176 réponses à ce sujet

[JG The Gamer]

Sun Tzu lost to Vlad the Impaler on Deadliest Warrior. Vlad likes to impale people.

The Reapers impale people on spikes to make husks. They're kicking the galaxy's ass.

Argument is invalid.

[Ashen One]

Trogdorx wrote...

In my opinion the game should not be so predictable that you can guess where the enemy is going to spawn and fire a rocket in as soon as the round starts.

Apparently it's not as predictable you seem to as you think, seeing as the vast majority of the playerbase will not employ speedrun tactics. And even of those that do, you only tend to see that on Glacier, and Firebase White. They are a minority.

Trogdorx wrote...
To me, that smells more like exploiting game mechanics than strategy.

And camping in one spot, "exploiting" the Geth's simplistic AI on the most poorly designed map is any better? Both tactics require spawn control to be effective, the only true difference is that an aggressive strategy requires a deeper knowledge of the spawn mechanics. (knowing exactly which spawn to go after) and that aggressive tactics such as blowing up spawns with missiles, AoE powers and weapons can be applied to all enemies and all maps. tthe Firebase White strategy only works at a choke point, and is only really good against the Geth.

[mbergeron468]

Trogdorx wrote...

In my opinion the game should not be so predictable that you can guess where the enemy is going to spawn and fire a rocket in as soon as the round starts. To me, that smells more like exploiting game mechanics than strategy. Surviving the spread-out horde of enemies requires keeping up a steady stream of DPS while avoiding being taken out, and shifting fire/position to the entrance the majority of the enemies are coming from while not completely ignoring the other(s).

Sitting behind specific desks on a specific map seems like an exploit. Why allow the enemy to spread out and get set when you can kill them all when they are grouped up. Keeping up a constant stream of DPS would go along with the speed strategy more as there is little down time ecept for when the waves are beginning. What you have described is not a camping startegy is sounds more like run and gun. If you have to shift around like you are saying then you may not be using the camp strategy vey well. There should be very limited position changes for each camping person should be covering the entrances and have line of sight in the camping area. It is a strategy that requires very little effort and you are simply creating harder situations for the team to have to fight through during objective waves and extraction.

[Fox-snipe]

outsidefactor wrote...

Fox-snipe wrote...

CronicleChicken wrote...

Fox-snipe wrote...

(stuff)

How many credits do you have?

What's it matter?  I don't play for credits.  Should I assume you are just a credit addict that cares nothing about "fun"?

Playing for credits, glory, ego, etc. etc. is the wrong reason to play a game.

Wrong: playing a game and it being fun is reason to play a game. If you enjoy camping, then camp. If you don't, then don't. Just stop telling other people how to have fun.

Then don't complain to people who get throwin into "your" farming/camping match who refuse to sit in a corner with you.  Because I see that happen quite a bit.

I'd rather fail a match where I'm the only one actively engaging the enemy than succeed when I cheesed the AI.

[mbergeron468]

Trogdorx wrote...

mbergeron468 wrote...

Both methods are only effective is everyone on the team is effective. The quickest way to earn credits would stand to be the better strategy as you will finish when I am already at the half point mark or even finished with my second game.

Not true. Camping allows you to win with a team of poorer quality precisely because it is easier, and therefore, more effective. Therefore your personal success is less dependent on your teammates. Your method probably is more effective, but only under conditions (communication, knowledge of meta-data) that don't happen often for most people. Therefore I prefer the slow-but-steady strategy, rather than risk failure.

Camping is still just as easy to fail at as you have to rely on your team to actually know how to use the camping method effectively and not just sit behind the counters doing nothing. Your method fails on objective waves when most of the teams fail because they cant handle the enemies where my startegy sets it up to where the enemy is known to spawn in certain areas and therefore the objective can be handled easier. Did you use the camping strategy for bronze and silver?

[Trogdorx]

Uhh. Winning by exploiting the AI? Isn't that how you win any singleplayer or co-op game? By being smarter than the AI?

Sitting behind specific cover on specific maps, an exploit? You can camp on every map. It's just more or less effective depending on whether your teammates cooperate or go do their own thing.

[DeathIsHere]

I've wanted to test this for a while. Breaking down the "95% of all gold games are FBWGG!" myth. Let's check it out. I joined 20 games, leaving immediately and waiting a few moments before searching again. Duplicates were discounted (I'd look at the character the leader was using). Here's what I got:

1. Dagger/Cerberus
2. White/Geth
3. Glacier/Cerberus
4. White/Unknown
5. White/Cerberus
6a. --Connection Lost--
6b. Glacier/Cerberus
7. Vancouver/Cerberus
8. White/Cerberus
9. Unknown/Unknown
10. Glacier/Cerberus -- IN PROGRESS
11. Dagger/Reaper -- IN PROGRESS
12. Glacier/Cerberus -- IN PROGRESS
13. White/Geth
14a. IN PROGRESS -- Stuck on "Waiting for other players" until kick timer booted me. Sounded like a Ghost game though (could hear the cars in the background, that's the only map I can think of with cars in the background) but I'm not counting it.
14b. White/Geth
15. Glacier/Cerberus
16. Hydra/Cerberus -- IN PROGRESS
17. Glacier/Reaper
18. Ghost/Reaper -- IN PROGRESS (got dropped in this twice in a row)
19. White/Geth
20. Glacier/Cerberus


4 FBWGG games (20%) 
6 FBGCG games (30%)

If you consider all non-farming in progress combos U/U, there would have been an equal number of FBWGG and U/U games in this test. That's an assumption though so take that as you will.

Overall, Glacier seems like the most popular farming map right now. That's backed up as well my my own observations the past few weeks, I get Glacier way more than White. This test just kinda confirms my earlier suspicions. Geth only pop up in FBWGG maps, surprisingly, nobody sets them as the enemy otherwise. 

This was only with 20 combos, so take it as you will, but I think the "all gold games are FBWGG" bit is a little old these days. Seems Glacier has stolen that one/

[78stonewobble]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Don't try to glorify camping to make it seem more advanced than it is.

Campers on Firebase White sit in the same spot and force the enemies to walk through a choke point. It doesn't matter which of the 4 unblocked spawn points the enemies decide to arrive at, and the players don't even need to know because the enemies are forced through the same choke point. Information like that would be more beneficial to people using advanced tactics (predicting spawns and crushing them before they can spread out) They don't need to "get a better angle" on a target," because it's sitting at a choke point, exposed. Campers on Firebase White don't need to know that waves 5, 8, 9, and 10 will spawn bosses in pairs (three primes vs Geth) because they aren't on a mission to decimate an enemy spawn in 5 seconds, they're trying to survive the onslaught. they're not at risk of turning a corner and running into 2 Atlases and a Phantom spawn.

It's generally accepted strategy to camp on Firebase White because it's so mindnumbingly easy that anyone can do it. If it was the other way around (that is advanced tactics being generally accepted strategy) then the Firebase White/Glacier complaints would be quite different.

tl;dr, you are not a badass because you camp on Firebase White. You are not employing some advanced tactic, you are following an established camping strategy, made popular through Youtube and this among other forums that was created by a player that is better than you'll ever be.

Actually positioning yourself advantageously and forcing the enemy through eg. a chokepoint or with a disadvantage has been used through out the entire history of infantry warfare.

How camping can be seen to be "exploiting" any more than rushing a spawn (which you "magically") know about is beyond me.
 
What you're gloryfying here... is basically what amounts to spawnraping in every other fps... Just versus even more helpless opponents...

[ElementL09]

People don't have tactle play at all actual. People hate farming on certain maps cause they keep getting matched up into games in where the main attempt would be farming, and thats not the match in which their originally look to play in.

Tactical play isn't frowned upon in this game in one bit, if you know how to play smart, then it shows, if you don't, then your probably that person who killed a Cannibal with Shadow strike, but got surrounded and downed by Maruders in my last game or the Krogan not knowing where to shoot on Rio.

[mbergeron468]

Trogdorx wrote...

Uhh. Winning by exploiting the AI? Isn't that how you win any singleplayer or co-op game? By being smarter than the AI?

Sitting behind specific cover on specific maps, an exploit? You can camp on every map. It's just more or less effective depending on whether your teammates cooperate or go do their own thing.

Both strategies strive to be smarter then the AI. Destroying spawns and knowing where the enemy is going to be is more or less effective depending on whether your teammates cooperate or go do their own thing. I am not sure what point you are trying to make as both can be seen as an exploit. As to which one is more effective i would go with run and gun seeing how you can make credits alot faster then camping and I am not putting my team in a position to where if things start to fall apart it becomes difficult to get out trouble.

[LuckyBullet95]

I'm pretty sure playing tactically would consist of playing efficiently. You don't want to be spending four years on a war when you could easily be spending two. I'm pretty sure Sun Tzu didn't crouch behind the same counter of the same lab every minute of every day in case they were attacked by the enemy.

And if they were attacked every day I'm pretty sure he would actually find out what the **** the enemies want from the lab and extract to a safer, more secretive and much better protected area that doesn't require 24/7 observation from field operatives that would be better spent elsewhere. Protecting data is worth nothing if you do not extract even more equally or more relevant and partially linked data.

Modifié par LuckyBullet95, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:02 .

[gh0st wh1sp3r]

So to summate:

Farming has become rampant and due to the community on each specific platform, people are likely to find groups of PUGs still playing FBWGG. Which is fine, I guess, but when every U/U/G match is FBWGG and turns to 14 minutes and 37 seconds straight of not finding a match and dropping out of lobby after lobby. One starts to hate the so-called, "tactical play" that you advocate. I'd call it, "AI exploitation" over "tactical play."

That's like shooting up a bunch of babies dressed in oversized helmets and army gear and calling it "tactical play" instead of "exploiting the fact that I just shot a bunch of babies unable to comprehend the situation and react."

So by OP's definition, "tactical" = "absurd amounts of system exploitation."

[mbergeron468]

DeathIsHere wrote...

I've wanted to test this for a while. Breaking down the "95% of all gold games are FBWGG!" myth. Let's check it out. I joined 20 games, leaving immediately and waiting a few moments before searching again. Duplicates were discounted (I'd look at the character the leader was using). Here's what I got:

1. Dagger/Cerberus
2. White/Geth
3. Glacier/Cerberus
4. White/Unknown
5. White/Cerberus
6a. --Connection Lost--
6b. Glacier/Cerberus
7. Vancouver/Cerberus
8. White/Cerberus
9. Unknown/Unknown
10. Glacier/Cerberus -- IN PROGRESS
11. Dagger/Reaper -- IN PROGRESS
12. Glacier/Cerberus -- IN PROGRESS
13. White/Geth
14a. IN PROGRESS -- Stuck on "Waiting for other players" until kick timer booted me. Sounded like a Ghost game though (could hear the cars in the background, that's the only map I can think of with cars in the background) but I'm not counting it.
14b. White/Geth
15. Glacier/Cerberus
16. Hydra/Cerberus -- IN PROGRESS
17. Glacier/Reaper
18. Ghost/Reaper -- IN PROGRESS (got dropped in this twice in a row)
19. White/Geth
20. Glacier/Cerberus


4 FBWGG games (20%) 
6 FBGCG games (30%)

If you consider all non-farming in progress combos U/U, there would have been an equal number of FBWGG and U/U games in this test. That's an assumption though so take that as you will.

Overall, Glacier seems like the most popular farming map right now. That's backed up as well my my own observations the past few weeks, I get Glacier way more than White. This test just kinda confirms my earlier suspicions. Geth only pop up in FBWGG maps, surprisingly, nobody sets them as the enemy otherwise. 

This was only with 20 combos, so take it as you will, but I think the "all gold games are FBWGG" bit is a little old these days. Seems Glacier has stolen that one/

 

There are too many factors to make this a valid point. Bioware has released the numbers a couple of times showing what map is played the most.

[Ashen One]

78stonewobble wrote...

Actually positioning yourself advantageously and forcing the enemy through eg. a chokepoint or with a disadvantage has been used through out the entire history of infantry warfare.

Advantageous positioning is very possible to achieve without camping in one spot, as has been proven time and time again in this game. So possible in fact, that Hunter Mode's Enhanced Vision had to be nerfed.

Also, there are a few fundamental differences between this game, and real life warfare.

The main one being that people don't magically reappear at a predictable location seconds after you blow their brains out in real life.

78stonewobble wrote...

How camping can be seen to be "exploiting" any more than rushing a spawn (which you "magically") know about is beyond me.

As magical as it may seem, it's really nothing more than a skill you develop from playing faction other than the Geth on maps other than Firebase White while emplyoing a wide variety tactics that don't involve sitting in one location for the duration of the match.

You should try it sometime.
 

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:16 .

[K_O_513]

Making easy credits really seems to infuriate some people.

Also, lots of people seem to confuse "farming" with "camping", though neither are really a bad thing. Why not give yourself an advantage to succeed if you can? Everyone does it in some way whether it's putting on equipment or taking advantage of the fact that some enemies move slow, etc.

[Seneva]

Fox-snipe wrote...

CronicleChicken wrote...

Fox-snipe wrote...

(stuff)

How many credits do you have?

What's it matter?  I don't play for credits.  Should I assume you are just a credit addict that cares nothing about "fun"?

Playing for credits, glory, ego, etc. etc. is the wrong reason to play a game.

Who are you to decide what is wrong and isn't?
There is only 1 person that decides how I would play the game and that person isn't you.

[mbergeron468]

78stonewobble wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Don't try to glorify camping to make it seem more advanced than it is.

Campers on Firebase White sit in the same spot and force the enemies to walk through a choke point. It doesn't matter which of the 4 unblocked spawn points the enemies decide to arrive at, and the players don't even need to know because the enemies are forced through the same choke point. Information like that would be more beneficial to people using advanced tactics (predicting spawns and crushing them before they can spread out) They don't need to "get a better angle" on a target," because it's sitting at a choke point, exposed. Campers on Firebase White don't need to know that waves 5, 8, 9, and 10 will spawn bosses in pairs (three primes vs Geth) because they aren't on a mission to decimate an enemy spawn in 5 seconds, they're trying to survive the onslaught. they're not at risk of turning a corner and running into 2 Atlases and a Phantom spawn.

It's generally accepted strategy to camp on Firebase White because it's so mindnumbingly easy that anyone can do it. If it was the other way around (that is advanced tactics being generally accepted strategy) then the Firebase White/Glacier complaints would be quite different.

tl;dr, you are not a badass because you camp on Firebase White. You are not employing some advanced tactic, you are following an established camping strategy, made popular through Youtube and this among other forums that was created by a player that is better than you'll ever be.

Actually positioning yourself advantageously and forcing the enemy through eg. a chokepoint or with a disadvantage has been used through out the entire history of infantry warfare.

How camping can be seen to be "exploiting" any more than rushing a spawn (which you "magically") know about is beyond me.
 
What you're gloryfying here... is basically what amounts to spawnraping in every other fps... Just versus even more helpless opponents...

Well this is a video game and the enemy has  limited intelligence and cannot adapt to a farming method so to bring up actual warfare is just silly. If the enemies were controlled by human players I am sure that farming would have been stopped long ago. If you want to use the point to wrote then speedrunning does just that by forcing the enemy into a certain area giving yourself an advantage to kill them, but much quicker than farming. With camping you are simply having the enemy march to their death and you are killing helpless opponents.

[Syrus101]

people hate tactical play because they dont know HOW to play as a group...

games like CoD (and to a lesser extent BF) those games are revolved round INDIVIDUAL achievements. not group achievements.

it has conditioned many players to simply do their own thing because teammates (regardless who they are) can not be relied upon.

while I know I cant expect complete strangers helping me out in the field I do hold some faith that they will assist and work with me (and I with them) in SOME way

[Badpanzer]

Never understood the anti farm mentality myself..to me farms are just good tactics at work.
A great many good players got their start in gold(and their manifest)by farming.
However I would never bash anyone for not farming and I cannot comprehend why people attack those who do.
You humans are weird.

[Lord_Dweedle]

If people dont like farming then dont do it, simple as that...

people on ME3 MP are.. an odd sort to put it lightly lol

I dont think people on ME3 like tactical gameplay... I mean.. any suggestion of player buffs is met with happy happy yet the word nerf and people go psycho

[Ashen One]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

I dont think people on ME3 like tactical gameplay... I mean.. any suggestion of player buffs is met with happy happy yet the word nerf and people go psycho

Nice generalization there.

[DeathIsHere]

mbergeron468 wrote...

DeathIsHere wrote...

I've wanted to test this for a while. Breaking down the "95% of all gold games are FBWGG!" myth. Let's check it out. I joined 20 games, leaving immediately and waiting a few moments before searching again. Duplicates were discounted (I'd look at the character the leader was using). Here's what I got:

1. Dagger/Cerberus
2. White/Geth
3. Glacier/Cerberus
4. White/Unknown
5. White/Cerberus
6a. --Connection Lost--
6b. Glacier/Cerberus
7. Vancouver/Cerberus
8. White/Cerberus
9. Unknown/Unknown
10. Glacier/Cerberus -- IN PROGRESS
11. Dagger/Reaper -- IN PROGRESS
12. Glacier/Cerberus -- IN PROGRESS
13. White/Geth
14a. IN PROGRESS -- Stuck on "Waiting for other players" until kick timer booted me. Sounded like a Ghost game though (could hear the cars in the background, that's the only map I can think of with cars in the background) but I'm not counting it.
14b. White/Geth
15. Glacier/Cerberus
16. Hydra/Cerberus -- IN PROGRESS
17. Glacier/Reaper
18. Ghost/Reaper -- IN PROGRESS (got dropped in this twice in a row)
19. White/Geth
20. Glacier/Cerberus


4 FBWGG games (20%) 
6 FBGCG games (30%)

If you consider all non-farming in progress combos U/U, there would have been an equal number of FBWGG and U/U games in this test. That's an assumption though so take that as you will.

Overall, Glacier seems like the most popular farming map right now. That's backed up as well my my own observations the past few weeks, I get Glacier way more than White. This test just kinda confirms my earlier suspicions. Geth only pop up in FBWGG maps, surprisingly, nobody sets them as the enemy otherwise. 

This was only with 20 combos, so take it as you will, but I think the "all gold games are FBWGG" bit is a little old these days. Seems Glacier has stolen that one/

 

There are too many factors to make this a valid point. Bioware has released the numbers a couple of times showing what map is played the most.

I know this, and it's shown in my tests actually. FBW was picked 7/20 times. But only 4 of those were against Geth. The map is just popular.

[Lord_Dweedle]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

I dont think people on ME3 like tactical gameplay... I mean.. any suggestion of player buffs is met with happy happy yet the word nerf and people go psycho

Nice generalization there.

Seen my kroguard thread? proofs right in there of the attitudes of a large percentage of BSN

[78stonewobble]

Ashen Earth wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

Actually positioning yourself advantageously and forcing the enemy through eg. a chokepoint or with a disadvantage has been used through out the entire history of infantry warfare.

There are a few fundamental differences between this game, and real life warfare.

The main one being that people don't magically reappear at a predictable location seconds after you blow their brains out in real life.

78stonewobble wrote...

How camping can be seen to be "exploiting" any more than rushing a spawn (which you "magically") know about is beyond me.

As magical as it may seem, it's really nothing more than a skill you develop from playing faction other than the Geth on maps other than Firebase White while emplyoing a wide variety tactics that don't involve sitting in one location for the duration of the match.

You should try it sometime.

There is atleast, if not more, exploitation of the fixed spawns and limited ai in speed run & gun as there is in any camping. To say anything else is... well needing to boost their own ego for whatever reason.

No, I hate spawn rapers in atleast a dozen other games. For immersion I try to play like I DON"T magically know where the enemy comes from.

[ill_eyggro]

When you are at Giant, and the enemy is pushing forward, and the team uses the ramp to take cover for a momment, that's a strategy; When You're at White and you have a Shadow spinning in the same place for about a half hour, you are farming... If you do that every night, there's something wrong in how you get your fun.