1304 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

Iconoclaste wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If you understood the basic idea that started this "discussion" then we wouldn't have it at all.

You are simply not answering the question, and forcing the issue on "interaction" to try to prove that an AI would "think" even if it is not required to.

Erm? What am I forcing? If you remove the AI's stimuli from the get go then you end up with a simple computer doing nothing.

[Iconoclaste]

Maxster_ wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...


By the way, I expect those discussing about "Hitler" to be aware of the point in discussion called "The Godwin Point". Google this, it's interesting...

That was hilarious, thanks.

Well, we can always use another example of genocide, like turks-armenians.

Also

Godwin's law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or
hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with
****s. The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions
covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes
or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, since a
**** comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate, in effect
committing the fallacist's fallacy.
Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to
interpretation, since this would not be a fallacious attack against a
debate opponent.

wikipedia(bad source, i know).

And we are discussing genocide. So no, no Godwin's law.

I would rather say, to the contrary, that since we are discussing about comparing a video game ending with "mainstays of Nazy Germany such as genocude" that Godwin applies here : the debaters comparing "Destroy ending" in the fiction of Mass Effect to real-world genocide have reached the "Godwin point" : no more argument relevant to the game. While there are many examples of "impossibilities" in the game to support that even humans can be "revived", opponents to this opinion will reach out of the sci-fi realm to the genocide perpetrated by the Nazy Germany. This is just one of the frequent occurences of the "Straw man" argument on these forums.

[Maxster_]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...


By the way, I expect those discussing about "Hitler" to be aware of the point in discussion called "The Godwin Point". Google this, it's interesting...

That was hilarious, thanks.

Well, we can always use another example of genocide, like turks-armenians.

Also

Godwin's law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or
hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with
****s. The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions
covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes
or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, since a
**** comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate, in effect
committing the fallacist's fallacy.
Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to
interpretation, since this would not be a fallacious attack against a
debate opponent.

wikipedia(bad source, i know).

And we are discussing genocide. So no, no Godwin's law.

I would rather say, to the contrary, that since we are discussing about comparing a video game ending with "mainstays of Nazy Germany such as genocude" that Godwin applies here : the debaters comparing "Destroy ending" in the fiction of Mass Effect to real-world genocide have reached the "Godwin point" : no more argument relevant to the game. While there are many examples of "impossibilities" in the game to support that even humans can be "revived", opponents to this opinion will reach out of the sci-fi realm to the genocide perpetrated by the Nazy Germany. This is just one of the frequent occurences of the "Straw man" argument on these forums.

So, you are basically saying, that none of that which have place in real world, like genocide, or physics, or science(scientific method), should ever be considered for an argument in discussion of a fiction?

[KotorEffect3]

Yes I genocided the reapers. No I am not sorry. The Geth's sacrifice will be honored.

[Iconoclaste]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If you understood the basic idea that started this "discussion" then we wouldn't have it at all.

You are simply not answering the question, and forcing the issue on "interaction" to try to prove that an AI would "think" even if it is not required to.

Erm? What am I forcing? If you remove the AI's stimuli from the get go then you end up with a simple computer doing nothing.

Go to sleep, and experience nice dreams.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Iconoclaste wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If you understood the basic idea that started this "discussion" then we wouldn't have it at all.

You are simply not answering the question, and forcing the issue on "interaction" to try to prove that an AI would "think" even if it is not required to.

Erm? What am I forcing? If you remove the AI's stimuli from the get go then you end up with a simple computer doing nothing.

Go to sleep, and experience nice dreams.

Same to you.

[Iconoclaste]

Maxster_ wrote...

( ... )
So, you are basically saying, that none of that which have place in real world, like genocide, or physics, or science(scientific method), should ever be considered for an argument in discussion of a fiction?

This is an interpretation of what I have said I do not agree upon. And this is not what the Godwin "law" is about : the discussion is related to game content, not real world. FTL is still fantasy today, as is reviving people fallen from orbit and lacking oxygen for a long period with no ill effects. One can't simply reach for real-world arguments where the games shows otherwise, and come back to game content when that fits the arguments. If taken as a whole, the story makes this "genocide" purely hypothetical. The need to compare real world genocide to the "Destroy" ending that doesn't even show us the outcomes in detail is unnecessary, and mostly aims at gaining the upper edge of argument by putting opposition in a rather undefendable posture.

[DarthLaxian]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Are atheists robots?

well religious people are more like robots than atheists, as they are "programmed" more, then atheists are (they are "programmed" to go to church, to obey the lord etc.)

so, no, atheists are not robots (neither are believers for that matter)

and yes, IMHO destroy is genocide (because even if you "rebuild" the geth and edi, they would not be the same as before, they would be similar, but not the same!

greetings LAX

[Eterna]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Yes I genocided the reapers. No I am not sorry. The Geth's sacrifice will be honored.

At least call it what it is, Murder. They never chose to Sacrifice themselves. 

Like every other Ship in the fleet, they FTled to the rendevous point, joyful of their victory. Joyful that they now had a chance to prove they could live in this new galaxy free from the Reapers. And then, one by one they died. They had mere seconds to experience victory. Then they felt the cold sting of betrayal and fell silent. Turns out they were wrong to trust the creators. 

You monster. 

[Obadiah]

Maxster_ wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@Maxster_
@dreman9999
It doesn't matter who has them, their use by anyone even with the best of intentions can wipe out thousands of people at once - and hundreds of thousands with the after effects. It can easily wipe out a ethnic group that happens to exist only in the target area - an ethnic group that was in no way the actual target of the weapon.

Hence, if Destroy=genocide, so is any use of WMD that does the same to some ethnic group in the blast radius - danger that always exists. Hence, if one believes there is a justification for the use of WMDs, one necessarily believes there is a justification for genocide.

Well, that depends on a definitions of WMD. Like Thermobaric weapons.
Yes, for something like this it is obvious, though.

I think the question of genocide of the Geth is moot. On low EMS , Destroy and Control wipe out an aweful lot of organics in the blast area. There are probably some distinct organic ethnic groups in those as well that were destroyed.

The question isn't: will a genocide occur? If it does then Shepard will justify it, the same way Shepard justified blowing up the Alpha Relay.

The question is: can Shepard use a WMD?

[Vigilant111]

@Iconoclaste: I think Angry was trying to point out that emotions are what drives human (organic) thinking, it is the way of which the human psyche works... what drives an AIs to think is quite speculative, they may not necessarily need organic emotions to think, but perhaps something equivalent

[KotorEffect3]

Eterna5 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Yes I genocided the reapers. No I am not sorry. The Geth's sacrifice will be honored.

At least call it what it is, Murder. They never chose to Sacrifice themselves. 

Like every other Ship in the fleet, they FTled to the rendevous point, joyful of their victory. Joyful that they now had a chance to prove they could live in this new galaxy free from the Reapers. And then, one by one they died. They had mere seconds to experience victory. Then they felt the cold sting of betrayal and fell silent. Turns out they were wrong to trust the creators. 

You monster. 

Would you rather the reapers stick around?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Vigilant111 wrote...

@Iconoclaste: I think Angry was trying to point out that emotions are what drives human (organic) thinking, it is the way of which the human psyche works... what drives an AIs to think is quite speculative, they may not necessarily need organic emotions to think, but perhaps something equivalent

Yes. Agreed. What that has to do with an isolated AI brain without stimuli beats me. All I said was that progress has been made in AI using emotion-like triggers, because the researchers believed that emotions drive thinking.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 08 octobre 2012 - 08:56 .

[Eterna]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Yes I genocided the reapers. No I am not sorry. The Geth's sacrifice will be honored.

At least call it what it is, Murder. They never chose to Sacrifice themselves. 

Like every other Ship in the fleet, they FTled to the rendevous point, joyful of their victory. Joyful that they now had a chance to prove they could live in this new galaxy free from the Reapers. And then, one by one they died. They had mere seconds to experience victory. Then they felt the cold sting of betrayal and fell silent. Turns out they were wrong to trust the creators. 

You monster. 

Would you rather the reapers stick around?

Yes. There is always another way. 

[Maxster_]

Eterna5 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Yes I genocided the reapers. No I am not sorry. The Geth's sacrifice will be honored.

At least call it what it is, Murder. They never chose to Sacrifice themselves. 

Like every other Ship in the fleet, they FTled to the rendevous point, joyful of their victory. Joyful that they now had a chance to prove they could live in this new galaxy free from the Reapers. And then, one by one they died. They had mere seconds to experience victory. Then they felt the cold sting of betrayal and fell silent. Turns out they were wrong to trust the creators. 

You monster. 

Reapers of course, should be entiriely destroyed. There is no reaper, who wasn't part of their genocidal rampage.
Their destruction is inevitability, unavoidable.
It is still the genocide, but compared to mass forced mutilation... well, mass forced mutilation is much much worse.

[M Hedonist]

Yate wrote...

The geth are not living things. They are machines that can be rebuilt. It's said as much by the catalyst.

Picture this: Eventually cloning will become viable. I fear for the future if people with your mindset become the majority.

[Maxster_]

Obadiah wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@Maxster_
@dreman9999
It doesn't matter who has them, their use by anyone even with the best of intentions can wipe out thousands of people at once - and hundreds of thousands with the after effects. It can easily wipe out a ethnic group that happens to exist only in the target area - an ethnic group that was in no way the actual target of the weapon.

Hence, if Destroy=genocide, so is any use of WMD that does the same to some ethnic group in the blast radius - danger that always exists. Hence, if one believes there is a justification for the use of WMDs, one necessarily believes there is a justification for genocide.

Well, that depends on a definitions of WMD. Like Thermobaric weapons.
Yes, for something like this it is obvious, though.

I think the question of genocide of the Geth is moot. On low EMS , Destroy and Control wipe out an aweful lot of organics in the blast area. There are probably some distinct organic ethnic groups in those as well that were destroyed.

The question isn't: will a genocide occur? If it does then Shepard will justify it, the same way Shepard justified blowing up the Alpha Relay.

The question is: can Shepard use a WMD?

That also why gunners on Earth Alliance dreadnought's are "do not eyeball it".

Modifié par Maxster_, 08 octobre 2012 - 08:58 .

[Obadiah]

Eterna5 wrote...
...
Yes. There is always another way.

Some players only got a Destroy and Refuse option.

[KotorEffect3]

Eterna5 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Yes I genocided the reapers. No I am not sorry. The Geth's sacrifice will be honored.

At least call it what it is, Murder. They never chose to Sacrifice themselves. 

Like every other Ship in the fleet, they FTled to the rendevous point, joyful of their victory. Joyful that they now had a chance to prove they could live in this new galaxy free from the Reapers. And then, one by one they died. They had mere seconds to experience victory. Then they felt the cold sting of betrayal and fell silent. Turns out they were wrong to trust the creators. 

You monster. 

Would you rather the reapers stick around?

Yes. There is always another way. 

So you would rather allow machines whose very creation is an abomination who have commited genocide on a galactic scale over and over again for at least a billion years continue to exist  rather than to sacrifice the geth?

[Iconoclaste]

Sauruz wrote...

Yate wrote...

The geth are not living things. They are machines that can be rebuilt. It's said as much by the catalyst.

Picture this: Eventually cloning will become viable. I fear for the future if people with your mindset become the majority.

If people of this mindset become the majority, then fear not for the future, because cloning will not happen. You have more to worry about the present majority, who doesn't care about pollution and war, and spend the resources in selfishness instead of doing everything they can to help those who really need it. If you think cloning is a good way to help people that already exist, explain it to me please.

[Maxster_]

Obadiah wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
...
Yes. There is always another way.

Some players only got a Destroy and Refuse option.

I got Alt+F4 option. It is way better, believe me

[KotorEffect3]

Maxster_ wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
...
Yes. There is always another way.

Some players only got a Destroy and Refuse option.

I got Alt+F4 option. It is way better, believe me

Not this crap again

[Iconoclaste]

Reality calls. Good night all.

[Little Princess Peach]

Yate wrote...

I've seen this view expressed in various places, and I wanted to set the record straight.

The Destroy ending is not genocide. The geth are not living things. They are machines that can be rebuilt. It's said as much by the catalyst.

If you sold Legion to Cerberus, a perfect copy of it is made by the geth. 'Death' is not the same for synthetics as it is for organics.

Even if you want to argue the geth are alive and have souls (they do not) their 'lives' are not the same as organic lives. If you delete a few of Legion's programs, it's central intelligence is not destroyed. It is a hivemind. Same is true for EDI, who uses the first-person only because it was designed to interface with humans. 'Death' for them is not permanent or absolute.

Destroy is not genocide. If the relays can be rebuilt, so can the geth.

Yate it is Genocide, if the geth and others like them are selfware then they are alive, just because there not organic like us dose not mean they have no heart.
we are machines to don't forget we are a product of nature, we all funtion similar to machines just in diffrent ways.

[Village_Idiot]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

So you would rather allow machines whose very creation is an abomination who have commited genocide on a galactic scale over and over again for at least a billion years continue to exist  rather than to sacrifice the geth?

To be honest, the only viable alternative I see to Destroy would be a Control ending where Shepard immediately sends all the Reapers into the nearest star. Unfortunately, the EC demonstrates this isn't the case.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 08 octobre 2012 - 09:17 .