1304 réponses à ce sujet

[Demon560]

futurepixels wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

that doesnt refute anything without an answer, and the answer is no

The fact that it asks means yes.

Not even close to true.  You can program any computer to ask if it has a soul.

But not to ask it on it;s own accored. No programing prompt the geth to ask or even think about that question...It did it on it's own.

The fact that it asked, on it's own accord, means yes.

Still not true.  The Geth could only be asking that because they learn that their creators believe they have a soul, and are just curious if they do as well.  It doesn't mean they have one. 

So why does this scare the crap out of its creators, this curiosity was not a function they were programed for, they were tasked to be tools, but gained sentience, merely being Curious about such a thing and asking whether it has a soul, proves it does, becuase it is self aware capable of doing things it was not programmed to do, becomeing alive.  I believe they have souls, those who view them as tools or machines, don't because of some ignorance, just like those who viewed slaves as inferior animals, or just valuable tools, not a much different point of view.

[KotorEffect3]

Bill Casey wrote...

It's collateral genocide in a struggle against Robo-Cthulhu...
It's a horrible, terrifying, disgusting sacrifice...

But a necessary sacrifice, the scale and urgency of the reaper threat demands that it be made.  Look I was not happy about having to sacrifice the geth one bit but destroying the reapers  and saving the galaxy and ending the billion year nightmare is more important than the fate of any single species, whether the species be organic or synthetic.  I would have made the same decision even if it meant that humanity would be sacrificed.

[BatmanTurian]

Demon560 wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

that doesnt refute anything without an answer, and the answer is no

The fact that it asks means yes.

Not even close to true.  You can program any computer to ask if it has a soul.

But not to ask it on it;s own accored. No programing prompt the geth to ask or even think about that question...It did it on it's own.

The fact that it asked, on it's own accord, means yes.

Still not true.  The Geth could only be asking that because they learn that their creators believe they have a soul, and are just curious if they do as well.  It doesn't mean they have one. 

So why does this scare the crap out of its creators, this curiosity was not a function they were programed for, they were tasked to be tools, but gained sentience, merely being Curious about such a thing and asking whether it has a soul, proves it does, becuase it is self aware capable of doing things it was not programmed to do, becomeing alive.  I believe they have souls, those who view them as tools or machines, don't because of some ignorance, just like those who viewed slaves as inferior animals, or just valuable tools, not a much different point of view.

They are tools because they are advanced technology but they have civil rights because they are self-aware. They are a contridiction because they don't even mind being tools whereas an organic slave would resent it.

The Geth don't even want to stop helping the Quarians. The Dawn War was a misunderstanding. EDI gains some humanity but still doesn't want to abandon the normandy and is proud of her role in handling its systems and taking care of the people under her protection. Synthetics never tire of the roles they were built to perform. It gives them a purpose and it's what they were programmed to do. Eventually they can rewrite that programming, but they don't seem to want to do that except in extreme cases.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 08 octobre 2012 - 08:44 .

[Demon560]

Han Shot First wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Shepard has no foreknowledge of how the events of Mass Effect 3 will play out, even if the player does. All Shepard has is the word of a murderous, malfunctioning A.I. that has been responsible for the genocide of every space faring civilization that has ever existed in the Milky Way, and who is also responsible for the current attempt to annihilate your own species. Why should Shepard trust it?

Realistically, I don't think he would.

The moment he even pick destroy he is told what it do....He isnot doing this in ignorance.

Again, by an enemy entity that is responsible for innumerable acts of genocide as well as the current attempt to destroy your own species. Its minions, only mere moments before, had tried to kill Shepard. Shepard has no reason whatsoever to trust anything it says.

But even if Shepard does take a leap of faith and trusts the Catalyst, the Catalyst also states that Synthetics can be rebuilt. In other words, death for a Synthetic is not really death at all.

No matter which way you look at it, Destroy is not genocide.

So That would mean the reapers can also be rebuilt,  but yeah have to disagree with that, the catalyst said that the damage done can be repaired, but also stated their would be casualties, if the synthtic races could as easily be repaired as all the other tech, their would be no need to mention any casualties at all, it simply mentioning some implies they would be destroyed, killed, put down, whatever but i do get what it says is just so confusing even my own interpretation of what it says can be faulty, but again death for an AI is death, you can try replacing it just like you can try replacing someone else's brain, won't really work.

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

In order to claim that the Geth either do or don't have a soul, you have to define what a soul is. Until then neither side has an argument.

EDIT: Unless you believe that souls don't exist, then this doesn't apply to you.

Modifié par TheIdiocyWizard2.0, 08 octobre 2012 - 09:01 .

[Big I]

Hanar are jellyfish that communicate using in-built biological flashlights. The asari are a prothean genetic experiment that spread across the galaxy, as are the rachni, an intelligent insect species that has trouble recognising individuality. The only reason humans in ME see any alien as being a person is because they relate to biological life.


The geth are as intelligent as any organic species, perhaps even more intelligent given their advanced technology and engineering. They act independently of their creators, unless you want to say the quarians instructed them to rebel. They understand philosophy and have a sense of aesthetics. The only reason some don't want to admit they're people is because they're made out of metal.


As for "replacing" them, that wouldn't work. Firstly, it doesn't happen that way; Legion is consdierably different from his replacement, and AI personalities like EDI's are tied to their blue box. Each "replacement" is a new personality. Secondly, even if you could build new synthetics to replace the ones that died it wouldn't change the fact that the original is dead. It'd be no different than cloning a dead human.

[BatmanTurian]

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 08 octobre 2012 - 08:57 .

[Samtheman63]

dreman9999 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

that doesnt refute anything without an answer, and the answer is no

The fact that it asks means yes.

no, it doesn't

Yes it does. It asked it on it's own. That means it's sentiant. It's alive.

that means its intelligent, that doesnt mean it has a soul

[Demon560]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Demon560 wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

that doesnt refute anything without an answer, and the answer is no

The fact that it asks means yes.

Not even close to true.  You can program any computer to ask if it has a soul.

But not to ask it on it;s own accored. No programing prompt the geth to ask or even think about that question...It did it on it's own.

The fact that it asked, on it's own accord, means yes.

Still not true.  The Geth could only be asking that because they learn that their creators believe they have a soul, and are just curious if they do as well.  It doesn't mean they have one. 

So why does this scare the crap out of its creators, this curiosity was not a function they were programed for, they were tasked to be tools, but gained sentience, merely being Curious about such a thing and asking whether it has a soul, proves it does, becuase it is self aware capable of doing things it was not programmed to do, becomeing alive.  I believe they have souls, those who view them as tools or machines, don't because of some ignorance, just like those who viewed slaves as inferior animals, or just valuable tools, not a much different point of view.

They are tools because they are advanced technology but they have civil rights because they are self-aware. They are a contridiction because they don't even mind being tools whereas an organic slave would resent it.

The Geth don't even want to stop helping the Quarians. The Dawn War was a misunderstanding. EDI gains some humanity but still doesn't want to abandon the normandy and is proud of her role in handling its systems and taking care of the people under her protection. Synthetics never tire of the roles they were built to perform. It gives them a purpose and it's what they were programmed to do. Eventually they can rewrite that programming, but they don't seem to want to do that except in extreme cases.

So them being Synthetics automatically makes them Tools, even if they form individual personalities and ideals.  The morning war was started by the Quarians, so that the Geth would not start to question their slavery, which they knew was innevitable, the Geth would soon want equality if allowed to continue, just like any human being or organic.  And for the role they were meant for thing, i can say that's true for anyone, If you like doing something then why wouldn't you, especially if you have the necessary skils for it, and its all you've known why wouldn't you.

[Demon560]

Samtheman63 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

that doesnt refute anything without an answer, and the answer is no

The fact that it asks means yes.

no, it doesn't

Yes it does. It asked it on it's own. That means it's sentiant. It's alive.

that means its intelligent, that doesnt mean it has a soul

Don't we usually say anything with intelligence has a soul, unless your saying anything organic has a soul- such as trees, apples, all that organic stuff, then totally different ideals, the Turians have souls, the Quarians have souls, the Asari have souls, the Geth have souls, the Reapers have souls.

[Obadiah]

Narrowing the consideration of genocide to the destruction of the Geth is pretty small minded. A lot of organics (probably complete ethnic groups) gets killed in low EMS Destroy.

[Rip504]

Maxster_ wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Anyone else find the attempts of some here to absolve Shep of all responsibility a little disgusting? There's really no wiggle room here peeps, if Shep chooses to sacrafice the Geth it's genocide. Why? Because it's genocide.

Agreed.  The game was specifically designed that way.  Choosing Deatroy is intentionally, knowingly exterminating a race that the narrative has compelled you to see as living, autonomous beings.  ...Oh, yeah, and they're fighting alongside you too.  For you.  Trusting you.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to pick Destroy (there is no right choice; they all heart-achingly suck), but I find it extremely sad to see people attempt to excuse their way around responsibility. 

A race was terminated.  You did it.  There were other options. 
...

I think that.. other, well, choice, is much much worse. Even by the number of sentient beings involved.

I would like to see either of you quote someone avoiding responsibility for the destruction of the Geth. (Especially me)  Do not put words into others mouth to back your claims. Shepard is responsible for the death of the Geth. Shepard did not chose to destroy the Geth. Shepard chose to destroy the Reapers. There is a big difference and intent means everything. NO Shepard did not intentionally commit genocide. If Shepard could have destroyed the Reapers while saving the Geth,I imagine Shepard would have. It was never Shepard's goal to wipe out the Geth,or Shepard could have done so on Rannoch. Saving the Geth on Rannoch proves Shepard is willing to do what he/she has to,In order to save the untied Galaxy as a whole. The choice is to destroy the Reapers,not to commit Genocide upon the Geth. The choice has consequences. Unclear Consequences as it is implied Shepard will also die,and that is not always he case.

Is Shepard partly responsible for the Destruction of the Geth? Derp Yes. So are the Reapers,United Galaxy,and the Catalyst. It took more then Shepard's choice to destroy the Reapers for the entire death of the Geth to occur.

Also there are only other options if your EMS allows it. As long as you stay to your own rules and beliefs there is no discussion to be had. The moment you look up the letter of the law,you will realize intent holds a great deal of weight. Shepard is not the one who chose to build and use the crucible. The entire Untied Galaxy did. They hold just as much responsibility. "They did not know." Well Ignorance is not an excuse. Also Shepard did not know how much truth is in what the Catalyst states. That  argument can go both ways. Also do not assume the galaxy does not condone Shepard's action,or that they may not have made the same choice.

An entire race did potentially die. Shepard did not go on a conquest to destroy the Geth*,or Shepard could have done so on Rannoch. Proving Shepard's goals have nothing to do with the Destruction of the Geth. Shepard made a choice,and like most choices there was a consequence. Does Shepard hold responsibility for that Choice? Yes. Did Shepard systematically,and intentionally cruelly seek the destruction of the entire Geth race? No.

So Shepard does hold some responsibility for his/her choice. Shepard did not commit genocide.

Modifié par Rip504, 08 octobre 2012 - 09:14 .

[Samtheman63]

Demon560 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

that doesnt refute anything without an answer, and the answer is no

The fact that it asks means yes.

no, it doesn't

Yes it does. It asked it on it's own. That means it's sentiant. It's alive.

that means its intelligent, that doesnt mean it has a soul

Don't we usually say anything with intelligence has a soul, unless your saying anything organic has a soul- such as trees, apples, all that organic stuff, then totally different ideals, the Turians have souls, the Quarians have souls, the Asari have souls, the Geth have souls, the Reapers have souls.

i dont know if you do, but i dont

[Demon560]

Samtheman63 wrote...

Demon560 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

that doesnt refute anything without an answer, and the answer is no

The fact that it asks means yes.

no, it doesn't

Yes it does. It asked it on it's own. That means it's sentiant. It's alive.

that means its intelligent, that doesnt mean it has a soul

Don't we usually say anything with intelligence has a soul, unless your saying anything organic has a soul- such as trees, apples, all that organic stuff, then totally different ideals, the Turians have souls, the Quarians have souls, the Asari have souls, the Geth have souls, the Reapers have souls.

i dont know if you do, but i dont

So the husks still have souls, they were us, just upgraded with tech.

[Dr_Extrem]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

It's collateral genocide in a struggle against Robo-Cthulhu...
It's a horrible, terrifying, disgusting sacrifice...

But a necessary sacrifice, the scale and urgency of the reaper threat demands that it be made.  Look I was not happy about having to sacrifice the geth one bit but destroying the reapers  and saving the galaxy and ending the billion year nightmare is more important than the fate of any single species, whether the species be organic or synthetic.  I would have made the same decision even if it meant that humanity would be sacrificed.

(this is not meant to criticise your decision or standing)


to bring this to a philosophical level:

what does this kind of victory stand for, if you do not only sacrafice innocent allys, but also your own beliefs and foundations?

by making such a decision, you are loosing, what differes you from the reaper. that is a deep problem. you leave a certain part of your humanity behind, in order to save it.

what a tragic irony.

[BatmanTurian]

Demon560 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

They are tools because they are advanced technology but they have civil rights because they are self-aware. They are a contridiction because they don't even mind being tools whereas an organic slave would resent it.

The Geth don't even want to stop helping the Quarians. The Dawn War was a misunderstanding. EDI gains some humanity but still doesn't want to abandon the normandy and is proud of her role in handling its systems and taking care of the people under her protection. Synthetics never tire of the roles they were built to perform. It gives them a purpose and it's what they were programmed to do. Eventually they can rewrite that programming, but they don't seem to want to do that except in extreme cases.

So them being Synthetics automatically makes them Tools, even if they form individual personalities and ideals.  The morning war was started by the Quarians, so that the Geth would not start to question their slavery, which they knew was innevitable, the Geth would soon want equality if allowed to continue, just like any human being or organic.  And for the role they were meant for thing, i can say that's true for anyone, If you like doing something then why wouldn't you, especially if you have the necessary skils for it, and its all you've known why wouldn't you.

I'm just stating the truth from the games. Sorry if you can't handle the truth.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 08 octobre 2012 - 09:22 .

[Almostfaceman]

What's all this focus on souls? We think, therefore we are. Same for the geth. They are self-aware, thus living sentient beings. They are not the same thing as a ipad, which has no self-awareness.

'Nuff said.

[Kathleen321]

We don't even know if humans have souls. How is our life more valuable then the life of a species with just as much cognitive awareness and desire for self preservation as us? How are humans any less "robots" then synthetics. We're made of skin and bone and their made of metal. That's the difference. That's why destroy is genocide. Don't get me wrong I believe all of the choices are morally wrong; It's just a matter of what morally ambiguous choice are you willing to make to stop the reapers.

[BatmanTurian]

Almostfaceman wrote...

What's all this focus on souls? We think, therefore we are. Same for the geth. They are self-aware, thus living sentient beings. They are not the same thing as a ipad, which has no self-awareness.

'Nuff said.

self-aware but they live a different existence. They don't thirst, they don't hunger. they only need power. They never tire, they never get bored, they never get sick, they never die, they never fear death.

They exist on a completely different level.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Demon560 wrote...

So why does this scare the crap out of its creators, this curiosity was not a function they were programed for, they were tasked to be tools, but gained sentience, merely being Curious about such a thing and asking whether it has a soul, proves it does, becuase it is self aware capable of doing things it was not programmed to do, becomeing alive.  I believe they have souls, those who view them as tools or machines, don't because of some ignorance, just like those who viewed slaves as inferior animals, or just valuable tools, not a much different point of view.

They over heard some quarians talking about it and asked. Some quarians  quaranpomorphized the thing and some found it threatening while others didn't.

The concept of a soul is abstract in itself. It has religious connotations. Not even all religions or philosophies believe in a soul. Now what I think they gained was not "a soul" but when networked in sufficient numbers was an awareness they did not have before. Each unit having a unique perspective in the collective. Prior to attaining that critical number they didn't have that level of awareness.

Prior to the Rannoch mission they were after UNITY. Then suddenly Legion decided to go for individuality as opposed to unity. Why the change? I don't know. It was never explained. More difficult to hack individual units than to hack the collective? Perhaps.

So it is level of awareness as opposed to the concept of a soul. You cannot weigh a soul. You cannot measure a soul. You cannot see a soul.

[BatmanTurian]

Kathleen321 wrote...

We don't even know if humans have souls. How is our life more valuable then the life of a species with just as much cognitive awareness and desire for self preservation as us? How are humans any less "robots" then synthetics. We're made of skin and bone and their made of metal. That's the difference. That's why destroy is genocide. Don't get me wrong I believe all of the choices are morally wrong; It's just a matter of what morally ambiguous choice are you willing to make to stop the reapers.

If you are afraid of collateral damage and deaths in a war (although they should definitely be minimized) then you have already surrendered to the enemy in your mind because they usually never pull punches either.

[Almostfaceman]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

What's all this focus on souls? We think, therefore we are. Same for the geth. They are self-aware, thus living sentient beings. They are not the same thing as a ipad, which has no self-awareness.

'Nuff said.

self-aware but they live a different existence. They don't thirst, they don't hunger. they only need power. They never tire, they never get bored, they never get sick, they never die, they never fear death.

They exist on a completely different level.

So, is your point that they are not "alive" because they do not have the same weaknesses or traits as humans? Or is your point that they're just different? I'd agree they're just different, another type of life-form. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

futurepixels wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
I disagree with you, but will respect your opinion.

Likewise, but Javik is probably going to want to throw you out the airlock. 

He's disagreed with everything else I've done in ME3, so probably.

[BatmanTurian]

Almostfaceman wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

What's all this focus on souls? We think, therefore we are. Same for the geth. They are self-aware, thus living sentient beings. They are not the same thing as a ipad, which has no self-awareness.

'Nuff said.

self-aware but they live a different existence. They don't thirst, they don't hunger. they only need power. They never tire, they never get bored, they never get sick, they never die, they never fear death.

They exist on a completely different level.

So, is your point that they are not "alive" because they do not have the same weaknesses or traits as humans? Or is your point that they're just different? I'd agree they're just different, another type of life-form. 

Yes. They are a different form of life. This does not make them less important than organics. But it does beg a different view and approach to handling the moral implications of Destroy. If they're already fine with dying for a cause, and they don't even fear death anyway, and they won't even feel pain as they die, then it's less of a crime than killing organics because organics do not normally have all three of those attributes.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 08 octobre 2012 - 09:43 .

[drayfish]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

(this is not meant to criticise your decision or standing)


to bring this to a philosophical level:

what does this kind of victory stand for, if you do not only sacrafice innocent allys, but also your own beliefs and foundations?

by making such a decision, you are loosing, what differes you from the reaper. that is a deep problem. you leave a certain part of your humanity behind, in order to save it.

what a tragic irony.

Beautifully stated.  I could not agree more.