causing geth to suicidally walk right up to you without fail. Granted, the AI already sometimes does silly things, like Cerberus Troopers climbing ladders while you're right in front of them, but as far as I know there's no way to easily reproduce that behavior. If you could reproduce that behavior, doing so would be an abuse.

Spawn points are game mechanics, so taking advantage of them is intentional. Throwing grenades at a spawn point with an Atlas in it causes the Atlas to shoot at you, not spin around in circles or stop attacking. Throwing grenades at a spawn doesn't disrupt an enemy's script or pathfinding.

Choke points are fine, too. Reduce the effectiveness of enemy numbers. But, if standing or taking cover in a particular place, in a particular arrangement makes the AI act like an idiot, and you intentionally reproduce this, it's an abuse. Again, every player taking the desks in White causes the geth to act suicidal and stupid and will make no attempt to flank you like they normally do.

Really? So I must have been imagining all the troopers, hunters pyros and rocket troopers that have shot at me and team mates after sneaking around and in the back door.... or maybe I should check no-one snuck something illicit into my tobacco pouch?
[/sarcasm]

The AI programming is every bit as much a "game mechanic" as spawn points, choke points or anything else you care to mention.... and FBW is far from the only map where the Geth will happily plod towards a fortified position to be cut down in droves.

In any conflict, a good commander will adjust his tactics and strategy to take into account the behaviour of the opposing force. If the Geth are stupid enough to perform a frontal assault on a fortified postion then maintaining that position is a tactically sound strategy.

So, basically, your issue seems to boil down to the fact that the Geth's approach to the lab is unrealistic and comes as a direct result of limitations decided upon by the programmers.... well spawn points are also unrealistic and also there as a direct result of limitations decided upon by the programmers. If exploiting one is an abuse then so is exploiting the other.... yet you seem to regard the latter approach as a legitimate tactic.... could that be because it is one you choose to employ?

EDIT: Oh... and, by the way, if you look through history you will find countless examples of armies being wiped out due to the employment of 'suicidal' tactics by terrible commanders.

Modifié par Oz not Ozzy, 07 octobre 2012 - 06:54 .

[ParatrooperSean]

Schneidend wrote...

ParatrooperSean wrote...

Improperly using a word doesn't magically change its definition for your convenience. I'm referring to your creative definition of abuse.

Is using choke points "abusing" AI? What about spamming a spawn point with grenades at a carefully timed moment? How about Shadow Striking a Brute when he's crouched and just about to charge? Basically everyone who plays with any sort of thought is uitilizing tactics to defeat the AI they're against. One particular tactic doesn't magically become "abuse" because you don't like it.

It's not abuse because it is effective, it is abuse because it literally confuses the AI and causes it to make poor decisions that make absolutely no sense, like the desks in White causing geth to suicidally walk right up to you without fail. Granted, the AI already sometimes does silly things, like Cerberus Troopers climbing ladders while you're right in front of them, but as far as I know there's no way to easily reproduce that behavior. If you could reproduce that behavior, doing so would be an abuse.

Spawn points are game mechanics, so taking advantage of them is intentional. Throwing grenades at a spawn point with an Atlas in it causes the Atlas to shoot at you, not spin around in circles or stop attacking. Throwing grenades at a spawn doesn't disrupt an enemy's script or pathfinding.

Choke points are fine, too. Reduce the effectiveness of enemy numbers. But, if standing or taking cover in a particular place, in a particular arrangement makes the AI act like an idiot, and you intentionally reproduce this, it's an abuse. Again, every player taking the desks in White causes the geth to act suicidal and stupid and will make no attempt to flank you like they normally do.

Shadow Striking a Brute when he charges causes him to miss, and he thereafter goes about acting like a Brute as normal. That's strategy. If it caused him to not charge at all or wander off aimlessly not attacking anything because you broke his pathfinding/AI/aggro, then that would be abuse.

AI doesn't get "confused," that's a state that requires actual thought. The Geth would be closing the distance on you whether you were behind a counter or not. In fact, if you camp any location on any map against any enemy, they will all come to you. That's not "abuse"

[Kaseladen]

Because when looking for a match, you find one map used against a single enemy type with no variation.
How is it hard to see how this hurts a community?

[Trogdorx]

tl;dr

Most people complaining here seemingly don't have the attention span for tactical play. I think if you tossed a crumpled up piece of tinfoil past them they'd leap out of their chair and bat it under the couch.

Simple fix for those bored by the monotony of FBWG ad infinatum: HOST YOUR OWN @$%@$%ING LOBBY.

Modifié par Trogdorx, 07 octobre 2012 - 08:22 .

[Kaseladen]

Hosting your own lobby doesn't work when people don't bother looking for unknown matches. Its fine in theory to sit and say 'host one yourself' but I've had the game in the background hosting unknkwn/unknown/gold for the last hour and not one person has joined.

[Trogdorx]

Sounds like you're outvoted then.