1304 réponses à ce sujet

[Roobz82]

Yate wrote...

I've seen this view expressed in various places, and I wanted to set the record straight.

The Destroy ending is not genocide. The geth are not living things. They are machines that can be rebuilt. It's said as much by the catalyst.

If you sold Legion to Cerberus, a perfect copy of it is made by the geth. 'Death' is not the same for synthetics as it is for organics.

Even if you want to argue the geth are alive and have souls (they do not) their 'lives' are not the same as organic lives. If you delete a few of Legion's programs, it's central intelligence is not destroyed. It is a hivemind. Same is true for EDI, who uses the first-person only because it was designed to interface with humans. 'Death' for them is not permanent or absolute.

Destroy is not genocide. If the relays can be rebuilt, so can the geth.

I just want to point out to people that a soul is not essential.  As an atheist I do not believe I have a "soul"  Your Religiously eccentric worldview is tainting your understanding.  Only one other person in Mass effect believed in "God"- Ashley Williams.  The mythology of the Asaris was ground into the dust.  Furthermore the catalyst has never been a reliable source of information.  Its benevolence is disproved by its existence- it is as benign as a nuclear bomb.

Edit- teeth gnashing caused typo...

Modifié par Roobz82, 08 octobre 2012 - 07:54 .

[Maxster_]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The thing your missing here is the full equation. The act of genocide was done becasue of the extreme events around Shepard. The only time  you can  say the choice is the will of the person doing it is when the choice is choosen in an event not forcing it. If you had no reason to and did it for some political /social reason, then the person is at full fault.

This a choise or everyone dies event.

But it was a choice because the Catalyst gave you other options. I'm not saying nobody should choose Destroy, but they must accept that genocide is a result of that choice.

that's not genocide. And there is nothing "systematic" or "methodical" about shooting the tube. That's like saying a guy that chooses to save an entire train of people whilst sacrificing his 2 yr old in the wreck, is a "murderer". Well, view it however you like but I dont think he set out that day to Kill his son....I think an unforeseen set of circumstances led to that point where the man was met with a choice he had to make, and he made a decision for the greater good. I wouldn't label him a murderer. Just as I don't label Destroy genocide.

Genocide is not inherit with how you do it. It only a defind as an act the cause death to a large group or ethiciity. It matters not if you did not kill the directly.

Even dictators are charged with genocide when they themselves did not kill the group of people directly.

Yes, exactly, and their goals didn't even have to be to kill a group. Hitler didn't have the jews killed just for the sake of killing jews, he thoguht he was making the world better and removing differences and causes for conflict. Which is still Genocide even if the killing itself wasn't the goal of his policies, just a sideeffect of his goals to create a better world.
That's how such thigns happen, people with strong beliefs who think it's ok to sacrifise some people for the greater good.
When you willingly sacrifise some peopel because you think the world will become a better place or because you want revenge on someone else then it's not a good deed, it's just genocide no matter what.

Now if there had only been the Destroy option, and no other possible options save for Refuse, then it's very different, everyone is already doomed and you have to save who you can, but picking genocide when there are viable alternatives that will save everyone, is genocide since it's very much deliberate.

you're either a very sick individual or you are very uneducated. I've studied the Holocaust for 10 years and you sir are the biggest hypocrite here. If anything, you just literally tried to "rationalize" Hitler's actions. News Flash: Hitler's goal was Genocide, regardless of how he "felt" about it or what his "policies" were. He wanted them EXTERMINATED. His goal was the complete annihilation of the Jews. Lol to say anything less is a contrived lie. I could not give a damn about if he thought he was doing good for the world. The man was a lunatic.

By the way, Shepard never woke up and started directing everyone to kill all Geth and that it was for the betterment of the galaxy. No, he arrived at a point where he could end a threat that's been manipulating and terrorizing the galaxy for millions upon millions of years. And upon arriving at that point, he was told that destroying the Reapers would effect anything derived from Reaper tech. That sucks....but it don't make it genocide.

That not a case that it genocide or not. The just a case that he was a person at a time of no conflict did those horrible acts.
The case is different with Shepard but it does not make it any less of a genocide...It just make Shepard not a bad person for doing it because he /she had no choice.

Genocide is not defined as a horrid act of killing an ethic group that is done by the persons or group doing it own accord with nothing forcing it to do it...

It's ...http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/genocide
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.

you literally pulled out a definition that proves my point and discarded yours in its first sentence....

Key word in that definition is "systematic". Meaning : Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.


What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION.

what Hitler did, was absolutely systematic and genocide.

Hitler never had capabilities to destroy entire nation, although he tried very hard.
How can that be systematic, when you destroyed entire race at once? You can't destroy more geth, to set this as systematic, there is no geth anymore.
And this goes for reapers also.

so....because 'you' think he didnt have the capability to do so, means it 'wasn't' systematic, methodical, and all part of his plan in the way in which it was carried out? Well, I'm not sure how to put it politely, but that's "incorrect."

No, you just modified what i said, or just don't understand.
I meant, that systematic is not required, to define some actions as genocide. If Hitler could destroy the entire Soviet Union' people with one button, it is automatically becomes not genocide?
You just said that. It was your appeal to definition.

Modifié par Maxster_, 08 octobre 2012 - 07:55 .

[dreman9999]

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]shodiswe wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]LDS Darth Revan wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
The thing your missing here is the full equation. The act of genocide was done becasue of the extreme events around Shepard. The only time  you can  say the choice is the will of the person doing it is when the choice is choosen in an event not forcing it. If you had no reason to and did it for some political /social reason, then the person is at full fault.

This a choise or everyone dies event.

[/quote]
But it was a choice because the Catalyst gave you other options. I'm not saying nobody should choose Destroy, but they must accept that genocide is a result of that choice.
[/quote] that's not genocide. And there is nothing "systematic" or "methodical" about shooting the tube. That's like saying a guy that chooses to save an entire train of people whilst sacrificing his 2 yr old in the wreck, is a "murderer". Well, view it however you like but I dont think he set out that day to Kill his son....I think an unforeseen set of circumstances led to that point where the man was met with a choice he had to make, and he made a decision for the greater good. I wouldn't label him a murderer. Just as I don't label Destroy genocide. [/quote]
Genocide is not inherit with how you do it. It only a defind as an act the cause death to a large group or ethiciity. It matters not if you did not kill the directly.

Even dictators are charged with genocide when they themselves did not kill the group of people directly.

[/quote]

Yes, exactly, and their goals didn't even have to be to kill a group. Hitler didn't have the jews killed just for the sake of killing jews, he thoguht he was making the world better and removing differences and causes for conflict. Which is still Genocide even if the killing itself wasn't the goal of his policies, just a sideeffect of his goals to create a better world.
That's how such thigns happen, people with strong beliefs who think it's ok to sacrifise some people for the greater good.
When you willingly sacrifise some peopel because you think the world will become a better place or because you want revenge on someone else then it's not a good deed, it's just genocide no matter what.

Now if there had only been the Destroy option, and no other possible options save for Refuse, then it's very different, everyone is already doomed and you have to save who you can, but picking genocide when there are viable alternatives that will save everyone, is genocide since it's very much deliberate.[/quote] you're either a very sick individual or you are very uneducated. I've studied the Holocaust for 10 years and you sir are the biggest hypocrite here. If anything, you just literally tried to "rationalize" Hitler's actions. News Flash: Hitler's goal was Genocide, regardless of how he "felt" about it or what his "policies" were. He wanted them EXTERMINATED. His goal was the complete annihilation of the Jews. Lol to say anything less is a contrived lie. I could not give a damn about if he thought he was doing good for the world. The man was a lunatic.

By the way, Shepard never woke up and started directing everyone to kill all Geth and that it was for the betterment of the galaxy. No, he arrived at a point where he could end a threat that's been manipulating and terrorizing the galaxy for millions upon millions of years. And upon arriving at that point, he was told that destroying the Reapers would effect anything derived from Reaper tech. That sucks....but it don't make it genocide.[/quote]
That not a case that it genocide or not. The just a case that he was a person at a time of no conflict did those horrible acts.
The case is different with Shepard but it does not make it any less of a genocide...It just make Shepard not a bad person for doing it because he /she had no choice.

Genocide is not defined as a horrid act of killing an ethic group that is done by the persons or group doing it own accord with nothing forcing it to do it...

It's ...http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/genocide
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.[/quote] you literally pulled out a definition that proves my point and discarded yours in its first sentence....

Key word in that definition is "systematic". Meaning : Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.


What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION.

what Hitler did, was absolutely systematic and genocide.

[/quote]
Hitler never had capabilities to destroy entire nation, although he tried very hard.
How can that be systematic, when you destroyed entire race at once? You can't destroy more geth, to set this as systematic, there is no geth anymore.
And this goes for reapers also.
[/quote]
"Hitler never had capabilities to destroy entire nation, although he tried very hard."
Of course he did. Itjust his goal was not to kill off nations. He was after spacific races.

"What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION."

The weapon effected all syntheics.

[/quote]
[quote]Of course he did. Itjust his goal was not to kill off nations. He was after spacific races.[/quote]
He, and his supportes, defined entire nations as lesser races.
[/quote]And he went after the jewish, guysys, gays, blacks ,and cripples first. He did not try killing of nations yet.

[Roobz82]

Tell that to Austria and Poland.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

The game also refers to it as synthetic life. Also, Legion states that organics have more doubts than synthetics do about their existance, hence religions and philosophy.

There is a difference between doubting about life"s origin, and doubting about being alive! The Synthetics clearly know about their origins, but doubt "being alive" and that's not just a slight detail in the picture.

EDI doesn't doubt she is alive. After a while, the Geth stopped doubting and believe they're alive.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Can we stop talking about Hitler.

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

The game also refers to it as synthetic life. Also, Legion states that organics have more doubts than synthetics do about their existance, hence religions and philosophy.

There is a difference between doubting about life"s origin, and doubting about being alive! The Synthetics clearly know about their origins, but doubt "being alive" and that's not just a slight detail in the picture.

What self aware synthetic in ME ever stated any doubt they were alive?

Hell, Legion nearly kills himself just to try and prove to me he is alive. Only organics state any doubt about synthetics being alive...Not synthetics themselves.

[Iconoclaste]

NasChoka wrote...

This! Saying they are not alive is just some kind of racism.

step 1 you say they are only stupid machines and their life is  worth less than the life of a human/asari...
step 2 you betray and kill them all
how do call it if not genocide? if you are tough 'the end justifies the means'- kind of guys ...then why don't you admit it? 

how can the geth be rebuild in they are DEAD? Is there a secret backup file the beam does not hit? Does that mean the reapers can be rebuild too?

maybe you can build new geth like you could clone a human but it's not the same person/geth

Shepard was dead at the beginning of ME2, yet he was "revived" by Cerberus. What makes you think this would be impossible to do with synthetics?

[dreman9999]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

The game also refers to it as synthetic life. Also, Legion states that organics have more doubts than synthetics do about their existance, hence religions and philosophy.

There is a difference between doubting about life"s origin, and doubting about being alive! The Synthetics clearly know about their origins, but doubt "being alive" and that's not just a slight detail in the picture.

EDI doesn't doubt she is alive. After a while, the Geth stopped doubting and believe they're alive.

The geth never doubted they were alive.

[Maxster_]

dreman9999 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

He, and his supportes, defined entire nations as lesser races.

And he went after the jewish, guysys, gays, blacks ,and cripples first. He did not try killing of nations yet.

Sure, that's why defined slavs as the lesser and inferior race. "Mongolic horde", "animals", yeah.

[Mcfly616]

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]shodiswe wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]LDS Darth Revan wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
The thing your missing here is the full equation. The act of genocide was done becasue of the extreme events around Shepard. The only time  you can  say the choice is the will of the person doing it is when the choice is choosen in an event not forcing it. If you had no reason to and did it for some political /social reason, then the person is at full fault.

This a choise or everyone dies event.

[/quote]
But it was a choice because the Catalyst gave you other options. I'm not saying nobody should choose Destroy, but they must accept that genocide is a result of that choice.
[/quote] that's not genocide. And there is nothing "systematic" or "methodical" about shooting the tube. That's like saying a guy that chooses to save an entire train of people whilst sacrificing his 2 yr old in the wreck, is a "murderer". Well, view it however you like but I dont think he set out that day to Kill his son....I think an unforeseen set of circumstances led to that point where the man was met with a choice he had to make, and he made a decision for the greater good. I wouldn't label him a murderer. Just as I don't label Destroy genocide. [/quote]
Genocide is not inherit with how you do it. It only a defind as an act the cause death to a large group or ethiciity. It matters not if you did not kill the directly.

Even dictators are charged with genocide when they themselves did not kill the group of people directly.

[/quote]

Yes, exactly, and their goals didn't even have to be to kill a group. Hitler didn't have the jews killed just for the sake of killing jews, he thoguht he was making the world better and removing differences and causes for conflict. Which is still Genocide even if the killing itself wasn't the goal of his policies, just a sideeffect of his goals to create a better world.
That's how such thigns happen, people with strong beliefs who think it's ok to sacrifise some people for the greater good.
When you willingly sacrifise some peopel because you think the world will become a better place or because you want revenge on someone else then it's not a good deed, it's just genocide no matter what.

Now if there had only been the Destroy option, and no other possible options save for Refuse, then it's very different, everyone is already doomed and you have to save who you can, but picking genocide when there are viable alternatives that will save everyone, is genocide since it's very much deliberate.[/quote] you're either a very sick individual or you are very uneducated. I've studied the Holocaust for 10 years and you sir are the biggest hypocrite here. If anything, you just literally tried to "rationalize" Hitler's actions. News Flash: Hitler's goal was Genocide, regardless of how he "felt" about it or what his "policies" were. He wanted them EXTERMINATED. His goal was the complete annihilation of the Jews. Lol to say anything less is a contrived lie. I could not give a damn about if he thought he was doing good for the world. The man was a lunatic.

By the way, Shepard never woke up and started directing everyone to kill all Geth and that it was for the betterment of the galaxy. No, he arrived at a point where he could end a threat that's been manipulating and terrorizing the galaxy for millions upon millions of years. And upon arriving at that point, he was told that destroying the Reapers would effect anything derived from Reaper tech. That sucks....but it don't make it genocide.[/quote]
That not a case that it genocide or not. The just a case that he was a person at a time of no conflict did those horrible acts.
The case is different with Shepard but it does not make it any less of a genocide...It just make Shepard not a bad person for doing it because he /she had no choice.

Genocide is not defined as a horrid act of killing an ethic group that is done by the persons or group doing it own accord with nothing forcing it to do it...

It's ...http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/genocide
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.[/quote] you literally pulled out a definition that proves my point and discarded yours in its first sentence....

Key word in that definition is "systematic". Meaning : Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.


What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION.

what Hitler did, was absolutely systematic and genocide.

[/quote]
Hitler never had capabilities to destroy entire nation, although he tried very hard.
How can that be systematic, when you destroyed entire race at once? You can't destroy more geth, to set this as systematic, there is no geth anymore.
And this goes for reapers also.
[/quote] so....because 'you' think he didnt have the capability to do so, means it 'wasn't' systematic, methodical, and all part of his plan in the way in which it was carried out? Well, I'm not sure how to put it politely, but that's "incorrect."[/quote]
No, you just modified what i said, or just don't understand.
I meant, that systematic is not required, to define some actions as genocide. If Hitler could destroy the entire Soviet Union' people with one button, it is automatically becomes not genocide?
You just said that. It was your appeal to definition.

[/quote] haha yeah....no, I didn't modify anything. That is precisely what you said. You're doing a fine job of twisting my words though. Actually I'm not even sure that's what you're doing. It's more like you're just making up whatever you want to believe and then blurting it out lol.

[Obadiah]

@Maxster_
We live in a world of weapons of mass destruction, the use of which have the potential of wiping out distinct ethnic groups completely. If one believes that there can be a justification for the use of WMDs, even defensively against an aggressor using WMDs (a retaliatory nuclear strike), then one is accepting a justification for genocide (as the Destroy=Genocide folks have defined it).

@dreman9999
@Mcfly616
@Maxster_
The quote pyramids are not useful.

Modifié par Obadiah, 08 octobre 2012 - 08:04 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Iconoclaste wrote...

NasChoka wrote...

This! Saying they are not alive is just some kind of racism.

step 1 you say they are only stupid machines and their life is  worth less than the life of a human/asari...
step 2 you betray and kill them all
how do call it if not genocide? if you are tough 'the end justifies the means'- kind of guys ...then why don't you admit it? 

how can the geth be rebuild in they are DEAD? Is there a secret backup file the beam does not hit? Does that mean the reapers can be rebuild too?

maybe you can build new geth like you could clone a human but it's not the same person/geth

Shepard was dead at the beginning of ME2, yet he was "revived" by Cerberus. What makes you think this would be impossible to do with synthetics?

Shepard's brain was intact(wear you helmets kids). The Geth Concensus, on the other hand, was "destroyed" by the Crucible.

[Maxster_]

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]shodiswe wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[quote]Mcfly616 wrote...

[quote]LDS Darth Revan wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...
The thing your missing here is the full equation. The act of genocide was done becasue of the extreme events around Shepard. The only time  you can  say the choice is the will of the person doing it is when the choice is choosen in an event not forcing it. If you had no reason to and did it for some political /social reason, then the person is at full fault.

This a choise or everyone dies event.

[/quote]
But it was a choice because the Catalyst gave you other options. I'm not saying nobody should choose Destroy, but they must accept that genocide is a result of that choice.
[/quote] that's not genocide. And there is nothing "systematic" or "methodical" about shooting the tube. That's like saying a guy that chooses to save an entire train of people whilst sacrificing his 2 yr old in the wreck, is a "murderer". Well, view it however you like but I dont think he set out that day to Kill his son....I think an unforeseen set of circumstances led to that point where the man was met with a choice he had to make, and he made a decision for the greater good. I wouldn't label him a murderer. Just as I don't label Destroy genocide. [/quote]
Genocide is not inherit with how you do it. It only a defind as an act the cause death to a large group or ethiciity. It matters not if you did not kill the directly.

Even dictators are charged with genocide when they themselves did not kill the group of people directly.

[/quote]

Yes, exactly, and their goals didn't even have to be to kill a group. Hitler didn't have the jews killed just for the sake of killing jews, he thoguht he was making the world better and removing differences and causes for conflict. Which is still Genocide even if the killing itself wasn't the goal of his policies, just a sideeffect of his goals to create a better world.
That's how such thigns happen, people with strong beliefs who think it's ok to sacrifise some people for the greater good.
When you willingly sacrifise some peopel because you think the world will become a better place or because you want revenge on someone else then it's not a good deed, it's just genocide no matter what.

Now if there had only been the Destroy option, and no other possible options save for Refuse, then it's very different, everyone is already doomed and you have to save who you can, but picking genocide when there are viable alternatives that will save everyone, is genocide since it's very much deliberate.[/quote] you're either a very sick individual or you are very uneducated. I've studied the Holocaust for 10 years and you sir are the biggest hypocrite here. If anything, you just literally tried to "rationalize" Hitler's actions. News Flash: Hitler's goal was Genocide, regardless of how he "felt" about it or what his "policies" were. He wanted them EXTERMINATED. His goal was the complete annihilation of the Jews. Lol to say anything less is a contrived lie. I could not give a damn about if he thought he was doing good for the world. The man was a lunatic.

By the way, Shepard never woke up and started directing everyone to kill all Geth and that it was for the betterment of the galaxy. No, he arrived at a point where he could end a threat that's been manipulating and terrorizing the galaxy for millions upon millions of years. And upon arriving at that point, he was told that destroying the Reapers would effect anything derived from Reaper tech. That sucks....but it don't make it genocide.[/quote]
That not a case that it genocide or not. The just a case that he was a person at a time of no conflict did those horrible acts.
The case is different with Shepard but it does not make it any less of a genocide...It just make Shepard not a bad person for doing it because he /she had no choice.

Genocide is not defined as a horrid act of killing an ethic group that is done by the persons or group doing it own accord with nothing forcing it to do it...

It's ...http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/genocide
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.[/quote] you literally pulled out a definition that proves my point and discarded yours in its first sentence....

Key word in that definition is "systematic". Meaning : Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.


What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION.

what Hitler did, was absolutely systematic and genocide.

[/quote]
Hitler never had capabilities to destroy entire nation, although he tried very hard.
How can that be systematic, when you destroyed entire race at once? You can't destroy more geth, to set this as systematic, there is no geth anymore.
And this goes for reapers also.
[/quote] so....because 'you' think he didnt have the capability to do so, means it 'wasn't' systematic, methodical, and all part of his plan in the way in which it was carried out? Well, I'm not sure how to put it politely, but that's "incorrect."[/quote]
No, you just modified what i said, or just don't understand.
I meant, that systematic is not required, to define some actions as genocide. If Hitler could destroy the entire Soviet Union' people with one button, it is automatically becomes not genocide?
You just said that. It was your appeal to definition.

[/quote] haha yeah....no, I didn't modify anything. That is precisely what you said. You're doing a fine job of twisting my words though. Actually I'm not even sure that's what you're doing. It's more like you're just making up whatever you want to believe and then blurting it out lol.[/quote]
Your lies won't do you any good.
You said
[quote]you literally pulled out a definition that proves my point and discarded yours in its first sentence....

Key word in that definition is "systematic". Meaning : Done or acting according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.


What Shepard did, is not systematic or genocide BY DEFINITION.

what Hitler did, was absolutely systematic and genocide. [/quote]
Which is justification of genocide, if it is not systematic.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

The game also refers to it as synthetic life. Also, Legion states that organics have more doubts than synthetics do about their existance, hence religions and philosophy.

There is a difference between doubting about life"s origin, and doubting about being alive! The Synthetics clearly know about their origins, but doubt "being alive" and that's not just a slight detail in the picture.

EDI doesn't doubt she is alive. After a while, the Geth stopped doubting and believe they're alive.

The geth never doubted they were alive.

Good point. They were curious if they had a soul though. I combined those by mistake.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 08 octobre 2012 - 08:04 .

[Maxster_]

Obadiah wrote...

@Maxster_
We live in a world of weapons of mass destruction, the use of which have the potential of wiping out distinct ethnic groups completely. If one believes that there can be a justification for the use of WMDs, even defensively against an aggressor using WMDs (a retaliatory nuclear strike), then one is accepting a justification for genocide (as the Destroy=Genocide folks have defined it).

Yes, you are right. That is another reason(first - mutual destruction), why nukes are not used by anyone.

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

NasChoka wrote...

This! Saying they are not alive is just some kind of racism.

step 1 you say they are only stupid machines and their life is  worth less than the life of a human/asari...
step 2 you betray and kill them all
how do call it if not genocide? if you are tough 'the end justifies the means'- kind of guys ...then why don't you admit it? 

how can the geth be rebuild in they are DEAD? Is there a secret backup file the beam does not hit? Does that mean the reapers can be rebuild too?

maybe you can build new geth like you could clone a human but it's not the same person/geth

Shepard was dead at the beginning of ME2, yet he was "revived" by Cerberus. What makes you think this would be impossible to do with synthetics?

Becauseyou missing the consept that form does not equal self and persona.

We as organic normally say that the body and persona as intradependent.

If the body dies, the persona dies.

But that not the case with synthtics. But do you consider a person with his mind wiped to be the same exact person. Let's say that Shepard is rebuild but ompletly lost his /her memories and neverget them back....Is he/her the sameperson as before?

That's the case with edi and the geth. Sure you can rebuild them but there minds are wiped. If you remake there data to be AI like theywerwe before, they would have new personas. They would be different people.

[dreman9999]

Maxster_ wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@Maxster_
We live in a world of weapons of mass destruction, the use of which have the potential of wiping out distinct ethnic groups completely. If one believes that there can be a justification for the use of WMDs, even defensively against an aggressor using WMDs (a retaliatory nuclear strike), then one is accepting a justification for genocide (as the Destroy=Genocide folks have defined it).

Yes, you are right. That is another reason(first - mutual destruction), why nukes are not used by anyone.

More like the reason why we try to not let people who want to use it that way have them.

Why do you think we fight so hard so certin countries don't have nukes?

[Maxster_]

dreman9999 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@Maxster_
We live in a world of weapons of mass destruction, the use of which have the potential of wiping out distinct ethnic groups completely. If one believes that there can be a justification for the use of WMDs, even defensively against an aggressor using WMDs (a retaliatory nuclear strike), then one is accepting a justification for genocide (as the Destroy=Genocide folks have defined it).

Yes, you are right. That is another reason(first - mutual destruction), why nukes are not used by anyone.

More like the reason why we try to not let people who want to use it that way have them.

Why do you think we fight so hard so certin countries don't have nukes?

Because then you can freely invade them and install puppet goverment? If they have no nukes, i meant.

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...
Becauseyou missing the consept that form does not equal self and persona.

We as organic normally say that the body and persona as intradependent.

If the body dies, the persona dies.

But that not the case with synthtics. But do you consider a person with his mind wiped to be the same exact person. Let's say that Shepard is rebuild but ompletly lost his /her memories and neverget them back....Is he/her the sameperson as before?

That's the case with edi and the geth. Sure you can rebuild them but there minds are wiped. If you remake there data to be AI like theywerwe before, they would have new personas. They would be different people.

You know you are going out the back door when I come up in front, don't you?

Shepard goes through a small "test" in the shuttle en route to Cerberus after the attack on the labs, just to see if his "memories" were ok. That is, presently, not possible. Fiction, fantasy, sci-fi. You know these terms, right? So, he was dead like in "dead", where the "persona" goes away, like you say. How is it possible they revived him, with his memory?

I don't care about your answer, frankly, because you are disconnecting from and reconnecting with the game context with the flow of arguments.

By the way, I expect those discussing about "Hitler" to be aware of the point in discussion called "The Godwin Point". Google this, it's interesting...

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 08 octobre 2012 - 08:18 .

[Maxster_]

Iconoclaste wrote...


By the way, I expect those discussing about "Hitler" to be aware of the point in discussion called "The Godwin Point". Google this, it's interesting...

That was hilarious, thanks.

Well, we can always use another example of genocide, like turks-armenians.

Also

Godwin's law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or
hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with
****s. The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions
covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes
or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, since a
**** comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate, in effect
committing the fallacist's fallacy.
Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to
interpretation, since this would not be a fallacious attack against a
debate opponent.

wikipedia(bad source, i know).

And we are discussing genocide. So no, no Godwin's law.

Modifié par Maxster_, 08 octobre 2012 - 08:22 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Becauseyou missing the consept that form does not equal self and persona.

We as organic normally say that the body and persona as intradependent.

If the body dies, the persona dies.

But that not the case with synthtics. But do you consider a person with his mind wiped to be the same exact person. Let's say that Shepard is rebuild but ompletly lost his /her memories and neverget them back....Is he/her the sameperson as before?

That's the case with edi and the geth. Sure you can rebuild them but there minds are wiped. If you remake there data to be AI like theywerwe before, they would have new personas. They would be different people.

You know you are going out the back door when I come up in front, don't you?

Shepard goes through a small "test" in the shuttle en route to Cerberus after the attack on the labs, just to see if his "memories" were ok. That is, presently, not possible. Fiction, fantasy, sci-fi. You know these terms, right? So, he was dead like in "dead", where the "persona" goes away, like you say. How is it possible they revived him, with his memory?

I don't care about your answer, frankly, because you are disconnecting from and reconnecting with the game context with the flow of arguments.

By the way, I expect those discussing about "Hitler" to be aware of the point in discussion called "The Godwin Point". Google this, it's interesting...

Well, I could bring the soul concept into this, but I'm afraid that'll be debated as well. Let's just say that Shepard's calling in life had yet to be achieved and a higher power granted a second chance to do so.

[Obadiah]

@Maxster_
@dreman9999
It doesn't matter who has them, their use by anyone even with the best of intentions can wipe out thousands of people at once - and hundreds of thousands with the after effects. It can easily wipe out a ethnic group that happens to exist only in the target area - an ethnic group that was in no way the actual target of the weapon.

If Destroy=genocide, so is any use of WMD that does the same to some ethnic group in the blast radius - a danger that always exists. Hence, if one believes there is a justification for the use of WMDs, one necessarily believes there can be some justification for genocide.

Modifié par Obadiah, 08 octobre 2012 - 08:27 .

[Maxster_]

Obadiah wrote...

@Maxster_
@dreman9999
It doesn't matter who has them, their use by anyone even with the best of intentions can wipe out thousands of people at once - and hundreds of thousands with the after effects. It can easily wipe out a ethnic group that happens to exist only in the target area - an ethnic group that was in no way the actual target of the weapon.

Hence, if Destroy=genocide, so is any use of WMD that does the same to some ethnic group in the blast radius - danger that always exists. Hence, if one believes there is a justification for the use of WMDs, one necessarily believes there is a justification for genocide.

Well, that depends on a definitions of WMD. Like Thermobaric weapons.
Yes, for something like this it is obvious, though.