176 réponses à ce sujet

[78stonewobble]

I'd bet Sun Tsu would duck behind a counter if people were shooting at him. He wouldn't stand on principle...

[Schneidend]

ParatrooperSean wrote...
AI doesn't get "confused," that's a state that requires actual thought. The Geth would be closing the distance on you whether you were behind a counter or not. In fact, if you camp any location on any map against any enemy, they will all come to you. That's not "abuse"

What else do you call abnormal, unusual behavior that the designers intended but confused? The specific act of occupying those desks causes the AI to make poor decisions it would not normally make without those specific conditions. The fact that they will come to you is not the issue, as that is expected. The problem, that I am now restating for the third time, is that the specific actions taken in farming matches cause the AI to make poor decisions that does not match up with what they would normally do. The problem is not bottle-necking the geth, but that this specific bottlenecking technique causes them to walk up to players in a suicidal fashion rather than take cover or attempt to flank like they normally would.

Again, this is just like crouching directly behind cover and shooting over it in ME1 instead of using the cover system. It causes the enemies to run around out in the open like some kind of shooting gallery, which is not their expected behavior for when a player is safely behind cover because the AI doesn't realize the player is behind cover.

[MentalKase]

Given the amount of money it takes to get a decent weapon and the randomness of getting the weapon that compliments you particular play style then farming the only real option till you get that weapon.

[78stonewobble]

Schneidend wrote...

What else do you call abnormal, unusual behavior that the designers intended but confused? The specific act of occupying those desks causes the AI to make poor decisions it would not normally make without those specific conditions. The fact that they will come to you is not the issue, as that is expected. The problem, that I am now restating for the third time, is that the specific actions taken in farming matches cause the AI to make poor decisions that does not match up with what they would normally do. The problem is not bottle-necking the geth, but that this specific bottlenecking technique causes them to walk up to players in a suicidal fashion rather than take cover or attempt to flank like they normally would.

Again, this is just like crouching directly behind cover and shooting over it in ME1 instead of using the cover system. It causes the enemies to run around out in the open like some kind of shooting gallery, which is not their expected behavior for when a player is safely behind cover because the AI doesn't realize the player is behind cover.

Again... Limiting the opponents ability to flank you or take cover is "smart" in warfare.

But where should they suddenly be "stopping" with taking cover? If were talking firebase white that is. The tables in front of the "campy" table?

And how is it different from kiting enemies and "confuse" them around any obstacles on any map?

[Ashen One]

78stonewobble wrote...

There is atleast, if not more, exploitation of the fixed spawns and limited ai in speed run & gun as there is in any camping. To say anything else is... well needing to boost their own ego for whatever reason.

I'm not sure that a full understanding of the spawning system qualifies as "exploitation". If anything, it's a testament to the fact that we need more maps like Rio.

78stonewobble wrote...

No, I hate spawn rapers in atleast a dozen other games. For immersion I try to play like I DON"T magically know where the enemy comes from.

That's fine, just don't expect the rest of us to conform to your mentality for the sake of your "immersion". I can't help knowing where the enemies are, I'm not going to gimp myself for no reason.

[kipac]

Don't use Sun Tzu's name on a video game. It's just a game, and farming is tedious, boring, and often mindless because many farmers just spam powers while standing at the same area for 20-30min.

[Schneidend]

78stonewobble wrote...

Again... Limiting the opponents ability to flank you or take cover is "smart" in warfare.

But where should they suddenly be "stopping" with taking cover? If were talking firebase white that is. The tables in front of the "campy" table?

And how is it different from kiting enemies and "confuse" them around any obstacles on any map?

Right, but the FBWGG configuration behind the desks doesn't limit their ability to flank you. There's a perfectly good path that goes right behind you that the geth will never explore unless you kite them there.

And, considering this is the only map on which this happens, and the only enemy that responds this way this reliably, how is it a strategy and not an exploit? 

It's like hiding behind certain geography in BG1 that Drizzt's pathfinding can't figure out so you can pelt him with arrows while he never attacks you in return.

[Waffelmeister]

You guys are arguing "For tactical play!" and "Against tactical play!" when that's not the point. The point is that FBWGG did not reflect gold level difficulty. It was like playing a silver match for more than twice the credits. Honestly, the map needs to be scrapped.

[78stonewobble]

Ashen Earth wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

There is atleast, if not more, exploitation of the fixed spawns and limited ai in speed run & gun as there is in any camping. To say anything else is... well needing to boost their own ego for whatever reason.

I'm not sure that a full understanding of the spawning system qualifies as "exploitation". If anything, it's a testament to the fact that we need more maps like Rio.

78stonewobble wrote...

No, I hate spawn rapers in atleast a dozen other games. For immersion I try to play like I DON"T magically know where the enemy comes from.

That's fine, just don't expect the rest of us to conform to your mentality for the sake of your "immersion". I can't help knowing where the enemies are, I'm not going to gimp myself for no reason.

I've never said that people should play like me. I'm just tired of people saying "my fun is the only right fun". When there are any multitude of ways to enjoy the game.

I look until I find a game that fits my playstyle and... Well I havent made many new topics around how hard it is to find campers like me and how the game should be nerfed to make run and gun harder/impossible.

[RGFrog]

agree with op.

however, I u/u/g a lot and i rarely get w/g/g. Maybe 1 out of every 10. And when I do, I play it. If they don't change up, I ask. Then I leave if it's not what I want.

There's a lot of exaggeration that happens on BSN to boost the problem some have with farming. There are certain times of the day when you're more likely to get matches you want. AND you can host the settings you want. AND other things. I would be comfortable in reducing the numbers everyone claims down to 25% and place money on it.

[78stonewobble]

Schneidend wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

Again... Limiting the opponents ability to flank you or take cover is "smart" in warfare.

But where should they suddenly be "stopping" with taking cover? If were talking firebase white that is. The tables in front of the "campy" table?

And how is it different from kiting enemies and "confuse" them around any obstacles on any map?

Right, but the FBWGG configuration behind the desks doesn't limit their ability to flank you. There's a perfectly good path that goes right behind you that the geth will never explore unless you kite them there.

And, considering this is the only map on which this happens, and the only enemy that responds this way this reliably, how is it a strategy and not an exploit? 

It's like hiding behind certain geography in BG1 that Drizzt's pathfinding can't figure out so you can pelt him with arrows while he never attacks you in return.

You mean outside and around the building for the backdoor?

It's not quite as a bad as that example since you DO get attacked.

And ... well it might be a pretty obvious and well known example but all the maps have invisible lines you shouldn't cross to force a spawn and or enemy path to take.

TBH: I've only played fbwgg like 2 times in ... pft... maybe 3-4 months. Mostly I play u/u/s and I find camping top of white ladder much more fun.

[Tronar]

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...
I dont think people on ME3 like tactical gameplay... I mean.. any suggestion of player buffs is met with happy happy yet the word nerf and people go psycho

Nice generalization there.

Seen my kroguard thread? proofs right in there of the attitudes of a large percentage of BSN

You don´t even consider for a second that the reaction you got to your "Nerf the Kroguard"-thread might have been the simple result of you BEING COMPLETELY WRONG?

A single look to your manifest and the way you argued your nerf-request made it obvious that you are a silver difficulty player at best and also haven´t really played the game for a long time. So despite your lack of experience and skill at killing enemies faster than a slow Kroguard you apparently think you have made a solid case, why the Kroguard needs a nerf, because you personally felt the Kroguard was stealing kills from you (which is a completely moot claim in a Coop-Mode with shared XP at the end anyways). And to further demonstrate your lack of ME3 MP experience with the game you suggested to equip the nerfed Kroguard with a power like Warp to be able to deal some longer distance damage.
You got it backwards on so manzy levels, that I don´t even know where to staret.

How about trzing to improve your gameplay before requesting to destroy the fun for the maority of the player community___

[Ashen One]

Tronar wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Lord_Dweedle wrote...
I dont think people on ME3 like tactical gameplay... I mean.. any suggestion of player buffs is met with happy happy yet the word nerf and people go psycho

Nice generalization there.

Seen my kroguard thread? proofs right in there of the attitudes of a large percentage of BSN

You don´t even consider for a second that the reaction you got to your "Nerf the Kroguard"-thread might have been the simple result of you BEING COMPLETELY WRONG?

A single look to your manifest and the way you argued your nerf-request made it obvious that you are a silver difficulty player at best and also haven´t really played the game for a long time. So despite your lack of experience and skill at killing enemies faster than a slow Kroguard you apparently think you have made a solid case, why the Kroguard needs a nerf, because you personally felt the Kroguard was stealing kills from you (which is a completely moot claim in a Coop-Mode with shared XP at the end anyways). And to further demonstrate your lack of ME3 MP experience with the game you suggested to equip the nerfed Kroguard with a power like Warp to be able to deal some longer distance damage.
You got it backwards on so manzy levels, that I don´t even know where to staret.

How about trzing to improve your gameplay before requesting to destroy the fun for the maority of the player community___

[HammerFists]

UnRestrikted wrote...

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. Unfortunately, most of the patrons on this forum don't care for posts of text. The generation of gifs and memes is upon us.

What he said.

[MrGoldarm]

One thing that i really hate when playing close to teammates is when someone overrides your biotic combo with overload, incinerate etc or with elemental ammo.
Why not keep those two types independent from eachother?

[outsidefactor]

MentalKase wrote...

Given the amount of money it takes to get a decent weapon and the randomness of getting the weapon that compliments you particular play style then farming the only real option till you get that weapon.

Yeah, I think a lot of people are forgetting, either accidently or deliberately, what it was like to be a new player. I am sure that a lot of the people that so desparage farming have a decent manifest and have played a lot of MP before.

My sister is just starting out in MP. She has to play bronze matches because she is both innexperienced and poorly equipped. She is still learning to play games in general, and Mass Effect is the first action game she's ever played. I have taken one of her characters out for a spin in gold and it was HARD WORK. I am a decent enough player, but there is a real barrier to random gold matches when you haven't got the real firepower.

A tactic is a legitimate tactic if it works. Sure, there might be better, more efficient tactics: bully for you if you can and want to play that way. What I am sick of is people saying that 'something should be done to spoil these guys fun because they should play like I do'.

[Dominoiz]

It's a videogame, not a real war.
Videogames are suppossed to be fun (running around) and not boring (camping)

[78stonewobble]

Dominoiz wrote...

It's a videogame, not a real war.
Videogames are suppossed to be fun (running around) and not boring (camping)

You're having fun wrong ...*sigh of sarcasm*



@outsidefactor: 

"What I am sick of is people saying that 'something should be done to spoil these guys fun because they should play like I do'."

Finally ... and agreed.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 08 octobre 2012 - 08:36 .

[BleedingUranium]

Fox-snipe wrote...

No, farming is when you do the same thing, over and over, ad infinitum, because that's all you can manage to be successful at (in terms of your goal).  Farming is also generally reserved for when people ignore playing the game to its true spirit for self-serving, egotistical purposes (money in most cases).

This, and only this, is what I consider farming, and exactly why I don't like them. To them it's Credits > Everything Else. The same people who, when it was announced that we'd get a credit bonus for extracting, quickly started calculating if they would get more credits for extracting, or just trying to die as fast as possible after the Wave 10 objective.

I am not bothered by farming games, as I am not in them. I'm also not against people doing the easiest thing when they're new to a particular difficulty, that's a natural learning curve.

I hate people who value money over all else in real life, but when you're doing that in a game? There are no words for how much I despise these people.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 08 octobre 2012 - 09:06 .

[fatmancory]

I'm really curious, How does camping hurt any of you guys? As op stated you could leave as soon as you get into a match, and camping helps new player learn the ropes and get better gear so they don't have to camp.

So I ask again, how does camping hurt any of you?

[Bleachrude]

I'm not sure why camping is that bad...

It's simply abusing the AI but frankly, we all do that (grenade/rocket into spawn point is most assuredly abusing the AI)

[Karstedt]

ripper000 wrote...

this wall of text just tried to take my soul

*Banshee scream*

[Yajuu Omoi]

CronicleChicken wrote...

How many credits do you have?

2,936,210
I don't farm, and I don't ever plan to.

And yes, I regularly buy packs to replenish my supplies.
Fell free to check my manifest if you don't believe me. (about the supplies bit)

[Yajuu Omoi]

fatmancory wrote...

I'm really curious, How does camping hurt any of you guys? As op stated you could leave as soon as you get into a match, and camping helps new player learn the ropes and get better gear so they don't have to camp.

So I ask again, how does camping hurt any of you?

First camping =/= farming
Farming = doing ONE thing the ENTIRE match only for the sake of max credits with minimal effort.

It does not exactly "hurt" anyone.
It DOES however spread like cockroaches. For a new player to "learn the ropes" like that will hurt them in the long run. They will think that that is the ONLY way to play, or that they are ready for a regular gold when they aren't even ready for silver.

Its not so much that farming is "bad" more that it can cause bad players to think they are better than they are...which causes the better players to have a harder time either finding a legit game or surviving said legit game while trying to carry those that were not ready.

[Anduin The Grey]

I think we should move away from terms like farming and camping, as they are not black and white terms, they can mean different things to different people. For some, camping is sitting behind the bench and not moving at all. When I farm credits with friends (or if I find myself finding an FBWG on UUG) I only sit at the side counter (the one with a view at the ladder from the landing pad) when I use my MQI, good for lighting up targets within 20m), any other except for Kroguard (if I want a laugh) I generally move where needed. Yes, we/I keep to the counters but ala GoW style where breaches are inevitable, you have to be prepared to lose it, move where it is most advantageous to move and then retake the position as soon as possible.

20 mins and using this method I don't have to use any equipement and use little to no consumables, unlike random UUG games where I will equipe gear depending on how I feel at the time and where weak builds/inexperienced players/low N& Ranks (which normally, but not always mean Avenger loadouts) can cause me to use more consumables than I normally would.

Funneling the enemy into a kill zone is like shooting fish in a barrel and considering how many I hate Geth threads are this is a perfect solution but not one just limited to FBW.

As the OP stated (though paraphrased), control, contain, slaughter, this is what teamwork should be aiming at doing in my view it's using the terrain/maps to your best advantage or controlling the spawns before and while they are happening.

Run and gunning is fun but c'mon, if you're the type of gamer who enters a random co-op lobby and expect run & gunner parties, you're doing it wrong.

Modifié par Anduin The Grey, 08 octobre 2012 - 09:58 .