176 réponses à ce sujet

[Oz not Ozzy]

Dominoiz wrote...

Videogames are suppossed to be fun (running around) and not boring (camping)

Subjective opinion... at best.

Ashen Earth wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

How camping can be seen to be "exploiting" any more than rushing a spawn (which you "magically") know about is beyond me.

As magical as it  may seem, it's really nothing more than a skill you develop from playing faction other than the Geth on maps other than Firebase White while emplyoing a wide variety tactics that don't involve sitting in one location for the duration of the match.

WOW.... way to COMPLETELY miss the point!

mbergeron468 wrote...

Well this is a video game and the enemy has  limited intelligence and cannot adapt to a farming method so
to bring up actual warfare is just silly. If the enemies were controlled by human players I am sure that farming would have been stopped long ago. If you want to use the point to wrote then speedrunning does just
that by forcing the enemy into a certain area giving yourself an advantage to kill them, but much quicker than farming. With camping you are simply having the enemy march to their death and you are killing helpless opponents.

I would argue that the enemy marching towards the camp are considerably less helpless than poor bastards being spawn-raped.

Schneidend wrote...

The problem, that I am now restating for the third time, is that the specific actions taken in farming matches cause the AI to make poor decisions that does not match up with what they would normally do. The problem is not bottle-necking the geth, but that this specific bottlenecking technique causes them to walk up to players in a suicidal fashion rather than take cover or attempt to flank like they normally would.

And I heard you the first time...

However, having played countless games on every single map against every single enemy.... farming... speedrunning... camping... run and gun... you name it... I've done it.... and I completely disagree with your argument because, with all that experience, I completely and utterly fail to understand how the AI's approach to the counters in the lower lab of Firebase White differs from their behaviour anywhere else.

You say they don't take cover... well I see them taking cover at either side of the doorway at the bottom of the inside stairwell all the time... as well as behind the low walls at the bottom of the outside stairwell, behind the corner of the wall at the top of the outside stairs, etc.

You say they don't flank and, paraphrasing a previous post I made, if that's the case than I guess I must have imagined all those times an enemy snuck in the back door and bit me on the proverbial ass.

The AI does take the same cover and flanking actions if you're holed up behind those counters... it's just that the opportunities to do so effectively are limited by the terrain... just the same as they are by a team holing up in certain places on most (if not all) of the other maps.... this one just happens to have been well publicised.

That is not so much exploiting the AI in as much as it is exploiting the terrain to your best advantage... which is what any good soldier (virtual or otherwise) should do.

Complaining about people employing a tactic that is proven and successful is liable to garner about as much success as launching a campaign against the Borg.... it might work for a few people... but for the vast majority it will be an exercise in futile resistance.

Modifié par Oz not Ozzy, 08 octobre 2012 - 11:16 .

[nbiscuitz]

to me, FBWGG is good for pug farming, everyone knows what to do (whether good or bad). the point of the game is to unlock things, fighting through the hord mode is the way to get there (gain credit). so which ever easily done way is the is best. it's like working through your job to get paid, everyone wants to go for the highest paid job that doesn't require you to do anything. That's the nature of it.

this really reminds me of the days of FFXI, meriting party always go for the colibri camp, 3 piercing dds, 2 enhancer (bard or corsair) and a rdm (or other healer) combo. its effective, most xp per hour gain.

Whether camping at FBWGG is the most effective or not, it's the easiest to accomplish from pugs. i think it's tactical, just because its a widely known and used tactic doesn't mean it's abusing ai. thats how the ai works, and the map is good for such tactic. so why not? just a easier way to work for getting paid.

this now also remind me of counter-strike where there are no rewards and still play lots of. games these days offering rewards/achievements/must have mp really shows how gaming has changed. Just imagine how the ME3 MP would be like without all the unlocks ...haha

[Uh Cold]

outsidefactor wrote...
Wrong: playing a game and it being fun is reason to play a game. If you enjoy camping, then camp. If you don't, then don't. Just stop telling other people how to have fun.

The same type of logic can be said for people who cheat, if they enjoy a game by cheating in it let them cheat?
The point many good BSN players are trying to make is by being "tactical" on FBW you cheat yourself the opportunity of actually becoming a good player.
You can grind credits forever and still never be a reliable teammate because the habits you adopt as "tactical" make you a liability on a good team.
The same goes for players who play plat. only on certain maps.. I've yet to find a good group who can run u/u/p without me bending over backwards to carry the damn team.

In the end rushing spawns is  the most effective playstyle but not the most enjoyable, unless you have 4 players working together in sync constanly forcing spawns.
And no I'm not talking about glacier.

Modifié par Uh Cold, 08 octobre 2012 - 11:27 .

[ParatrooperSean]

Uh Cold wrote...

outsidefactor wrote...
Wrong: playing a game and it being fun is reason to play a game. If you enjoy camping, then camp. If you don't, then don't. Just stop telling other people how to have fun.

The same type of logic can be said for people who cheat, if they enjoy a game by cheating in it let them cheat?
The point many good BSN players are trying to make is by being "tactical" on FBW you cheat yourself the opportunity of actually becoming a good player.
You can grind credits forever and still never be a reliable teammate because the habits you adopt as "tactical" make you a liability on a good team.
The same goes for players who play plat. only on certain maps.. I've yet to find a good group who can run u/u/p without me bending over backwards to carry the damn team.

In the end rushing spawns is  the most effective playstyle but not the most enjoyable, unless you have 4 players working together in sync constanly forcing spawns.
And no I'm not talking about glacier.

Apples and oranges. You're comparing one (of many) tactical choices to using hacks and bugs in a way that adversely affect other players and/or Bioware.

Why would you worry about whether or not farmers are reliable teammates? Presumably if they do nothing but farm they won't ever be on your team. And if they do end up on your team, that means they're branching out from farming - a good thing according to you.

[78stonewobble]

Uh Cold wrote...

outsidefactor wrote...
Wrong: playing a game and it being fun is reason to play a game. If you enjoy camping, then camp. If you don't, then don't. Just stop telling other people how to have fun.

The same type of logic can be said for people who cheat, if they enjoy a game by cheating in it let them cheat?
The point many good BSN players are trying to make is by being "tactical" on FBW you cheat yourself the opportunity of actually becoming a good player.
You can grind credits forever and still never be a reliable teammate because the habits you adopt as "tactical" make you a liability on a good team.
The same goes for players who play plat. only on certain maps.. I've yet to find a good group who can run u/u/p without me bending over backwards to carry the damn team.

In the end rushing spawns is  the most effective playstyle but not the most enjoyable, unless you have 4 players working together in sync constanly forcing spawns.
And no I'm not talking about glacier.

I actually don't care about others cheating (or farmers, run&gunners and campers) in their games. If they have fun with that so be it.

They don't take away my unlocks from me, they dont prevent me from finding or creating another game.

The reverse of your logic is: I enjoy silver so bioware should delete/nerf platinum and gold so I have more players to play with.

[LeandroBraz]

It's a boring, lazy tactic, that make players stagnate tactically. When they try to play differently, they can't deal with it. They just duck somewhere, and end up flanked by the enemies. The most you challenge yourself, the better you get, and everybody who plays pub want to play with better players. Players won't get better farming...

My major problem with it is when people get into my U/U lobbies, we fall on FBWGG, then they run to do farming. I can't stand to it, too boring, but if I don't play along, I will have a messed match, and most of the times I don't play along =D It's really boring. I prefer to hold the classic position, on the top of the platform. It still easy to hold, but you have more things going on, it's more fun...

[SimulatedSnowman]

Relating real life military strategy and tactics to a video game is stupid. Yes, it is smart tactically to limit your enemies' avenue of approach. Yes, it is tactically smart to operate from a relatively safe position with access to supply. No, it is not tactically smart to run around the battlefield, flinging space magic from your hands and not completing your reload operation because it's faster. This video game has extremely little in common with what a person would do in real life, so comparing it is ridiculous.

That being said, if you can have fun hanging out behind a counter for a whole match, go for it. I have fun when I play multiplayer in a different way than you do, but it's not because I hate tactical play. It's because tactics in video games and tactics in real life are totally separate ideas, and the tactics you're describing are boring as hell for the purpose of video games.

[78stonewobble]

Seriously guys... The idea of subjective taste isn't that hard to grasp.

"I like the colour red." does not mean that purple is a wrong colour in general or that other people aren't allowed to like purple. Heck it doesn't even really give me the right to look down on people who like purple.

The only thing "I like the colour red" means is ... I like the colour red. It has nothing what so ever to do with other people or some ridiculous idea of colour "validity".

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 08 octobre 2012 - 02:58 .

[Anduin The Grey]

Uh Cold wrote...

outsidefactor wrote...
Wrong: playing a game and it being fun is reason to play a game. If you enjoy camping, then camp. If you don't, then don't. Just stop telling other people how to have fun.

The same type of logic can be said for people who cheat, if they enjoy a game by cheating in it let them cheat?
The point many good BSN players are trying to make is by being "tactical" on FBW you cheat yourself the opportunity of actually becoming a good player.
You can grind credits forever and still never be a reliable teammate because the habits you adopt as "tactical" make you a liability on a good team.
The same goes for players who play plat. only on certain maps.. I've yet to find a good group who can run u/u/p without me bending over backwards to carry the damn team.

In the end rushing spawns is  the most effective playstyle but not the most enjoyable, unless you have 4 players working together in sync constanly forcing spawns.
And no I'm not talking about glacier.

The point most farmers/campers make is, don't tell them how to have fun and I think the same goes for everyone no?

[Anduin The Grey]

SimulatedSnowman wrote...

Relating real life military strategy and tactics to a video game is stupid. Yes, it is smart tactically to limit your enemies' avenue of approach. Yes, it is tactically smart to operate from a relatively safe position with access to supply. No, it is not tactically smart to run around the battlefield, flinging space magic from your hands and not completing your reload operation because it's faster. This video game has extremely little in common with what a person would do in real life, so comparing it is ridiculous.

That being said, if you can have fun hanging out behind a counter for a whole match, go for it. I have fun when I play multiplayer in a different way than you do, but it's not because I hate tactical play. It's because tactics in video games and tactics in real life are totally separate ideas, and the tactics you're describing are boring as hell for the purpose of video games.

Spending hours on a video game using all your consumables working out how to get through Gold solo with an Avenger is also stupid and very unlikely to make you a better player as well .

Modifié par Anduin The Grey, 08 octobre 2012 - 03:00 .

[Deucetipher]

While I agree with OP's general point, I think he is perhaps overstating and misframing the problem.

1. Overstating because there is no populist majority deriding farming, but a vocal minority. Most players who avoid farming (and I include myself) frankly do not care about those who farm. Play your game as you like.

2. Misframing because he is not defending "tactical play," but farming specifically. "Tactical play" is such an inclusive term as to be nearly meaningless in effective argumentation. Load out choice, consumable use, faction+map selection, force spawning etc, all of these are examples of "tactical play." I understand OP chose this as a way to strengthen his argument, but it is unsound.

As to the merits, "farming" is merely exploiting the geth's major weakness. I u/u/g almost exclusively, and each faction has it's own patterns. The geth will run at you directly, with minimal flanking and generally lack survivability but compensate for this with higher dps and crowd control. A good player uses this by spending less time in sight of the geth as compared to other factions. FBW/G/G merely distills to the utmost what every good player does anyway, in such a fashion as to make it accessible to lower-caliber players.

Edit:
As an addendum, the greatest argument against farming is actually an argument against the matchmaking.  Searching for u/u/g does often default to FBW/g/g, but that is not the fault of farming, but of less than ideal matchmaking. 

Modifié par Deucetipher, 08 octobre 2012 - 03:22 .

[Anduin The Grey]

Deucetipher wrote...

While I agree with OP's general point, I think he is perhaps overstating and misframing the problem.

1. Overstating because there is no populist majority deriding farming, but a vocal minority. Most players who avoid farming (and I include myself) frankly do not care about those who farm. Play your game as you like.

2. Misframing because he is not defending "tactical play," but farming specifically. "Tactical play" is such an inclusive term as to be nearly meaningless in effective argumentation. Load out choice, consumable use, faction+map selection, force spawning etc, all of these are examples of "tactical play." I understand OP chose this as a way to strengthen his argument, but it is unsound.

As to the merits, "farming" is merely exploiting the geth's major weakness. I u/u/g almost exclusively, and each faction has it's own patterns. The geth will run at you directly, with minimal flanking and generally lack survivability but compensate for this with higher dps and crowd control. A good player uses this by spending less time in sight of the geth as compared to other factions. FBW/G/G merely distills to the utmost what every good player does anyway, in such a fashion as to make it accessible to lower-caliber players.

Any map, any faction, any difficulty from Gold down can be farmed.

Banshees? Leave 'em till last, objectives and 3 Banshees? Wait till the last moment then get them all in one go, they'll respawn a couple times but you leave it till the last minute to stretch out completing the objective.

Everything has a tactic and a way to be farmed, if you're mad/jealous of people who have busy lives (work/family) or young kids who are on YouTube looking for the best method to get those unlocks you really need something better to do, if you are complaining about legitimate farming you might as well go complain to the Farmville makers.

[N Malboeuf]

outsidefactor wrote...

There is thread after thread on these boards of people discussing, in tones from the moderate to the outraged, 'farming' Blablablabla

it's farming, it's a tactic called farming, but at the same time there is no tactical planning in it, if you think so then you would get toss on your ass in a real fight as they would throw more nade in your lil hole.

recently I have played platnium matches where players are out and about and usually  use 2-4 man 2 choke points with fall back positions, now those are players with skills

do you seriously think Geth would actually slaughter them selves one at a time and not just all rush in at once or nade the fk out of your cubby (counter) hole.

I think our enemies need random ammo addons

[Deucetipher]

Anduin The Grey wrote...

Deucetipher wrote...

While I agree with OP's general point, I think he is perhaps overstating and misframing the problem.

1. Overstating because there is no populist majority deriding farming, but a vocal minority. Most players who avoid farming (and I include myself) frankly do not care about those who farm. Play your game as you like.

2. Misframing because he is not defending "tactical play," but farming specifically. "Tactical play" is such an inclusive term as to be nearly meaningless in effective argumentation. Load out choice, consumable use, faction+map selection, force spawning etc, all of these are examples of "tactical play." I understand OP chose this as a way to strengthen his argument, but it is unsound.

As to the merits, "farming" is merely exploiting the geth's major weakness. I u/u/g almost exclusively, and each faction has it's own patterns. The geth will run at you directly, with minimal flanking and generally lack survivability but compensate for this with higher dps and crowd control. A good player uses this by spending less time in sight of the geth as compared to other factions. FBW/G/G merely distills to the utmost what every good player does anyway, in such a fashion as to make it accessible to lower-caliber players.

Any map, any faction, any difficulty from Gold down can be farmed.

Banshees? Leave 'em till last, objectives and 3 Banshees? Wait till the last moment then get them all in one go, they'll respawn a couple times but you leave it till the last minute to stretch out completing the objective.

Everything has a tactic and a way to be farmed, if you're mad/jealous of people who have busy lives (work/family) or young kids who are on YouTube looking for the best method to get those unlocks you really need something better to do, if you are complaining about legitimate farming you might as well go complain to the Farmville makers.

That is an interesting response, to say the least.  As I stated, I actually agree with the OP on the merits; it is merely his framing of the problem that I quibble with.  I am neither mad or jealous, and ad hominem arguments are generally not constructive.

As to your first point, Platinum can also be farmed.  Also, I never asserted that farming could not be done on other maps and factions.

[Neizd]

I hate farming...why buy the game and farm to lessen personal gaming experience? :| with equipment from farmed credits you can't even look at your multiplayer manifest and be proud that you tried very hard, sometimes loosing, sometimes winning and everything you own is from your hard work...

[Anduin The Grey]

Deucetipher wrote...

Anduin The Grey wrote...

Deucetipher wrote...

While I agree with OP's general point, I think he is perhaps overstating and misframing the problem.

1. Overstating because there is no populist majority deriding farming, but a vocal minority. Most players who avoid farming (and I include myself) frankly do not care about those who farm. Play your game as you like.

2. Misframing because he is not defending "tactical play," but farming specifically. "Tactical play" is such an inclusive term as to be nearly meaningless in effective argumentation. Load out choice, consumable use, faction+map selection, force spawning etc, all of these are examples of "tactical play." I understand OP chose this as a way to strengthen his argument, but it is unsound.

As to the merits, "farming" is merely exploiting the geth's major weakness. I u/u/g almost exclusively, and each faction has it's own patterns. The geth will run at you directly, with minimal flanking and generally lack survivability but compensate for this with higher dps and crowd control. A good player uses this by spending less time in sight of the geth as compared to other factions. FBW/G/G merely distills to the utmost what every good player does anyway, in such a fashion as to make it accessible to lower-caliber players.

Any map, any faction, any difficulty from Gold down can be farmed.

Banshees? Leave 'em till last, objectives and 3 Banshees? Wait till the last moment then get them all in one go, they'll respawn a couple times but you leave it till the last minute to stretch out completing the objective.

Everything has a tactic and a way to be farmed, if you're mad/jealous of people who have busy lives (work/family) or young kids who are on YouTube looking for the best method to get those unlocks you really need something better to do, if you are complaining about legitimate farming you might as well go complain to the Farmville makers.

That is an interesting response, to say the least.  As I stated, I actually agree with the OP on the merits; it is merely his framing of the problem that I quibble with.  I am neither mad or jealous, and ad hominem arguments are generally not constructive.

As to your first point, Platinum can also be farmed.  Also, I never asserted that farming could not be done on other maps and factions.

Ugh, apologies Deucetipher, talk about a senior moment there! I either completely misread your post or clicked the wrong quote button (I am now sorely lacking a dunce smiley)!

[Anduin The Grey]

Neizd wrote...

I hate farming...why buy the game and farm to lessen personal gaming experience? :| with equipment from farmed credits you can't even look at your multiplayer manifest and be proud that you tried very hard, sometimes loosing, sometimes winning and everything you own is from your hard work...

I take it you don't remember what it was like to actually do a Bronze when the game came out?

[mackfactor]

Dominoiz wrote...

It's a videogame, not a real war.
Videogames are suppossed to be fun (running around) and not boring (camping)

Video games are supposed to be played however the player wants to. Running around might be your fun, but farming to generate credits and complete a manifest might be someone else's. Some people might want to play it as more of a combat sim. And in real combat, you would generally "farm" - that is camp and bottleneck your enemy, particularly when faced with such vastly superior numbers. In military strategy, tactics like this are called force multipliers, and they are embraced and used as much as possible. Holding a defensive position where you can't be swarmed is vastly superior to "running around." If someone has fun doing that, who are you to tell them they are wrong?

[mackfactor]

N Malboeuf wrote...

outsidefactor wrote...

There is thread after thread on these boards of people discussing, in tones from the moderate to the outraged, 'farming' Blablablabla

it's farming, it's a tactic called farming, but at the same time there is no tactical planning in it, if you think so then you would get toss on your ass in a real fight as they would throw more nade in your lil hole.

recently I have played platnium matches where players are out and about and usually  use 2-4 man 2 choke points with fall back positions, now those are players with skills

do you seriously think Geth would actually slaughter them selves one at a time and not just all rush in at once or nade the fk out of your cubby (counter) hole.

I think our enemies need random ammo addons

I think it's safe to say that all factions would act tremendously different in "real" combat, not just the Geth. If you want to complain about enemy tactics, there's a lot more to talk about. Complain about technological limits and cost prohibitive hardware if you have an issue with that.

[Neizd]

Anduin The Grey wrote...

Neizd wrote...

I hate farming...why buy the game and farm to lessen personal gaming experience? :| with equipment from farmed credits you can't even look at your multiplayer manifest and be proud that you tried very hard, sometimes loosing, sometimes winning and everything you own is from your hard work...

I take it you don't remember what it was like to actually do a Bronze when the game came out?

It was easy with good team, hard with random people that just wanted to play solo, ran around everywhere and got themselves killed because of some points. I played the game since the first day the demo came out and had it preordered, and NEVER not once did I farm on firebase white behind the counter. I can say that all of my equipment I got by playing fair not exploiting developer's mistakes.

[mackfactor]

Neizd wrote...

Anduin The Grey wrote...

Neizd wrote...

I hate farming...why buy the game and farm to lessen personal gaming experience? :| with equipment from farmed credits you can't even look at your multiplayer manifest and be proud that you tried very hard, sometimes loosing, sometimes winning and everything you own is from your hard work...

I take it you don't remember what it was like to actually do a Bronze when the game came out?

It was easy with good team, hard with random people that just wanted to play solo, ran around everywhere and got themselves killed because of some points. I played the game since the first day the demo came out and had it preordered, and NEVER not once did I farm on firebase white behind the counter. I can say that all of my equipment I got by playing fair not exploiting developer's mistakes.

Yay, your artificial ME3 honor is intact! That certainly makes you a better person and gives you higher value to society than anyone who's ever done a FBWGG match.

What was the point again?

[Zero132132]

I find the OP's claim strange. Speedruns and speedrunners are largely well-respected on BSN. That's tactical play; manipulating spawns and using an understanding of the game mechanics to clear something quickly. It's only really camping that seems to be largely disrespected.

[78stonewobble]

mackfactor wrote...

Yay, your artificial ME3 honor is intact! That certainly makes you a better person and gives you higher value to society than anyone who's ever done a FBWGG match.

What was the point again?

Well it's not like he kited the enemies, exploited the predictable spawns, used cover or manipulated the poor ai. I'm actually betting he held every hack-circle in keeping with the spirit of the game.

[Deucetipher]

Anduin The Grey wrote...

Ugh, apologies Deucetipher, talk about a senior moment there! I either completely misread your post or clicked the wrong quote button (I am now sorely lacking a dunce smiley)!

No problem! Seemed a bit disjointed, as compared to your regular posting.  We're good. 

Modifié par Deucetipher, 08 octobre 2012 - 07:31 .

[STRANGE10VE]

I don't think the majority of "farmers" are stupid or unskilled, they just want to upgrade their manifest. It is much easier and more effective to rambo gold or platinum with a Destroyer carrying a harrier V and  piranha X than a HS carrying a vindicator V and eviserator VI.  Those of us that started playing this game in march had a total of 134 gold unlockables.  There are now 365 gold unlockables, level IV consummables and all the silver gear.  All of these additions make it nearly impossible for newer players to get good high level guns and characters without a little "farming".