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Why do people hate tactical play so much?


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#76
Ashen One

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Trogdorx wrote...

tl;dr

Most people complaining here seemingly don't have the attention span for tactical play.


>Implying "tactical play" requires a person to sit in the same spot.

Every time I reposition myself in such a way as to flank a large group of enemies, operate within a group of enemies without dying or avoid being flanked, I am employing more advanced tactics than what has become generally accepted strategy. (Firebase White camping is a perfect example)

It has little to do with having a short attention span, it's just that a lot of us here on the forum are actually good enough to play without camping.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 07 octobre 2012 - 08:31 .


#77
Trogdorx

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Except even when you're counter camping, you're not staying in the same spot. You still have to move to grab, resupply ammo, get a better angle on your target. Run away because some moron thinks he's helping by 'flanking' but instead is just making the enemy spawn behind you...

Even when I play a roaming class like my kroguard, if I see other members of my team are camping, I don't say 'pff lol, that's for noobs!' I stick around and protect them, or charge into the middle of the group they're engaging to soak fire, so they can spend more time shooting and less time recovering.

Modifié par Trogdorx, 07 octobre 2012 - 08:39 .


#78
Ashen One

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Trogdorx wrote...

Except even when you're counter camping, you're not staying in the same spot. You still have to move to grab, resupply ammo, get a better angle on your target. Run away because some moron thinks he's helping by 'flanking' but instead is just making the enemy spawn behind you...


Don't try to glorify camping to make it seem more advanced than it is.

Campers on Firebase White sit in the same spot and force the enemies to walk through a choke point. It doesn't matter which of the 4 unblocked spawn points the enemies decide to arrive at, and the players don't even need to know because the enemies are forced through the same choke point. Information like that would be more beneficial to people using advanced tactics (predicting spawns and crushing them before they can spread out) They don't need to "get a better angle" on a target," because it's sitting at a choke point, exposed. Campers on Firebase White don't need to know that waves 5, 8, 9, and 10 will spawn bosses in pairs (three primes vs Geth) because they aren't on a mission to decimate an enemy spawn in 5 seconds, they're trying to survive the onslaught. they're not at risk of turning a corner and running into 2 Atlases and a Phantom spawn.

It's generally accepted strategy to camp on Firebase White because it's so mindnumbingly easy that anyone can do it. If it was the other way around (that is advanced tactics being generally accepted strategy) then the Firebase White/Glacier complaints would be quite different.

tl;dr, you are not a badass because you camp on Firebase White. You are not employing some advanced tactic, you are following an established camping strategy, made popular through Youtube and this among other forums that was created by a player that is better than you'll ever be.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 07 octobre 2012 - 08:49 .


#79
mbergeron468

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Trogdorx wrote...

Except even when you're counter camping, you're not staying in the same spot. You still have to move to grab, resupply ammo, get a better angle on your target. Run away because some moron thinks he's helping by 'flanking' but instead is just making the enemy spawn behind you...

Even when I play a roaming class like my kroguard, if I see other members of my team are camping, I don't say 'pff lol, that's for noobs!' I stick around and protect them, or charge into the middle of the group they're engaging to soak fire, so they can spend more time shooting and less time recovering.


Demolisher removes the need to move away from the counter for ammo and moving to get a better angle on a target doesnt make sense when farming as you allow the enemies to come at you and kill when you see them. The biggest problem I have with farmers is when players don't use the most effective way to win. It has been a long time since I have seen a salarian engineer decoy being used and many times the players farming shouldn't be on gold or platinum and fail on objective waves because they can't handle the enemies they go up against.

#80
Fox-snipe

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CronicleChicken wrote...

Fox-snipe wrote...

(stuff)


How many credits do you have?


What's it matter?  I don't play for credits.  Should I assume you are just a credit addict that cares nothing about "fun"?

Playing for credits, glory, ego, etc. etc. is the wrong reason to play a game.

#81
Ashen One

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mbergeron468 wrote...

Trogdorx wrote...

Except even when you're counter camping, you're not staying in the same spot. You still have to move to grab, resupply ammo, get a better angle on your target. Run away because some moron thinks he's helping by 'flanking' but instead is just making the enemy spawn behind you...

Even when I play a roaming class like my kroguard, if I see other members of my team are camping, I don't say 'pff lol, that's for noobs!' I stick around and protect them, or charge into the middle of the group they're engaging to soak fire, so they can spend more time shooting and less time recovering.


Demolisher removes the need to move away from the counter for ammo and moving to get a better angle on a target doesnt make sense when farming as you allow the enemies to come at you and kill when you see them. The biggest problem I have with farmers is when players don't use the most effective way to win. It has been a long time since I have seen a salarian engineer decoy being used and many times the players farming shouldn't be on gold or platinum and fail on objective waves because they can't handle the enemies they go up against.


The farming strategies were put in place for players that want the easiest path to credits to blow on the RNG. (do a Google or Youtube search for mass effect 3 multiplayer easy credits, and see how many results come back as Firebase White Geth)

It shouldn't really surprise you that players in these matches are unable to complete objectives. The point of the strategy is that it's so easy, so obviously you're going to be getting a bunch of players that would otherwise have no business in Gold

#82
Trogdorx

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Ashen Earth wrote...

Trogdorx wrote...

Except even when you're counter camping, you're not staying in the same spot. You still have to move to grab, resupply ammo, get a better angle on your target. Run away because some moron thinks he's helping by 'flanking' but instead is just making the enemy spawn behind you...


Don't try to glorify camping to make it seem more advanced than it is.

Campers on Firebase White sit in the same spot and force the enemies to walk through a choke point. It doesn't matter which of the 4 unblocked spawn points the enemies decide to arrive at, and the players don't even need to know because the enemies are forced through the same choke point. Information like that would be more beneficial to people using advanced tactics (predicting spawns and crushing them before they can spread out) They don't need to "get a better angle" on a target," because it's sitting at a choke point, exposed. Campers on Firebase White don't need to know that waves 5, 8, 9, and 10 will spawn bosses in pairs (three primes vs Geth) because they aren't on a mission to decimate an enemy spawn in 5 seconds, they're trying to survive the onslaught. they're not at risk of turning a corner and running into 2 Atlases and a Phantom spawn.

It's generally accepted strategy to camp on Firebase White because it's so mindnumbingly easy that anyone can do it. If it was the other way around (that is advanced tactics being generally accepted strategy) then the Firebase White/Glacier complaints would be quite different.

tl;dr, you are not a badass because you camp on Firebase White. You are not employing some advanced tactic, you are following an established camping strategy, made popular through Youtube and this among other forums that was created by a player that is better than you'll ever be.


Lol.
Posted Image
So, because you already know in advance what types of enemies you'll be facing when and where due to experience and metagaming, that makes your strategy superior to one that doesn't care? Sounds backwards to me bro.
Whoo, boy. Not turning a corner and running right into an overpowered enemy? So nooooob!
You say 'mindnumbingly easy', I hear 'effective and superior to whatever crap you're doing'.
Also, you still need to be able to roam and fight to accomplish most of the objective waves, so your argument is total garbage.

#83
mbergeron468

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I have done both camping and speedrun/spawn rush playstyles and personally I find rushing and taking out spawns makes the matches alot easier as the enemy doesn't have time to move around and set up around the map. Both starategies can go wrong and cause alot of problems for players, but farming tends to fall apart if any one thing goes wrong. If an enemy gets in from behind and is not noticed then it can take down a couple teammates causing others to move out of cover getting themselves killed.

Modifié par mbergeron468, 07 octobre 2012 - 09:06 .


#84
ZiRK

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Once youve played this game enough, youll realize you can treat it like you used to treat silver.

#85
TheImmortalBeaver

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Camping isn't tactical play. Implying that people who don't like camping hate tactics and are therefore idiots is borderline trolling. Play the game however you want, but don't insult people when they don't like what is considered to be rude behavior: exploiting AI behavior for easy credits.

Call it what you will. It's still camping.

#86
OblivionDawn

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Camping is not "tactical play." Never will be.

#87
mbergeron468

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Trogdorx wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Trogdorx wrote...

Except even when you're counter camping, you're not staying in the same spot. You still have to move to grab, resupply ammo, get a better angle on your target. Run away because some moron thinks he's helping by 'flanking' but instead is just making the enemy spawn behind you...


Don't try to glorify camping to make it seem more advanced than it is.

Campers on Firebase White sit in the same spot and force the enemies to walk through a choke point. It doesn't matter which of the 4 unblocked spawn points the enemies decide to arrive at, and the players don't even need to know because the enemies are forced through the same choke point. Information like that would be more beneficial to people using advanced tactics (predicting spawns and crushing them before they can spread out) They don't need to "get a better angle" on a target," because it's sitting at a choke point, exposed. Campers on Firebase White don't need to know that waves 5, 8, 9, and 10 will spawn bosses in pairs (three primes vs Geth) because they aren't on a mission to decimate an enemy spawn in 5 seconds, they're trying to survive the onslaught. they're not at risk of turning a corner and running into 2 Atlases and a Phantom spawn.

It's generally accepted strategy to camp on Firebase White because it's so mindnumbingly easy that anyone can do it. If it was the other way around (that is advanced tactics being generally accepted strategy) then the Firebase White/Glacier complaints would be quite different.

tl;dr, you are not a badass because you camp on Firebase White. You are not employing some advanced tactic, you are following an established camping strategy, made popular through Youtube and this among other forums that was created by a player that is better than you'll ever be.


Lol.
Posted Image
So, because you already know in advance what types of enemies you'll be facing when and where due to experience and metagaming, that makes your strategy superior to one that doesn't care? Sounds backwards to me bro.
Whoo, boy. Not turning a corner and running right into an overpowered enemy? So nooooob!
You say 'mindnumbingly easy', I hear 'effective and superior to whatever crap you're doing'.
Also, you still need to be able to roam and fight to accomplish most of the objective waves, so your argument is total garbage.


You do realize even farmers say that it is easy and doesn't take alot of effort or thought to use a camping strategy. Farming is going for the most effective way to make credits and if I can go through 2 gold games by run and gun while you only complete one by camping wouldn't that make my run and gun more effective and a better strategy? You are camping to gain credits just as I am speedrunning to make credits so why not use the faster method at getting credits?

#88
Ashen One

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Trogdorx wrote...

So, because you already know in advance what types of enemies you'll be facing when and where due to experience and metagaming, that makes your strategy superior to one that doesn't care?


Exactly.

If I know that I'm going to run into 2 Atlases 3 Phantoms, 2 Guardians and an Engineer against Cerberus at the start of wave 9 on Gold, I can go blow up the entire spawn with a missile, and severely deplete the wave budget in a matter of seconds. If the rest of my team is using the same tactic (that is predictoing exactly where the enemies will spawn, and aggressively attacking the spawns) wave 9 could easily be dealt with in under 30 seconds.

A team of campers in the same situation (Wave 9 Gold) might end up using missiles anyway. (due to being overwhelmed)
Or maybe they won't. But they'll definitely not be clearing wave 9 of a Gold run in half a minute. An aggressive strategy is superior, and more efficient when it's done right.

I would say using a missile to destroy all 8 enemies on the map (including both bosses) within 2 seconds of them spawning is a more efficient use of a missile than using a missile to clear out a camp spot after being pinned down by enemies for a few minutes.

#89
Ashen One

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mbergeron468 wrote...

You do realize even farmers say that it is easy and doesn't take alot of effort or thought to use a camping strategy. Farming is going for the most effective way to make credits *snip*


Camping strategies are not even the most effective way to get credits, it's just one of the easiest ways with an established strategy that everyone knows about because it's so easy that virtually anyone can do it.

If I wanted to, I could speedrun Glacier or Firebase White on Gold for 70k credits every 10-15 minutes. Obviously a speedrun is more rewarding, but your average player can't do a speedrun because it requires a deeper knowledge of the spawn mechanics than he is willing to learn.

#90
CitizenThom

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I like tactical game play, the trick is that it only works with other people playing the same way. When people are engaging tactically, such as engaging enemies from more than one direction, staying away from killzones, enemies that can be tough one on one don't stand much of a chance. Camping in some cases on some maps might be the best way to go. At the same time, I've played FBWGG with a different mix of characters, that are actually more efficient than the camp at the one set of counters approach. For example, a soldier/sentinel out by the cover near the ammo box, one player at the counters, two players (ideally with AOE powers) controlling the indoor stairs and retreating to the counter area if multiple Primes come down those stairs... is much better tactically than all four players staying at that camp.

Modifié par CitizenThom, 07 octobre 2012 - 09:21 .


#91
Eckswhyzed

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Misterpinky0 wrote...

Camping isn't tactical play. Implying that people who don't like camping hate tactics and are therefore idiots is borderline trolling. Play the game however you want, but don't insult people when they don't like what is considered to be rude behavior: exploiting AI behavior for easy credits.

Call it what you will. It's still camping.


Wiktionary states a tactic is "A manoeuvre, or action calculated to achieve some end"

Going by that definition, ME3 tactics are just maneouvres used to gain the advantage over the enemy. I'd say using chokepoints and defensibe cover is good tactics. And 'exploiting AI behaviour' isn't necessarily a bad thing - right hand advantage is exploiting AI behaviour, spawn bombing is exploiting the spawn system. Do these things take more skill than camping? Yes.

To sum up:

Camping is tactics. Not all tactics require equal skill.

Or we can just state what we mean by "tactics" before we make a post. I get the feeling we're all just arguing definitions.

#92
Trogdorx

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mbergeron468 wrote...

You do realize even farmers say that it is easy and doesn't take alot of effort or thought to use a camping strategy. Farming is going for the most effective way to make credits and if I can go through 2 gold games by run and gun while you only complete one by camping wouldn't that make my run and gun more effective and a better strategy? You are camping to gain credits just as I am speedrunning to make credits so why not use the faster method at getting credits?


Your method is only faster if everyone you're playing with is effective. If you're playing with randoms, you're likely to get tactical lolwuts, and therefore camping will get you more wins per time spent. I don't trust any of the people I'm playing with to know their butt from a hole in the ground, and because there's no text chat, I have no way of telling anyone what to do.

#93
BlackbirdSR-71C

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Farming is hated because it uses one strategy for one single map and one single enemy type, often with few select classes.

This makes the game ridiculously easy. You don't need to remember multiple maps or strategies due to different enemies requiring different approaches as well as the different tools avaiable to you due to different class kits.

It's boring, repititive, and takes every bit of challenge the game provides away.

Farming isn't hated because it's not a viable tatic. It's hated because the people who farm don't put up challenges for themselves by using more complex and difficult setups.

And for many of us, challenge, at leas the right ammount of challenge, means fun. We're not playing multiplayer to sit behind a counter using the same tactic all the time, we're purposely letting the game choose a random map and enemy to see if we can beat an unexpected setup.

Unlocking gear without challenge has to be the most boring thing. If you get what you want all the time, it stops being fun. You need to balance challenge and reward. Take away the challenge, and the reward stops being rewarding. Take away the reward, and there's no reason to complete the challenge.

Modifié par BlackbirdSR-71C, 07 octobre 2012 - 09:29 .


#94
mbergeron468

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Trogdorx wrote...

mbergeron468 wrote...

You do realize even farmers say that it is easy and doesn't take alot of effort or thought to use a camping strategy. Farming is going for the most effective way to make credits and if I can go through 2 gold games by run and gun while you only complete one by camping wouldn't that make my run and gun more effective and a better strategy? You are camping to gain credits just as I am speedrunning to make credits so why not use the faster method at getting credits?


Your method is only faster if everyone you're playing with is effective. If you're playing with randoms, you're likely to get tactical lolwuts, and therefore camping will get you more wins per time spent. I don't trust any of the people I'm playing with to know their butt from a hole in the ground, and because there's no text chat, I have no way of telling anyone what to do.


Both methods are only effective is everyone on the team is effective. The quickest way to earn credits would stand to be the better strategy as you will finish when I am already at the half point mark or even finished with my second game. Camping doesnt mean you have a greater chance of winning it only measn the enemy has to travel further to kill your team.

Modifié par mbergeron468, 07 octobre 2012 - 09:32 .


#95
Trogdorx

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In my opinion the game should not be so predictable that you can guess where the enemy is going to spawn and fire a rocket in as soon as the round starts. To me, that smells more like exploiting game mechanics than strategy. Surviving the spread-out horde of enemies requires keeping up a steady stream of DPS while avoiding being taken out, and shifting fire/position to the entrance the majority of the enemies are coming from while not completely ignoring the other(s).

#96
Gavrilo

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as far i have seen there are 2 strategies,bunker and cycling,in both its crucial to stay together and have good firepower

#97
outsidefactor

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Fox-snipe wrote...

CronicleChicken wrote...

Fox-snipe wrote...

(stuff)


How many credits do you have?


What's it matter?  I don't play for credits.  Should I assume you are just a credit addict that cares nothing about "fun"?

Playing for credits, glory, ego, etc. etc. is the wrong reason to play a game.


Wrong: playing a game and it being fun is reason to play a game. If you enjoy camping, then camp. If you don't, then don't. Just stop telling other people how to have fun.

#98
Ashen One

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Trogdorx wrote...

mbergeron468 wrote...

You do realize even farmers say that it is easy and doesn't take alot of effort or thought to use a camping strategy. Farming is going for the most effective way to make credits and if I can go through 2 gold games by run and gun while you only complete one by camping wouldn't that make my run and gun more effective and a better strategy? You are camping to gain credits just as I am speedrunning to make credits so why not use the faster method at getting credits?


Your method is only faster if everyone you're playing with is effective.


The only real limit is your own skill level. I play with randoms almost exclusively, and I never seem to have a problem singlehandedly wiping out large groups of enemies when they decide to camp in one spot the whole game.

It's probably why so many people on this forum act like I'm the god of Mass Effect 3, when in reality there are much better players than me.

#99
Trogdorx

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mbergeron468 wrote...

Both methods are only effective is everyone on the team is effective. The quickest way to earn credits would stand to be the better strategy as you will finish when I am already at the half point mark or even finished with my second game.


Not true. Camping allows you to win with a team of poorer quality precisely because it is easier, and therefore, more effective. Therefore your personal success is less dependent on your teammates. Your method probably is more effective, but only under conditions (communication, knowledge of meta-data) that don't happen often for most people. Therefore I prefer the slow-but-steady strategy, rather than risk failure.

#100
Xaijin

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outsidefactor wrote...

There is thread after thread on these boards of people discussing, in tones from the moderate to the outraged, 'farming'. Farming, as I understand the term, is utilising the strengths of particular maps to your advantage, and using an understanding of an enemy to minimise their advantage and take advantage of weaknesses.

To quote Sun Tzu: The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

In a very narrow application, Fire Base White versus Geth, this seems to inspire hatred.

I don’t have a problem playing a Random/Random gold match. I have been playing ME3 since day one, have a reasonably complete manifest and have stayed up to date with balance changes and read about tactics and kit builds on the forums (there seems to be as much bad advice as good, so my own judgement plays a big part). I am also fortunate to have 100 players from my region on my Origin friends list (I hate that max limit of 100), so, at any one time, I have 5 to 10 people I can hit up for games, on weekends. During the week, and if I wake up early and want a game, I am stuck with public lobbies, and don't mind a public game or two, at all. It gives me a chance to shine, as I am most certainly not the best player in my group of friends.

I have read about how hard a non-FBW/Geth gold match is to find; I personally do not find it so. If I feel like playing a biotic, I search for a random Reaper game; grenade or melee, I search for Cerberus. Either way, that usually drops me into an in progress game, with a decent crew, doing a gold random rotation. Not so hard. I have, however, been dropped into a lobby that’s been changed to FBW/Geth as I was joining. If I don’t want to play that THEN I JUST LEAVE. No skin off my nose.So, to return to my original point, what is the complaining about? It is an issue that only affects gold players, who are minority of players in the community (silver is still number 1, if my memory serves me correctly), and a subset of those. No-one I directly know complains about the use of tactical play/farming. Many of the people I play with regularly don’t play FBW/Geth tactically because they want the extra challenge/risk of the ‘headless chicken’ approach. That being said, why should the smarter, lower risk play style be considered less legitimate? If someone wants to play that way, why shouldn’t they? If you don’t want to play that way, then don’t; just don’t expect everyone else to select the same, riskier path. You play for your reasons, other people play for theirs. Why must it be your way only?

If taking cover is not a legitimate tactic, why hasn’t the Bioware response to farming been to remove the ability to take cover? Simple: it’s a legitimate tactic or it wouldn’t have been in the game in the first place. If holding the bottom room on Firebase White is not a legitimate tactic, why hasn’t Bioware removed the desks from the room to remove cover? Because that’s probably why the room was designed like it was in the first place: to hold it, from cover.

So, if the people complaining are minority, if an amazingly vocal one, and the issue is easily avoided by not joining the matches that so offend your delicate sensibilities, why do we now have the Geth drone of doom, super stunning and spawns that ignore play presence, since the latest patch?

Firebase White Geth Gold is NOT the fastest way to make credits; it’s not even the easiest. Holding the central, tiny room on Glacier with a warp bubble adept, slayer for slashbooms, a Demolisher for the pylon and an infiltrator for missions and you can do Platinum runs in 20 to 25 minutes, with full extraction, and very low consumable usage. Players with poor quality weapons can pull it off because it’s very power intensive. So, where is Bioware’s rage against Platinum farms?

FBW/Geth is well known, well understood and doesn’t require co-ordination: everyone knows how it works, so you can just do it with random players; everyone heads for the right place and does their job. This must be very frustrating to a company trying to drive ‘casual’ players to buy Bioware/Xbox/PSN points to exchange for packs. Here is a way for a casual, mostly silver player (the majority, remember) to kick it up for a couple of games to make a little extra cash, to get the better kit, to be able to play the random/random ‘headless chicken’ technique games that some people seem to expect them to play. Instead, here comes Bioware, leveraging the complaints of a minority to try and stamp out a practice that is financially inconvenient for them.

All this seems most ridiculous as none of the changes have really made FBW/Geth farms any less desirable. The tactics are still just as sound and still mitigate risk. It's just that now the ONLY way to succeed against Geth, on gold, is to farm, for players with poor equipment and less experience. Instead of a disincentive to farm it's just a stronger incentive to farm. And, each time the Geth are made harder, it will just make farming more AND MORE desirable, until they are so hard EVERYONE will have to farm, or fail, simply because there is no other tactic that will work.

I have the luxury of free time to spend above and beyond my in-game time to read the forums about techniques, builds and balance changes. I chat to people in game and out of game, and am a member of an active group of regular players. I am NOT the majority. I am one of the lucky few. Many weekend players get maybe three to five games a week. Why begrudge them a gold farm or two, just because you can’t be bothered to search for another game? And why is Bioware's reaction so disproportionate to the problem, and in the wrong direction? Surely a better response from Bioware would be to change the search method to allow people to filter out maps/enemies they don't like? Why make Geth such a miserable ordeal for people playing non-farms?



What an amazing giant wall of subjective rationalization you've attemtped to pass off as fact, gramma.

1. Farming is rampant.

2. Your definition of farming is patently and blatantly incorrect.

3. Your characterization of the "average" farmer is hilariously incorrect.

4. Searching for two hours for a platinum game and getting only Glacier/Noveria Geth is slightly more than "begrudge" inducing.

5. BW's reaction is not disproprotionate, and it's pretty clear you haven't done the research as to why. To add further injury, all of this information is pretty straight forward and relatively easy to find.

Modifié par Xaijin, 07 octobre 2012 - 09:36 .