1304 réponses à ce sujet

[Yate]

I've seen this view expressed in various places, and I wanted to set the record straight.

The Destroy ending is not genocide. The geth are not living things. They are machines that can be rebuilt. It's said as much by the catalyst.

If you sold Legion to Cerberus, a perfect copy of it is made by the geth. 'Death' is not the same for synthetics as it is for organics.

Even if you want to argue the geth are alive and have souls (they do not) their 'lives' are not the same as organic lives. If you delete a few of Legion's programs, it's central intelligence is not destroyed. It is a hivemind. Same is true for EDI, who uses the first-person only because it was designed to interface with humans. 'Death' for them is not permanent or absolute.

Destroy is not genocide. If the relays can be rebuilt, so can the geth.

[HiddenInWar]

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

[Taboo]

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

One might argue that a soul is an abstraction. Meaningless.

[Yate]

Define a soul then get back to me.

[Xilizhra]

Your vitalism is fun. You'd be the first to be pissed off about the Reapers still being around, in-universe, certainly... ah well. It's of no real concern to me.

[Ned Starks Head]

Yate wrote...

Define a soul then get back to me.

A genre of music.

[dreamgazer]

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

if a person proclaims that they don't have a soul, does that make them a machine?

[Taboo]

dreamgazer wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

if a person proclaims that they don't have a soul, does that make them a machine?

That's deep bro. Seriously.

[dreamgazer]

Taboo-XX wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

if a person proclaims that they don't have a soul, does that make them a machine?

That's deep bro. Seriously.

:innocent:

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

if a person proclaims that they don't have a soul, does that make them a machine?

You just blew my mind

[MegaSovereign]

Are atheists robots?

[fiendishchicken]

Destroy is not genocide. It's a sacrifice.

In a war such as this, any and all casualties are acceptable so long as the Reapers are destroyed. Shepard cares about the Geth and EDI, but if killing the Reapers means that they have to die, then so be it. Shepard makes that decision in a heartbeat. He regrets that they have to die, but it's not his fault. The Reapers must be destroyed.

[Hudathan]

The Geth are people, doesn't mean they can't be sacrificed to save the galaxy.

[Xilizhra]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Destroy is not genocide. It's a sacrifice.

In a war such as this, any and all casualties are acceptable so long as the Reapers are destroyed. Shepard cares about the Geth and EDI, but if killing the Reapers means that they have to die, then so be it. Shepard makes that decision in a heartbeat. He regrets that they have to die, but it's not his fault. The Reapers must be destroyed.

Sacrificial genocide. And my own goal was never to kill the Reapers, but to preserve the galaxy. If I may do so better by preserving the Reaperes in some way, so be it.

[Lionel Ou]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Are atheists robots?

Will robots be atheists?

[Obadiah]

Wikpedia has this as the first paragraph of its article on Genocide:

Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group", though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars. While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

I'd say by this definition, Shepard commits genocide against the Reapers, and other AI are massive collateral damage.

I don't think it could be called genocide unless Shepard had an active intent to wipe out all AI.

Edit:
The Crucible is a Weapon of Mass Destruction. It is a weapon that, especially in low EMS, had the potential to destroy a massive amount of oraganic and syntheitc life on a galactic scale. Its blast wave appears to cover the galaxy. It affects any organism that could have survived previous Reaper cycles like the Thorian, Javik, and Leviathan, and every life-from in the 99% of the rest of the galaxy that is unexplored.

Like all WMDs the Crucible has the potential to wipe out ethnic groups that happen to only exist in its area of effect. Think of a nuclear strike. It can kill thousands in the first strike, and hundreds of thousands (or millions?) with the after effects. Every time one of those is used there is a chance it could wipe out an ethnic group. If one can justify use of WMDs, perhaps as a retaliatory nuclear strike, and if that massive collateral damage can be considered to be genocide, then one has justified genocide - in this real world age.

As such I think the question on what the collateral damage is called, be it "Genocide", "Mass Murder", or something else is beside the point and about as useful as name-calling.

I think people who believe that Destroy is Genocide, a war crime, should not pick it.

I think people who do not believe that Destroy is Genocide should not be overly troubled by that designation by others. The potential collateral damage is consideration enough.

Wikipedia also has this on the doctrine of Military Necessity from Luis Moreno-Ocampo, Chief Prosecutor at the International Criminal Court:

Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)((i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality) (Article 8(2)((iv).

Article 8(2)((iv) criminalizes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
Article 8(2)((iv) draws on the principles in Article 51(5)( of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, but restricts the criminal prohibition to cases that are "clearly" excessive. The application of Article 8(2)((iv) requires, inter alia, an assessment of:
(a) the anticipated civilian damage or injury;
( the anticipated military advantage;
© and whether (a) was "clearly excessive" in relation to (.

Modifié par Obadiah, 09 octobre 2012 - 12:30 .

[Jadebaby]

Redundant.

After the Geth upload the Reaper code each unit gains individual sentience. Sure, the software can be recreated, but without that Reaper code anomaly they will never be truly the same again.

So yes, it is genocide. You monster. This thread is racist, and you should feel bad.

[Xilizhra]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Redundant.

After the Geth upload the Reaper code each unit gains individual sentience. Sure, the software can be recreated, but without that Reaper code anomaly they will never be truly the same again.

So yes, it is genocide. You monster. This thread is racist, and you should feel bad.

Not to mention that all of the memories and identity of the original geth have been obliterated, even from before the Reaper code.

[Jadebaby]

Lionel Ou wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Are atheists robots?

Will robots be atheists?

Well the heretic reffered to the Reaper as their machine gods.. So I guess not.

[Taboo]

If the Geth are dead above Rannoch you have a free pass. Well almost. EDI is still there.

[Lionel Ou]

Jade8aby88 wrote...
This thread is racist speciest unkind to creatures built in different ways, and you should feel bad.

[AresKeith]

Taboo-XX wrote...

If the Geth are dead above Rannoch you have a free pass. Well almost. EDI is still there.

Then you killed Joker's woman, and now he wishes that Miranda died

[Xilizhra]

Taboo-XX wrote...

If the Geth are dead above Rannoch you have a free pass. Well almost. EDI is still there.

Yes, but such requires ridiculous incompetence...

[Lionel Ou]

Taboo-XX wrote...

If the Geth are dead above Rannoch you have a free pass. Well almost. EDI is still there.

Damn reaper half blood. Purify the galaxy of such filth.

[Lionel Ou]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Lionel Ou wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Are atheists robots?

Will robots be atheists?

Well the heretic reffered to the Reaper as their machine gods.. So I guess not.

Only some of them. Fools, all of them fools.