But since you seem to be the expert, please do share some data and insights on the matter.
Modifié par Kabooooom, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:35 .
bobobo878 wrote...
And what makes you think that the Geth know what self preservation is or why they are preserving themselves? For all we know, all that philisophical crap that Legion threw at Shepard in ME2 could be ideas that the Geth borrowed from organic thinkers. They could just be pretending to know themselves, because that is what they are programmed to do.Dr_Extrem wrote...
your phone is programmed for self preservation. it however does not know what self preservation is or why it is preserving itself.
Kabooooom wrote...
But since you seem to be the expert, please do share some data and insights on the matter.
I'd be glad to if you tell me what you want to know. But a PM may be more appropriate if it derails the conversation to much. Either way, no problem.
Yes, they seem too, but we don't really know.Subject M wrote...
In the mass effect universe they seem to have figured these things out somehow. That is why the seperate btween VIs and AIsbobobo878 wrote...
And what makes you think that the Geth know what self preservation is or why they are preserving themselves? For all we know, all that philisophical crap that Legion threw at Shepard in ME2 could be ideas that the Geth borrowed from organic thinkers. They could just be pretending to know themselves, because that is what they are programmed to do.Dr_Extrem wrote...
your phone is programmed for self preservation. it however does not know what self preservation is or why it is preserving itself.
Wordweaver2010 wrote...
How about this as an alternative point of view? Don't focus on "life," focus on "sentience." Does it matter how the sentience (and, possibly, soul) is housed?
Well, on second thought, too many people would say it does... sadly, people have always been doing that, valuing or dismissing sentience based on its "housing."
Yes, they seem too, but we don't really know.
Modifié par Kabooooom, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:39 .
wantedman dan wrote...
futurepixels wrote...
This is a losing argument. You can't even prove the existence of souls in organics, the idea of synthetics having a soul is laughable.
Question: How do you define life, or living?
Kabooooom wrote...
self awareness of you as a personality and your position in time and space.
As someone pointed out, this definition does not extend to non-human animals who are sentient and alive. Therefore it is not entirely useful. But it is useful for our discussion, and in that case good, then we agree - and the Geth and EDI are alive, as their sentience is made apparent in the story.
Although, I should point out that this definition of "life" is only useful for our discussion on synthetic life. The biological definition includes organisms that are clearly not sentient, and yet still alive. That is what makes life so hard to define, and potentially an arbitrary definition that doesn't reflect reality, but only approximates it.
futurepixels wrote...
wantedman dan wrote...
futurepixels wrote...
This is a losing argument. You can't even prove the existence of souls in organics, the idea of synthetics having a soul is laughable.
Question: How do you define life, or living?
The scientific community can't even agree on a definition of "alive".
wantedman dan wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
wantedman dan wrote...
futurepixels wrote...
This is a losing argument. You can't even prove the existence of souls in organics, the idea of synthetics having a soul is laughable.
Question: How do you define life, or living?
self awareness of you as a personality and your position in time and space.
"i am alive, because i can make thoughts of myself and able to self reflect on them."
"ich denke, also bin ich"
Do you have a pet?
LDS Darth Revan wrote...
I disagree with you, but will respect your opinion.futurepixels wrote...
LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Just because something isn't organic, doesn't mean it's not alive.futurepixels wrote...
Kabooooom wrote...
Synthetics are simulated life, not true organic life. They should not be considered alive in the same way that organics are alive.
The biological definition of "life" is too narrow for the ME universe. That was like, one of the entire points of the Geth-Quarian story arc.
What matters more - being composed of cells, or being conscious?The answer to that question should be pretty clear, I think.
A simulation of consciousness is still not true organic consciousness.LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Being made of organic parts isn't either.futurepixels wrote...
LDS Darth Revan wrote...
They are sentient, which makes just as alive as organics.As someone put on here earlier, our bodies are just organic machines to keep our mind alive, so how are we different?
Sentience isn't the defining factor for what it means to be alive.
Since there isn't a solid definition of "alive" among the scientific community, this is where the debate ends. I believe that synthetic life can never be held on the same level of organic life by the very nature of it being synthetic. I do not believe that destroying a bunch of sentient machines is genocide.
This is because geth are much more complex than my phone's OS. Geth are designed to be programmed by their environments, while my phone was programmed by a man with a computer. Legion made the decision that it did because it was programmed by its experiences, not because it made a concious choice.Dr_Extrem wrote...
the fact, that a geth (legion) can give up his urge to preserve its existance if he wants to.bobobo878 wrote...
And what makes you think that the Geth know what self preservation is or why they are preserving themselves? For all we know, all that philisophical crap that Legion threw at Shepard in ME2 could be ideas that the Geth borrowed from organic thinkers. They could just be pretending to know themselves, because that is what they are programmed to do.Dr_Extrem wrote...
your phone is programmed for self preservation. it however does not know what self preservation is or why it is preserving itself.
your phone will always try to preserve its existance, until the progammer telss it otherwhise. legion made that decision by itself and without the intervention of a progammer.
wantedman dan wrote...
futurepixels wrote...
wantedman dan wrote...
futurepixels wrote...
This is a losing argument. You can't even prove the existence of souls in organics, the idea of synthetics having a soul is laughable.
Question: How do you define life, or living?
The scientific community can't even agree on a definition of "alive".
I'm not asking what the scientific community defines as such. I'm asking you.
Dr_Extrem wrote...
wantedman dan wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
wantedman dan wrote...
futurepixels wrote...
This is a losing argument. You can't even prove the existence of souls in organics, the idea of synthetics having a soul is laughable.
Question: How do you define life, or living?
self awareness of you as a personality and your position in time and space.
"i am alive, because i can make thoughts of myself and able to self reflect on them."
"ich denke, also bin ich"
Do you have a pet?
i had a dog. he was definately alie but not self aware.
bobobo878 wrote...
This is because geth are much more complex than my phone's OS. Geth are designed to be programmed by their environments, while my phone was programmed by a man with a computer. Legion made the decision that it did because it was programmed by its experiences, not because it made a concious choice.Dr_Extrem wrote...
the fact, that a geth (legion) can give up his urge to preserve its existance if he wants to.bobobo878 wrote...
And what makes you think that the Geth know what self preservation is or why they are preserving themselves? For all we know, all that philisophical crap that Legion threw at Shepard in ME2 could be ideas that the Geth borrowed from organic thinkers. They could just be pretending to know themselves, because that is what they are programmed to do.Dr_Extrem wrote...
your phone is programmed for self preservation. it however does not know what self preservation is or why it is preserving itself.
your phone will always try to preserve its existance, until the progammer telss it otherwhise. legion made that decision by itself and without the intervention of a progammer.
bobobo878 wrote...
This is because geth are muchDr_Extrem wrote...
the fact, that a geth (legion) can give up his urge to preserve its existance if he wants to.bobobo878 wrote...
AndDr_Extrem wrote...
your
phone is programmed for self preservation. it however does not know
what self preservation is or why it is preserving itself.
what makes you think that the Geth know what self preservation is or
why they are preserving themselves? For all we know, all that
philisophical crap that Legion threw at Shepard in ME2 could be ideas
that the Geth borrowed from organic thinkers. They could just be
pretending to know themselves, because that is what they are programmed
to do.
your
phone will always try to preserve its existance, until the progammer
telss it otherwhise. legion made that decision by itself and without the
intervention of a progammer.
more complex than my phone's OS. Geth are designed to be programmed by
their environments, while my phone was programmed by a man with a
computer. Legion made the decision that it did because it was
programmed by its experiences, not because it made a concious choice.
Modifié par OblivionDawn, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:46 .
futurepixels wrote...
I don't claim to more of an expert of the subject than the entire scientific community. Everything after this point is just beliefs based on other beliefs.
sure .. but genocide is a term to be used on sentient life ...
a dog or a cat (even certain monkeys) are not able to recognize themselves in a mirror.
wantedman dan wrote...
futurepixels wrote...
I don't claim to more of an expert of the subject than the entire scientific community. Everything after this point is just beliefs based on other beliefs.
So you obviously have no right to "laugh" at others with whom you disagree.
Modifié par futurepixels, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:45 .
wantedman dan wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
wantedman dan wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
wantedman dan wrote...
futurepixels wrote...
This is a losing argument. You can't even prove the existence of souls in organics, the idea of synthetics having a soul is laughable.
Question: How do you define life, or living?
self awareness of you as a personality and your position in time and space.
"i am alive, because i can make thoughts of myself and able to self reflect on them."
"ich denke, also bin ich"
Do you have a pet?
i had a dog. he was definately alie but not self aware.
But wait, you're already adding exceptions to your own rule.
futurepixels wrote...
wantedman dan wrote...
futurepixels wrote...
I don't claim to more of an expert of the subject than the entire scientific community. Everything after this point is just beliefs based on other beliefs.
So you obviously have no right to "laugh" at others with whom you disagree.
That doesn't make any sense.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
bobobo878 wrote...
This is because geth are much more complex than my phone's OS. Geth are designed to be programmed by their environments, while my phone was programmed by a man with a computer. Legion made the decision that it did because it was programmed by its experiences, not because it made a concious choice.
Kabooooom wrote...
sure .. but genocide is a term to be used on sentient life ...
Dogs and cats are sentient, by definition. You mean sapient or pass our test for self-awareness, which only a handful of species have passed our current litmus test for that. Which is flawed. Since you brought it up I will address that:a dog or a cat (even certain monkeys) are not able to recognize themselves in a mirror.
As I mentioned above, they are still sentient - they still feel and experience. That is separate from self-awareness. The mirror test though, comes with a caveat - it does not actually test for self-awareness. What it tests for is reflexive self-awareness and the ability to understand the intellectual concept of a mirror. If it is possible to be reflexively self-aware but NOT understand a mirror, this is not detected by the test.
Moreover, it has become apparent that reflexive self-awareness is one end of a spectrum. A dog or cat is aware of their self. They are aware of their body, and that their body is separate from the environment. This is controlled by a region of the telencephalon that is shared in all mammals. It is a pre-requisite for reflecting upon your self - ie: being aware that you are aware of your self. And that is specifically what you are talking about.
Dr_Extrem wrote...
no .. you are degrading life and being alive to pure biological function. a person who is braindead is alive but is he living?
sorry . i should have added "self aware".
bobobo878 wrote...
And what makes you think that the Geth know what self preservation is or why they are preserving themselves? For all we know, all that philisophical crap that Legion threw at Shepard in ME2 could be ideas that the Geth borrowed from organic thinkers. They could just be pretending to know themselves, because that is what they are programmed to do.Dr_Extrem wrote...
your phone is programmed for self preservation. it however does not know what self preservation is or why it is preserving itself.
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