1304 réponses à ce sujet

[futurepixels]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Destroy is only genocide to the Reapers, but come now is anyone really crying over their death?

I am. That's why I choose Synthesis: everyone, Reapers included, benefit. 

Organic life doesn't benefit at all.

[Melra]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Destroy is only genocide to the Reapers, but come now is anyone really crying over their death?

I am. That's why I choose Synthesis: everyone, Reapers included, benefit. 

No one benefits from such horrendous ending, not even the players.

[GimmeDaGun]

They are just machines with artifical intelligences that can imitate the organics' intellectual and emotional behaviour. This does not make them alive and does not give them a soul. Yes they are self-aware, so they acknowledge their existence: but that's what it is, existence and not life. Only an imitation of life. Call me a racist if you will, I don't care (I don't even consider them being a race).

I would also add that the geth kind of deserve what they get despite their help in the war: in a selfish way they took the reaper code and made it their own. They don't have the moral high ground here. They seeked cooperation with the reapers and they (Legion is not a person but a platform which represents the geth consensus) only care about themselves and their advancement. They are greedy and are going so far with it that they upload the reaper's programming to the consensus. They become reapers basically and think like reapers: calculated and machine like, even if it is peaceful at the moment.

I never trusted them, nor Legion (no matter how convincing it might seem at times), it is just a manipulative machine which has no feelings and real compassion with organics.

Them getting destroyed is not a side effect: everything which has reaper code or programming gets destroyed. It was them who destroyed themselves: they chose their own fate. They had a choice: they chose the reapers instead of their own ways. I don't feel sorry for them.


But to those who think that machines are just as much people as sapient living-thinking-feeling beings, there are the two other ending options.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:11 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

futurepixels wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Regardless of the Geth or not, Destroy is genocide because you are killing the entire Reaper race.

Reapers are synthetics too.

I know, and choosing to wipe them out is genocide.

OP is saying that destroying synthetics is not genocide because they are not alive in the same way that organics are.

And I am disagreeing with them. Synthetics are a different form of life, but life nonetheless.

Synthetics are simulated life, not true organic life.  They should not be considered alive in the same way that organics are alive.

They are sentient, which makes just as alive as organics.As someone put on here earlier, our bodies are just organic machines to keep our mind alive, so how are we different?

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:05 .

[Han Shot First]

dreman9999 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That's a case of doulbe effect. The genocideis a byproduct of it. It still a genocide but you not morally wrong to do it.

That doesn't fit the definition of genocide at all.

Lets pretend for a moment that we are capable of interstellar travel, and that we discover an Earth-like planet that harbors intelligent life. If our first astronaut ambassadors to that planet inadvertently carry Earth-born microbial life that survives the journey, and those microbes end up infecting and killing tens of thousands on that world, have our astronauts committed genocide?

No, they have not. In order to be genocide the spreading of the disease would to be deliberate.

1. That the same thing that happen when the european came to america.

And in cases of accidental infection via trade and the like, it isn't genocide.

Now stories of blankets that had covered smallpox victims being intentionally distributed to natives is another story. That is biological warfare, and genocide.

dreman9999 wrote...

2.The only reason we pickdestory is the intent of killing the reaper dispite who else is killed with them. If you blow up a building full of innocent people to kill one person, it's still murder.

Not really a good anology to the Geth being taken out in the destruction of the Reapers.

The destruction of the Geth is more like bombing a legitimate military target (lets say, a tank) and shrapnel from that explosion happening to kill some farmer who was on his way to the market. The intent wasn't to kill the farmer.

2. Yes it is. Even you example is th esame case. Your still murdered thefarmer.

That meets neither the dictionary or legal definitions of murder. The pilot would never be convicted of a war crime.

The intent was never to kill the farmer, and his death is ultimately accidental.

[Dr_Extrem]

Subject M wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

An insect went extinct in California many years ago by Human intervention because it was devastating crops there.

That's genocide.

The question, though: Was it wrong?

No it was not genocide because genocide (as the law is written today) referes to populations and groups of humans.

you are right .. it was human caused extinction.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:06 .

[Kabooooom]

Synthetics are simulated life, not true organic life. They should not be considered alive in the same way that organics are alive.

The biological definition of "life" is too narrow for the ME universe. That was like, one of the entire points of the Geth-Quarian story arc.

What matters more - being composed of cells, or being conscious?The answer to that question should be pretty clear, I think.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:05 .

[dreman9999]

ReggarBlane wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Here is a question for all of those who maintain that Destroy is genocide:

If Control or Synthesis backfires, and the Reapers one day annihilate all life as they have done for eons, is Shepard guilty of genocide?

No, because Shepard did not trigger it or intend for it to happen. Destroy, on the other hand, is the intentional genocide of the Reapers.

If you blow up a building full of innocent people to kill one person, it's still murdering the other innocent people. 

We need more information:
Why did that person want to kill one person? Was it to save millions?
Why did they blow up a building? Was there no other way?

Whether they wanted to kill those other or had no other choice changes things.

Does it still fit the technical definition of murder? Yes. Could someone convict that person of war crimes? Yes.

Was it wrong? Depends on the answers that we do not have and on personal beliefs.

So what? It still murder. It matter not if the person they were aiming at is a major threat. The act of blowing up a build fill with innocent people to kill him is still murdering those innocent people. This is double effect.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

futurepixels wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Destroy is only genocide to the Reapers, but come now is anyone really crying over their death?

I am. That's why I choose Synthesis: everyone, Reapers included, benefit. 

Organic life doesn't benefit at all.

How so?

[darthnick427]

futurepixels wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Destroy is only genocide to the Reapers, but come now is anyone really crying over their death?

I am. That's why I choose Synthesis: everyone, Reapers included, benefit. 

Organic life doesn't benefit at all.

Exactly.

[Subject M]

futurepixels wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Regardless of the Geth or not, Destroy is genocide because you are killing the entire Reaper race.

Reapers are synthetics too.

I know, and choosing to wipe them out is genocide.

OP is saying that destroying synthetics is not genocide because they are not alive in the same way that organics are.

And I am disagreeing with them. Synthetics are a different form of life, but life nonetheless.

Synthetics are simulated life, not true organic life.  They should not be considered alive in the same way that organics are alive.

They might be more alive, alive in another way, or not alive at all. But if they are not alive, they are definitely not dead in an organic sense or how a stone is"dead stone".

[ObserverStatus]

OblivionDawn wrote...
If it has sentience, it is a living, thinking thing, that's capable of self-preservation.
Destroy is genocide.

Apple's iOS operating system is capable of self-preservation.  If you try to jailbreak your iPhone, Apple might send out its hunter killer malware to permanently disable your device, as is permitted under Apple's terms of service.  Would it be genocide to detonate an EMP device above an Apple store?

[Kabooooom]

This does not make them alive and does not give them a soul.

I'm still waiting for you (or someone) to tell me what a "soul" even is and why the hell you think that even matters at all.

[wantedman dan]

Never mind.

Modifié par wantedman dan, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:09 .

[RiouHotaru]

wantedman dan wrote...

Because the writers wrote the story in such a way that would lead a rational consumer to believe such.

There is no "need" to do such, only a reaction to the given stimuli.

I'm simply being charitable to the relativistic nature of the interpretations here; you cannot say the same.

...A rational consumer?  Are we going with a "No True Scotsman" approach now to this argument?  Because by your logic, I'm not a "rational consumer" because I didn't come to the conclusion of "Destroy = Genocide"

I didn't react to the pre-EC endings with doom and gloom either.  So am I irrational now?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

They are just machines with artifical intelligences that can imitate the organics' intellectual and emotional behaviour. This does not make them alive and does not give them a soul. Yes their self-aware, so they acknowledge their existence: but that's what it is, existence and not life. Only an immitation of life. Call me a racist if you will, I don't care.

I would also add that the geth kind of deserve what they get despite their help in the war: in a selfish way they took the reaper code and made it of their own. They don't have the moral high ground here. They seeked cooperation with the reapers and they (Legion is not a person but a platform which represents the geth consensus) only care about themselves and their advancement. They are greedy and are going so far with it that they upload the reaper's programming to the consensus. They become reapers basically and think like reapers: calculated and machine like, even if it is peaceful at the moment.

I never trusted them, nor Legion (no matter how convincing he might seem at times), it is just a manipulative machine which has no feelings and real compassion with organics.

Them getting destroyed is not a side effect: everything which has reaper code or programming gets destroyed. It was them who destroyed themselves: they chose their own fate. They had a choice: they chose the reapers instead of their own ways. I don't feel sorry for them.

There only other choice was death from the quarians. If anybody was about to be killed and someone offered to help, they'd take it regardless who it is who helps them.

[dreman9999]

Han Shot First wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That's a case of doulbe effect. The genocideis a byproduct of it. It still a genocide but you not morally wrong to do it.

That doesn't fit the definition of genocide at all.

Lets pretend for a moment that we are capable of interstellar travel, and that we discover an Earth-like planet that harbors intelligent life. If our first astronaut ambassadors to that planet inadvertently carry Earth-born microbial life that survives the journey, and those microbes end up infecting and killing tens of thousands on that world, have our astronauts committed genocide?

No, they have not. In order to be genocide the spreading of the disease would to be deliberate.

1. That the same thing that happen when the european came to america.

And in cases of accidental infection via trade and the like, it isn't genocide.

Now stories of blankets that had covered smallpox victims being intentionally distributed to natives is another story. That is biological warfare, and genocide.

dreman9999 wrote...

2.The only reason we pickdestory is the intent of killing the reaper dispite who else is killed with them. If you blow up a building full of innocent people to kill one person, it's still murder.

Not really a good anology to the Geth being taken out in the destruction of the Reapers.

The destruction of the Geth is more like bombing a legitimate military target (lets say, a tank) and shrapnel from that explosion happening to kill some farmer who was on his way to the market. The intent wasn't to kill the farmer.

2. Yes it is. Even you example is th esame case. Your still murdered thefarmer.

That meets neither the dictionary or legal definitions of murder. The pilot would never be convicted of a war crime.

The intent was never to kill the farmer, and his death is ultimately accidental.

You think a person must be convicted or trailed for it to be a murder?

Please, you not getting it. It would bea case he the poloit new the farmer was there, like how Shepard know destroy will effect all geth.
You're tryin gto use the case of ignoance but the fact remains Shepard was not ignorate that the geth and synthetic life would die off.

[Kabooooom]

Apple's iOS operating system is capable of self-preservation. If you try to jailbreak your iPhone, Apple might send out its hunter killer malware to permanently disable your device, as is permitted under Apple's terms of service. Would it be genocide to detonate an EMP device above an Apple store?

If iphones were sentient, then yes. You're missing the point entirely. You cannot create an analogy with today's technology, because artificial intelligence does not exist in today's technology.

[dreman9999]

EntropicAngel wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But destroys effect all synthetic no matter what. It doesnot matter if you only intend to kill a portion of them.....You still murdered them.

I wasn't murdering them, because there was no "malice" in what I did. Synthetics =/= Reapers

You're trying to over-generalize--trying to group two different groups into one.

If you blow up a building full of innocent people to kill one person, it's still murdering the other innocent people. 

[Subject M]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Subject M wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

An insect went extinct in California many years ago by Human intervention because it was devastating crops there.

That's genocide.

The question, though: Was it wrong?

No it was not genocide because genocide (as the law is written today) referes to populations and groups of humans.

you are right .. it was human caused extinction.

was the human group made exinct? No? Then it was not genocide.

[dreman9999]

bobobo878 wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...
If it has sentience, it is a living, thinking thing, that's capable of self-preservation.
Destroy is genocide.

Apple's iOS operating system is capable of self-preservation.  If you try to jailbreak your iPhone, Apple might send out its hunter killer malware to permanently disable your device, as is permitted under Apple's terms of service.  Would it be genocide to detonate an EMP device above an Apple store?

That not the same thing. The os does not send it...the company does.