1304 réponses à ce sujet

[Demon560]

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
 this isn't going anywhere lol I didn't make the crucible. Those that did make the crucible didn't deliberately direct it towards the Geth. They got Reaper upgrades, not by my doing. And the Crucible purges Reaper tech. I never foresaw that. And if thats the price to rid the galaxy of the Reapers, well, that is the best choice in the end. A clean slate. Those other choices didn't not complete my goal. Which was to kill the Reapers at any cost.

Catalyst explains before you choose that all synthetic life will die, so you knew exactly what Destroy was going to do before you did it. Like I said, if Destroy fits your Shepard, fine. You just have to accept that you commited genocide in the process.

This is not very different from killing hundreds of thousands of Batarians in Arrival. The player simply has no choice. Should we ask for refund?

And in Arrival you were not given options, or actually wiped out all of the Batarians, where as the endings you get options that allow you to save lives, via control or synthesis, and Destroy wipes out all synthetic life, pretty much exterminate all AI's in the current cycle, so yeah big difference their.

Modifié par Demon560, 08 octobre 2012 - 07:35 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Mcfly616 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Catalyst explains before you choose that all synthetic life will die, so you knew exactly what Destroy was going to do before you did it. Like I said, if Destroy fits your Shepard, fine. You just have to accept that you commited genocide in the process.

This is not very different from killing hundreds of thousands of Batarians in Arrival. The player simply has no choice. Should we ask for refund?

Shepard had two other choices that kept everyone alive, thus different from Arrival.
Also, Shepard did accept that destroying the Alpha Relay would kill 300,000 batarians, and was deeply affected by having no choice.

so since he was "deeply effected" changes the fact that by your standards it would normally be genocide? Wtf?! Lol. I can't even take you seriously.

CATALYST GAVE YOU CHOICES TO SPARE EVERYONE!

[Iconoclaste]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Catalyst explains before you choose that all synthetic life will die, so you knew exactly what Destroy was going to do before you did it. Like I said, if Destroy fits your Shepard, fine. You just have to accept that you commited genocide in the process.

This is not very different from killing hundreds of thousands of Batarians in Arrival. The player simply has no choice. Should we ask for refund?

Shepard had two other choices that kept everyone alive, thus different from Arrival.
Also, Shepard did accept that destroying the Alpha Relay would kill 300,000 batarians, and was deeply affected by having no choice.

In Arrival, there is no big doubt about what is going to happen, and the players have no choice. In the Destroy ending, the Catalyst tells about the future he doesn't even know about, since the Crucible will be used for the first time in the Cycles. The Reapers did not vanish into "thin air" so they were not absolutely "destroyed". Since the primary purpose of the "Destroy" option is to end the Reaper threat, the "All synthetics will be destroyed" is a "side effect", and by definition of less important amplitude. Since the Reapers did not "vanish", it is believable that "all synthetics" were not "destroyed" in a more complete fashion than the Reapers. Everything else, like this "genocide" thing, is brought up to depict the Destroy ending as "inacceptable" for a "normal player". This is called the "Straw man" argument : to depict opposition as of a monstrous opinion by distorting the facts at the basis of the discussion.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 08 octobre 2012 - 07:38 .

[Obadiah]

It occurs to me, that this is not a question of Destroy, its a question of the use of weapons of mass destruction, which have the potential to do this any time they are used.

[Mcfly616]

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The thing your missing here is the full equation. The act of genocide was done becasue of the extreme events around Shepard. The only time  you can  say the choice is the will of the person doing it is when the choice is choosen in an event not forcing it. If you had no reason to and did it for some political /social reason, then the person is at full fault.

This a choise or everyone dies event.

But it was a choice because the Catalyst gave you other options. I'm not saying nobody should choose Destroy, but they must accept that genocide is a result of that choice.

that's not genocide. And there is nothing "systematic" or "methodical" about shooting the tube. That's like saying a guy that chooses to save an entire train of people whilst sacrificing his 2 yr old in the wreck, is a "murderer". Well, view it however you like but I dont think he set out that day to Kill his son....I think an unforeseen set of circumstances led to that point where the man was met with a choice he had to make, and he made a decision for the greater good. I wouldn't label him a murderer. Just as I don't label Destroy genocide.

Genocide is not inherit with how you do it. It only a defind as an act the cause death to a large group or ethiciity. It matters not if you did not kill the directly.

Even dictators are charged with genocide when they themselves did not kill the group of people directly.

Yes, exactly, and their goals didn't even have to be to kill a group. Hitler didn't have the jews killed just for the sake of killing jews, he thoguht he was making the world better and removing differences and causes for conflict. Which is still Genocide even if the killing itself wasn't the goal of his policies, just a sideeffect of his goals to create a better world.
That's how such thigns happen, people with strong beliefs who think it's ok to sacrifise some people for the greater good.
When you willingly sacrifise some peopel because you think the world will become a better place or because you want revenge on someone else then it's not a good deed, it's just genocide no matter what.

Now if there had only been the Destroy option, and no other possible options save for Refuse, then it's very different, everyone is already doomed and you have to save who you can, but picking genocide when there are viable alternatives that will save everyone, is genocide since it's very much deliberate.

you're either a very sick individual or you are very uneducated. I've studied the Holocaust for 10 years and you sir are the biggest hypocrite here. If anything, you just literally tried to "rationalize" Hitler's actions. News Flash: Hitler's goal was Genocide, regardless of how he "felt" about it or what his "policies" were. He wanted them EXTERMINATED. His goal was the complete annihilation of the Jews. Lol to say anything less is a contrived lie. I could not give a damn about if he thought he was doing good for the world. The man was a lunatic.

By the way, Shepard never woke up and started directing everyone to kill all Geth and that it was for the betterment of the galaxy. No, he arrived at a point where he could end a threat that's been manipulating and terrorizing the galaxy for millions upon millions of years. And upon arriving at that point, he was told that destroying the Reapers would effect anything derived from Reaper tech. That sucks....but it don't make it genocide.

That not a case that it genocide or not. The just a case that he was a person at a time of no conflict did those horrible acts.
The case is different with Shepard but it does not make it any less of a genocide...It just make Shepard not a bad person for doing it because he /she had no choice.

Genocide is not defined as a horrid act of killing an ethic group that is done by the persons or group doing it own accord with nothing forcing it to do it...

It's ...http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/genocide
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.

you literally pulled out a definition that proves my point and discarded yours in its first sentence....

Key word in that definition is "systematic". Meaning : Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.


What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION.

what Hitler did, was absolutely systematic and genocide.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Catalyst explains before you choose that all synthetic life will die, so you knew exactly what Destroy was going to do before you did it. Like I said, if Destroy fits your Shepard, fine. You just have to accept that you commited genocide in the process.

This is not very different from killing hundreds of thousands of Batarians in Arrival. The player simply has no choice. Should we ask for refund?

Shepard had two other choices that kept everyone alive, thus different from Arrival.
Also, Shepard did accept that destroying the Alpha Relay would kill 300,000 batarians, and was deeply affected by having no choice.

In Arrival, there is no big doubt about what is going to happen, and the players have no choice. In the Destroy ending, the Catalyst tells about the future he doesn't even know about, since the Crucible will be used for the first time in the Cycles. The Reapers did not vanish into "thin air" so they were not absolutely "destroyed". Since the primary purpose of the "Destroy" option is to end the Reaper threat, the "All synthetics will be destroyed" is a "side effect", and by definition of less important amplitude. Since the Reapers did not "vanish", it is believable that "all synthetics" were not "destroyed" in a more complete fashion than the Reapers. Everything else, like this "genocide" thing, is brought up to depict the Destroy ending as "inacceptable" for a "normal player". This is called the "Stray man" argument : to depict opposition as of a monstrous opinion by distorting the facts at the basis of the discussion.

The Reapers died, just as Catalyst stated. Therefore, all synthetic life died, as Catalyst also stated. It doesn't matter whether their bodies remained or not, those are now only corpses. What made synthetic life alive was their mind, which must've been the target since as you said the shells remained. Again, if Destroy fits someone, they can do it. I'm just stating there's a downside to it as well. Same can go for any ending or even ingame choice.

[Iconoclaste]

Obadiah wrote...

It occurs to me, that this is not a question of Destroy, its a question of the use of weapons of mass destruction, which have the potential to do this any time they are used.

We already know the outcome of usage of mass destruction weapons. In the game, no one knows of the effects of the Crucible, and the players are facing total extinction of whole species vs destruction of "constructs". Debaters level-up these "constructs" to equate "advanced organic species" to try to justify accusations of "genocide".

[Mcfly616]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Catalyst explains before you choose that all synthetic life will die, so you knew exactly what Destroy was going to do before you did it. Like I said, if Destroy fits your Shepard, fine. You just have to accept that you commited genocide in the process.

This is not very different from killing hundreds of thousands of Batarians in Arrival. The player simply has no choice. Should we ask for refund?

Shepard had two other choices that kept everyone alive, thus different from Arrival.
Also, Shepard did accept that destroying the Alpha Relay would kill 300,000 batarians, and was deeply affected by having no choice.

so since he was "deeply effected" changes the fact that by your standards it would normally be genocide? Wtf?! Lol. I can't even take you seriously.

CATALYST GAVE YOU CHOICES TO SPARE EVERYONE!

oh right, those two choices that spare the Reapers? And especially that other one that changes everyone and everything? Doesn't change my point.

[LucasShark]

- There are a group of sentient beings
- they are alive before destroy
- They are all dead after destroy because of their arbitrary desegnation

Sounds like genocide to me.

[Maxster_]

Mcfly616 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The thing your missing here is the full equation. The act of genocide was done becasue of the extreme events around Shepard. The only time  you can  say the choice is the will of the person doing it is when the choice is choosen in an event not forcing it. If you had no reason to and did it for some political /social reason, then the person is at full fault.

This a choise or everyone dies event.

But it was a choice because the Catalyst gave you other options. I'm not saying nobody should choose Destroy, but they must accept that genocide is a result of that choice.

that's not genocide. And there is nothing "systematic" or "methodical" about shooting the tube. That's like saying a guy that chooses to save an entire train of people whilst sacrificing his 2 yr old in the wreck, is a "murderer". Well, view it however you like but I dont think he set out that day to Kill his son....I think an unforeseen set of circumstances led to that point where the man was met with a choice he had to make, and he made a decision for the greater good. I wouldn't label him a murderer. Just as I don't label Destroy genocide.

Genocide is not inherit with how you do it. It only a defind as an act the cause death to a large group or ethiciity. It matters not if you did not kill the directly.

Even dictators are charged with genocide when they themselves did not kill the group of people directly.

Yes, exactly, and their goals didn't even have to be to kill a group. Hitler didn't have the jews killed just for the sake of killing jews, he thoguht he was making the world better and removing differences and causes for conflict. Which is still Genocide even if the killing itself wasn't the goal of his policies, just a sideeffect of his goals to create a better world.
That's how such thigns happen, people with strong beliefs who think it's ok to sacrifise some people for the greater good.
When you willingly sacrifise some peopel because you think the world will become a better place or because you want revenge on someone else then it's not a good deed, it's just genocide no matter what.

Now if there had only been the Destroy option, and no other possible options save for Refuse, then it's very different, everyone is already doomed and you have to save who you can, but picking genocide when there are viable alternatives that will save everyone, is genocide since it's very much deliberate.

you're either a very sick individual or you are very uneducated. I've studied the Holocaust for 10 years and you sir are the biggest hypocrite here. If anything, you just literally tried to "rationalize" Hitler's actions. News Flash: Hitler's goal was Genocide, regardless of how he "felt" about it or what his "policies" were. He wanted them EXTERMINATED. His goal was the complete annihilation of the Jews. Lol to say anything less is a contrived lie. I could not give a damn about if he thought he was doing good for the world. The man was a lunatic.

By the way, Shepard never woke up and started directing everyone to kill all Geth and that it was for the betterment of the galaxy. No, he arrived at a point where he could end a threat that's been manipulating and terrorizing the galaxy for millions upon millions of years. And upon arriving at that point, he was told that destroying the Reapers would effect anything derived from Reaper tech. That sucks....but it don't make it genocide.

That not a case that it genocide or not. The just a case that he was a person at a time of no conflict did those horrible acts.
The case is different with Shepard but it does not make it any less of a genocide...It just make Shepard not a bad person for doing it because he /she had no choice.

Genocide is not defined as a horrid act of killing an ethic group that is done by the persons or group doing it own accord with nothing forcing it to do it...

It's ...http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/genocide
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.

you literally pulled out a definition that proves my point and discarded yours in its first sentence....

Key word in that definition is "systematic". Meaning : Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.


What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION.

what Hitler did, was absolutely systematic and genocide.

Hitler never had capabilities to destroy entire nation, although he tried very hard.
How can that be systematic, when you destroyed entire race at once? You can't destroy more geth, to set this as systematic, there is no geth anymore.
And this goes for reapers also.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Mcfly616 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Catalyst explains before you choose that all synthetic life will die, so you knew exactly what Destroy was going to do before you did it. Like I said, if Destroy fits your Shepard, fine. You just have to accept that you commited genocide in the process.

This is not very different from killing hundreds of thousands of Batarians in Arrival. The player simply has no choice. Should we ask for refund?

Shepard had two other choices that kept everyone alive, thus different from Arrival.
Also, Shepard did accept that destroying the Alpha Relay would kill 300,000 batarians, and was deeply affected by having no choice.

so since he was "deeply effected" changes the fact that by your standards it would normally be genocide? Wtf?! Lol. I can't even take you seriously.

CATALYST GAVE YOU CHOICES TO SPARE EVERYONE!

oh right, those two choices that spare the Reapers? And especially that other one that changes everyone and everything? Doesn't change my point.

If your Shepard chose Control, just send Reapers into a black hole. There, you just achieved the same goal that you've had and spared the rest of Synthetic life in the process.

[Mcfly616]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

It occurs to me, that this is not a question of Destroy, its a question of the use of weapons of mass destruction, which have the potential to do this any time they are used.

We already know the outcome of usage of mass destruction weapons. In the game, no one knows of the effects of the Crucible, and the players are facing total extinction of whole species vs destruction of "constructs". Debaters level-up these "constructs" to equate "advanced organic species" to try to justify accusations of "genocide".

while I don't agree with your view of the Geth, the rest of your statement is so damn true of this forum lol. It's the same thing with those that debate the intent of the breathe scene. They try to rationalize anyway possible that it was Shepards last breath, just so that they may have yet another reason to b*tch and moan about nothing lol

[Iconoclaste]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

The Reapers died, just as Catalyst stated. Therefore, all synthetic life died, as Catalyst also stated. It doesn't matter whether their bodies remained or not, those are now only corpses. What made synthetic life alive was their mind, which must've been the target since as you said the shells remained. Again, if Destroy fits someone, they can do it. I'm just stating there's a downside to it as well. Same can go for any ending or even ingame choice.

Wrong in the first sentence : the Catalyst never said "synthetics will die", he said "will be destroyed". By subtly replacing words, you are upgrading the "synthetics" to the state of "living beings". The Catalyst makes a clear distinction between the two, explaining the Reapers motivation to "protect organics" against their eradication by "synthetics". You can believe what you want, but I go with what the game is telling me : no "living being" has constant doubts about his own "existence" or "living state", where synthetics simply have to ask the "living" to input this "knowledge" in their circuitry.

[dreman9999]

Maxster_ wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The thing your missing here is the full equation. The act of genocide was done becasue of the extreme events around Shepard. The only time  you can  say the choice is the will of the person doing it is when the choice is choosen in an event not forcing it. If you had no reason to and did it for some political /social reason, then the person is at full fault.

This a choise or everyone dies event.

But it was a choice because the Catalyst gave you other options. I'm not saying nobody should choose Destroy, but they must accept that genocide is a result of that choice.

that's not genocide. And there is nothing "systematic" or "methodical" about shooting the tube. That's like saying a guy that chooses to save an entire train of people whilst sacrificing his 2 yr old in the wreck, is a "murderer". Well, view it however you like but I dont think he set out that day to Kill his son....I think an unforeseen set of circumstances led to that point where the man was met with a choice he had to make, and he made a decision for the greater good. I wouldn't label him a murderer. Just as I don't label Destroy genocide.

Genocide is not inherit with how you do it. It only a defind as an act the cause death to a large group or ethiciity. It matters not if you did not kill the directly.

Even dictators are charged with genocide when they themselves did not kill the group of people directly.

Yes, exactly, and their goals didn't even have to be to kill a group. Hitler didn't have the jews killed just for the sake of killing jews, he thoguht he was making the world better and removing differences and causes for conflict. Which is still Genocide even if the killing itself wasn't the goal of his policies, just a sideeffect of his goals to create a better world.
That's how such thigns happen, people with strong beliefs who think it's ok to sacrifise some people for the greater good.
When you willingly sacrifise some peopel because you think the world will become a better place or because you want revenge on someone else then it's not a good deed, it's just genocide no matter what.

Now if there had only been the Destroy option, and no other possible options save for Refuse, then it's very different, everyone is already doomed and you have to save who you can, but picking genocide when there are viable alternatives that will save everyone, is genocide since it's very much deliberate.

you're either a very sick individual or you are very uneducated. I've studied the Holocaust for 10 years and you sir are the biggest hypocrite here. If anything, you just literally tried to "rationalize" Hitler's actions. News Flash: Hitler's goal was Genocide, regardless of how he "felt" about it or what his "policies" were. He wanted them EXTERMINATED. His goal was the complete annihilation of the Jews. Lol to say anything less is a contrived lie. I could not give a damn about if he thought he was doing good for the world. The man was a lunatic.

By the way, Shepard never woke up and started directing everyone to kill all Geth and that it was for the betterment of the galaxy. No, he arrived at a point where he could end a threat that's been manipulating and terrorizing the galaxy for millions upon millions of years. And upon arriving at that point, he was told that destroying the Reapers would effect anything derived from Reaper tech. That sucks....but it don't make it genocide.

That not a case that it genocide or not. The just a case that he was a person at a time of no conflict did those horrible acts.
The case is different with Shepard but it does not make it any less of a genocide...It just make Shepard not a bad person for doing it because he /she had no choice.

Genocide is not defined as a horrid act of killing an ethic group that is done by the persons or group doing it own accord with nothing forcing it to do it...

It's ...http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/genocide
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.

you literally pulled out a definition that proves my point and discarded yours in its first sentence....

Key word in that definition is "systematic". Meaning : Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.


What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION.

what Hitler did, was absolutely systematic and genocide.

Hitler never had capabilities to destroy entire nation, although he tried very hard.
How can that be systematic, when you destroyed entire race at once? You can't destroy more geth, to set this as systematic, there is no geth anymore.
And this goes for reapers also.

"Hitler never had capabilities to destroy entire nation, although he tried very hard."
Of course he did. Itjust his goal was not to kill off nations. He was after spacific races.

"What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION."

The weapon effected all syntheics.

[Iconoclaste]

LucasShark wrote...

- There are a group of sentient beings
- they are alive before destroy
- They are all dead after destroy because of their arbitrary desegnation

Sounds like genocide to me.

You just don't happen to see the details of this "death", but you can choose to make up anything that suits you. Do you really believe everything "synthetic" was "destroyed" by the red space-magic? Then why did the weapons in the soldiers' hands did not explode? Why did the whole fleet running on "Reaper-derived tech" did not stop "functioning" after the Destroy wave? Why apply the "Destroy" logic to parts we don't see, while we are clearly shown differently?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

The Reapers died, just as Catalyst stated. Therefore, all synthetic life died, as Catalyst also stated. It doesn't matter whether their bodies remained or not, those are now only corpses. What made synthetic life alive was their mind, which must've been the target since as you said the shells remained. Again, if Destroy fits someone, they can do it. I'm just stating there's a downside to it as well. Same can go for any ending or even ingame choice.

Wrong in the first sentence : the Catalyst never said "synthetics will die", he said "will be destroyed". By subtly replacing words, you are upgrading the "synthetics" to the state of "living beings". The Catalyst makes a clear distinction between the two, explaining the Reapers motivation to "protect organics" against their eradication by "synthetics". You can believe what you want, but I go with what the game is telling me : no "living being" has constant doubts about his own "existence" or "living state", where synthetics simply have to ask the "living" to input this "knowledge" in their circuitry.

The game also refers to it as synthetic life. Also, Legion states that organics have more doubts than synthetics do about their existance, hence religions and philosophy.

[Maxster_]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Yeah, not the first time I've seen someone attempt to use a semantic loophole to justify one of Mac and Caseys horrific solutions. Listen, if you choose to roleplay a Shep that makes the conscious choice to sacrifice the Geth, be absolutely sure that heshe is committing genocide. Why? Because it's genocide.

Exactly.
There is no justification for genocide. Even it is necessary(reapers, geth - hardly, debatable), it is still a genocide. germans justified genocide of russians, turks justified genocide of armenians, and a lot lot more throughout humans history.

[Mcfly616]

Maxster_ wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The thing your missing here is the full equation. The act of genocide was done becasue of the extreme events around Shepard. The only time  you can  say the choice is the will of the person doing it is when the choice is choosen in an event not forcing it. If you had no reason to and did it for some political /social reason, then the person is at full fault.

This a choise or everyone dies event.

But it was a choice because the Catalyst gave you other options. I'm not saying nobody should choose Destroy, but they must accept that genocide is a result of that choice.

that's not genocide. And there is nothing "systematic" or "methodical" about shooting the tube. That's like saying a guy that chooses to save an entire train of people whilst sacrificing his 2 yr old in the wreck, is a "murderer". Well, view it however you like but I dont think he set out that day to Kill his son....I think an unforeseen set of circumstances led to that point where the man was met with a choice he had to make, and he made a decision for the greater good. I wouldn't label him a murderer. Just as I don't label Destroy genocide.

Genocide is not inherit with how you do it. It only a defind as an act the cause death to a large group or ethiciity. It matters not if you did not kill the directly.

Even dictators are charged with genocide when they themselves did not kill the group of people directly.

Yes, exactly, and their goals didn't even have to be to kill a group. Hitler didn't have the jews killed just for the sake of killing jews, he thoguht he was making the world better and removing differences and causes for conflict. Which is still Genocide even if the killing itself wasn't the goal of his policies, just a sideeffect of his goals to create a better world.
That's how such thigns happen, people with strong beliefs who think it's ok to sacrifise some people for the greater good.
When you willingly sacrifise some peopel because you think the world will become a better place or because you want revenge on someone else then it's not a good deed, it's just genocide no matter what.

Now if there had only been the Destroy option, and no other possible options save for Refuse, then it's very different, everyone is already doomed and you have to save who you can, but picking genocide when there are viable alternatives that will save everyone, is genocide since it's very much deliberate.

you're either a very sick individual or you are very uneducated. I've studied the Holocaust for 10 years and you sir are the biggest hypocrite here. If anything, you just literally tried to "rationalize" Hitler's actions. News Flash: Hitler's goal was Genocide, regardless of how he "felt" about it or what his "policies" were. He wanted them EXTERMINATED. His goal was the complete annihilation of the Jews. Lol to say anything less is a contrived lie. I could not give a damn about if he thought he was doing good for the world. The man was a lunatic.

By the way, Shepard never woke up and started directing everyone to kill all Geth and that it was for the betterment of the galaxy. No, he arrived at a point where he could end a threat that's been manipulating and terrorizing the galaxy for millions upon millions of years. And upon arriving at that point, he was told that destroying the Reapers would effect anything derived from Reaper tech. That sucks....but it don't make it genocide.

That not a case that it genocide or not. The just a case that he was a person at a time of no conflict did those horrible acts.
The case is different with Shepard but it does not make it any less of a genocide...It just make Shepard not a bad person for doing it because he /she had no choice.

Genocide is not defined as a horrid act of killing an ethic group that is done by the persons or group doing it own accord with nothing forcing it to do it...

It's ...http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/genocide
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.

you literally pulled out a definition that proves my point and discarded yours in its first sentence....

Key word in that definition is "systematic". Meaning : Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.


What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION.

what Hitler did, was absolutely systematic and genocide.

Hitler never had capabilities to destroy entire nation, although he tried very hard.
How can that be systematic, when you destroyed entire race at once? You can't destroy more geth, to set this as systematic, there is no geth anymore.
And this goes for reapers also.

so....because 'you' think he didnt have the capability to do so, means it 'wasn't' systematic, methodical, and all part of his plan in the way in which it was carried out? Well, I'm not sure how to put it politely, but that's "incorrect."

I'll simply reference the definition again, key word this time is "attempted"

Modifié par Mcfly616, 08 octobre 2012 - 07:54 .

[LucasShark]

Iconoclaste wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

- There are a group of sentient beings
- they are alive before destroy
- They are all dead after destroy because of their arbitrary desegnation

Sounds like genocide to me.

You just don't happen to see the details of this "death", but you can choose to make up anything that suits you. Do you really believe everything "synthetic" was "destroyed" by the red space-magic? Then why did the weapons in the soldiers' hands did not explode? Why did the whole fleet running on "Reaper-derived tech" did not stop "functioning" after the Destroy wave? Why apply the "Destroy" logic to parts we don't see, while we are clearly shown differently?

Because of the power of absolutely tripe writing.  Same reason we get a magical green glowing universe and the Shepard demigod.

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

The Reapers died, just as Catalyst stated. Therefore, all synthetic life died, as Catalyst also stated. It doesn't matter whether their bodies remained or not, those are now only corpses. What made synthetic life alive was their mind, which must've been the target since as you said the shells remained. Again, if Destroy fits someone, they can do it. I'm just stating there's a downside to it as well. Same can go for any ending or even ingame choice.

Wrong in the first sentence : the Catalyst never said "synthetics will die", he said "will be destroyed". By subtly replacing words, you are upgrading the "synthetics" to the state of "living beings". The Catalyst makes a clear distinction between the two, explaining the Reapers motivation to "protect organics" against their eradication by "synthetics". You can believe what you want, but I go with what the game is telling me : no "living being" has constant doubts about his own "existence" or "living state", where synthetics simply have to ask the "living" to input this "knowledge" in their circuitry.

You do realise the catalyst programing was to perserve all life and it perserved synthetics under the defiantion of life.

[NasChoka]

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

This! Saying they are not alive is just some kind of racism.

step 1 you say they are only stupid machines and their life is  worth less than the life of a human/asari...
step 2 you betray and kill them all
how do call it if not genocide? if you are tough 'the end justifies the means'- kind of guys ...then why don't you admit it? 

how can the geth be rebuild in they are DEAD? Is there a secret backup file the beam does not hit? Does that mean the reapers can be rebuild too?

maybe you can build new geth like you could clone a human but it's not the same person/geth

[Maxster_]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]shodiswe wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]LDS Darth Revan wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
The thing your missing here is the full equation. The act of genocide was done becasue of the extreme events around Shepard. The only time  you can  say the choice is the will of the person doing it is when the choice is choosen in an event not forcing it. If you had no reason to and did it for some political /social reason, then the person is at full fault.

This a choise or everyone dies event.

[/quote]
But it was a choice because the Catalyst gave you other options. I'm not saying nobody should choose Destroy, but they must accept that genocide is a result of that choice.
[/quote] that's not genocide. And there is nothing "systematic" or "methodical" about shooting the tube. That's like saying a guy that chooses to save an entire train of people whilst sacrificing his 2 yr old in the wreck, is a "murderer". Well, view it however you like but I dont think he set out that day to Kill his son....I think an unforeseen set of circumstances led to that point where the man was met with a choice he had to make, and he made a decision for the greater good. I wouldn't label him a murderer. Just as I don't label Destroy genocide. [/quote]
Genocide is not inherit with how you do it. It only a defind as an act the cause death to a large group or ethiciity. It matters not if you did not kill the directly.

Even dictators are charged with genocide when they themselves did not kill the group of people directly.

[/quote]

Yes, exactly, and their goals didn't even have to be to kill a group. Hitler didn't have the jews killed just for the sake of killing jews, he thoguht he was making the world better and removing differences and causes for conflict. Which is still Genocide even if the killing itself wasn't the goal of his policies, just a sideeffect of his goals to create a better world.
That's how such thigns happen, people with strong beliefs who think it's ok to sacrifise some people for the greater good.
When you willingly sacrifise some peopel because you think the world will become a better place or because you want revenge on someone else then it's not a good deed, it's just genocide no matter what.

Now if there had only been the Destroy option, and no other possible options save for Refuse, then it's very different, everyone is already doomed and you have to save who you can, but picking genocide when there are viable alternatives that will save everyone, is genocide since it's very much deliberate.[/quote] you're either a very sick individual or you are very uneducated. I've studied the Holocaust for 10 years and you sir are the biggest hypocrite here. If anything, you just literally tried to "rationalize" Hitler's actions. News Flash: Hitler's goal was Genocide, regardless of how he "felt" about it or what his "policies" were. He wanted them EXTERMINATED. His goal was the complete annihilation of the Jews. Lol to say anything less is a contrived lie. I could not give a damn about if he thought he was doing good for the world. The man was a lunatic.

By the way, Shepard never woke up and started directing everyone to kill all Geth and that it was for the betterment of the galaxy. No, he arrived at a point where he could end a threat that's been manipulating and terrorizing the galaxy for millions upon millions of years. And upon arriving at that point, he was told that destroying the Reapers would effect anything derived from Reaper tech. That sucks....but it don't make it genocide.[/quote]
That not a case that it genocide or not. The just a case that he was a person at a time of no conflict did those horrible acts.
The case is different with Shepard but it does not make it any less of a genocide...It just make Shepard not a bad person for doing it because he /she had no choice.

Genocide is not defined as a horrid act of killing an ethic group that is done by the persons or group doing it own accord with nothing forcing it to do it...

It's ...http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/genocide
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.[/quote] you literally pulled out a definition that proves my point and discarded yours in its first sentence....

Key word in that definition is "systematic". Meaning : Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.


What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION.

what Hitler did, was absolutely systematic and genocide.

[/quote]
Hitler never had capabilities to destroy entire nation, although he tried very hard.
How can that be systematic, when you destroyed entire race at once? You can't destroy more geth, to set this as systematic, there is no geth anymore.
And this goes for reapers also.
[/quote]
"Hitler never had capabilities to destroy entire nation, although he tried very hard."
Of course he did. Itjust his goal was not to kill off nations. He was after spacific races.

"What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION."

The weapon effected all syntheics.

[/quote]
[quote]Of course he did. Itjust his goal was not to kill off nations. He was after spacific races.[/quote]
He, and his supportes, defined entire nations as lesser races.

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

- There are a group of sentient beings
- they are alive before destroy
- They are all dead after destroy because of their arbitrary desegnation

Sounds like genocide to me.

You just don't happen to see the details of this "death", but you can choose to make up anything that suits you. Do you really believe everything "synthetic" was "destroyed" by the red space-magic? Then why did the weapons in the soldiers' hands did not explode? Why did the whole fleet running on "Reaper-derived tech" did not stop "functioning" after the Destroy wave? Why apply the "Destroy" logic to parts we don't see, while we are clearly shown differently?

The ship did stop working...They were just repaired after.

[Iconoclaste]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

The game also refers to it as synthetic life. Also, Legion states that organics have more doubts than synthetics do about their existance, hence religions and philosophy.

There is a difference between doubting about life"s origin, and doubting about being alive! The Synthetics clearly know about their origins, but doubt "being alive" and that's not just a slight detail in the picture.