1304 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Aaleel wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.

Exactly. A Shepard that picked destroy did so knowing full well that the Geth would be killed, meaning it was deliberate.

But Shepard didn't do it with the purpose of wiping out Geth and Geth only.  That's what genocide is.  You targeted a specific race based solely on what they were or believe in and decided to wipe out them and only them.

And by choosing to destroy the Reapers and knowing it would annihilate the geth as well, Shepard tageted them both.

[Zaidra]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Zaidra wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

One might argue that a soul is an abstraction. Meaningless.

and to that I say.... no, the soul is the only meaningful thing. 

Though I don't agree with op, I still agree with op. The geth do have souls, but they can be repaired. Nobody ever said that destroy was permanent, in fact, catalyst said otherwise. How do we know we're not just temporarily shutting them down?

I still think that destroy was the best option. Plus, if you do synthesis, how is that any different than the reapers themselves? When you think about it, reapers are just organic-synthetic hybrids, as are husks, and possibly all of the other reaper units (not really clear on whether those are indoctrinated or huskinated xD). How is changing everyone into organic-synthetic hybrids any different than changing them to husks, beside the fact that they're not indoctrinated and still have minds? 

Exactly. the Geth can be repaired and recreated. EDI however.... the person she was is gone sadly.

One would hope that the Normandy's AI core room would have a defense against EMPs. I mean, when it comes down to war, they wouldn't just leave her exposed. Imagine an enemy hitting them with an EMP and all of their systems go down. Sure, the Normandy would be back up in two minutes, but what would happen to EDI? They wouldn't let such an expensive investment go to waste. Cerberus was thinking ahead when they designed the new Normandy, they wouldn't just leave her exposed.

So yeah... my vote is on the AI core room being protected. xD otherwise it's just not realistic.


That whole AI core thing aside, you'd think that Cerberus would have supplied them with an EMP-resistent power supply. Seriously, they have those (and i mean they have them in current time), why wouldn't they use them? Especially for a ship?

Modifié par Zaidra, 08 octobre 2012 - 11:18 .

[wantedman dan]

knightnblu wrote...
 
As a student of ethics 

No, you aren't.

knightnblu wrote...

This leaves destroy as the only viable option. 
 
That said, there is no rational basis to choose either control or synthesis because you cannot say that you trust the Catalyst unless you metagame it. Therefore, the only remaining option from a trust and ethical perspective is destroy even when you include the deaths of EDI and the Geth.

Included above are a few examples detailing your disgusting level of ignorance in terms of the relativistic nature of ethical pursuits. There is no "definite," categorical ethical standard, rather, ethics are fluid and changeable. Nice try on attepting to make yourself look good. Unfortunately, anyone with any semblance of education will see right through your sham.

[Heimdall]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

The target was the reapers, the geth were collateral damage. Yes Shepard knew they would go down when the catalyst told him that destroy would destroy all synthetics but it was the only way to do destroy the reapers. Every species that was fighting on earth and in the skies over earth was commited to do what it takes to destroy the reapers, including the geth.  You can call it genocide if you want but to me it was justified considering the circumstances.

If it were humans?  What would you do then?

[BatmanTurian]

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Well...it was implied they would be " targeted" but we see no evidence of this afterwards beyond EDI's name on the normandy wall. The geth are not shown or even mentioned. It's vague.

This is actually beside the point.  You don't even know if the AI is telling the truth in the first place or just trying to stop you from using the weapon that is about to defeat its side.

Yes, all this is assuming he isn't playing loose with the facts.

I get that but I don't really buy that the Catalyst is lying about everything.  The Reapers have never actually lied to our faces before.

And if it could lie, why would it tell you about Destroy in the first place, much less offer it as the only option in some cases?

Who knows? Again, I didn't write this stuff. As the guy above me said, there is no logical reason to trust the catalyst as the perpetrator of genocide himself and the creator of a devious cyborg species. But if you guys want to trust him, do as you like.

[wantedman dan]

And with that, I have some org. comm. to read.

[genocidal villain]

I have to disagree with you especially the legion part. If legion was sold or died it is replaced it is replaced by the geth vi. This geth vi lS not legion. It is designed to look like legion, but it isn't legion; it even said it isn't legion. The geth bodies can be rebuilt, but whoever they once were is gone, dead. If you say they are not alive then define what is considered alive or what is considered living. Is a brain dead person alive? Is a baby born with anencephaly considered alive? Hell i consider killing reapers is genocide.

[Kabooooom]

How do you know that? Because EDI speculated it based on very limited information? The Protheans being unharvestable was EDI's best guess, not canon, and even if she were right, we know from talking to Javik (and even from EDI's same train of thought as the Prothean Reaper's failure) that the Reapers still attempted to create a Prothean Reaper, meaning that yes, they were harvested. My point still stands.

What did Javik say, exactly? I've played the game several times but I must have missed that dialog. I do recall him exhibiting surprise that the Protheans were turned into the Collectors and survived into this cycle, and gratitude for Shep destroying them (aaaahhh...ha ha. Shep and genocide don't mix).

[BatmanTurian]

Zaidra wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Zaidra wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

One might argue that a soul is an abstraction. Meaningless.

and to that I say.... no, the soul is the only meaningful thing. 

Though I don't agree with op, I still agree with op. The geth do have souls, but they can be repaired. Nobody ever said that destroy was permanent, in fact, catalyst said otherwise. How do we know we're not just temporarily shutting them down?

I still think that destroy was the best option. Plus, if you do synthesis, how is that any different than the reapers themselves? When you think about it, reapers are just organic-synthetic hybrids, as are husks, and possibly all of the other reaper units (not really clear on whether those are indoctrinated or huskinated xD). How is changing everyone into organic-synthetic hybrids any different than changing them to husks, beside the fact that they're not indoctrinated and still have minds? 

Exactly. the Geth can be repaired and recreated. EDI however.... the person she was is gone sadly.

One would hope that the Normandy's AI core room would have a defense against EMPs. I mean, when it comes down to war, they wouldn't just leave her exposed. Imagine an enemy hitting them with an EMP and all of their systems go down. Sure, the Normandy would be back up in two minutes, but what would happen to EDI? They wouldn't let such an expensive investment go to waste. Cerberus was thinking ahead when they designed the new Normandy, they wouldn't just leave her exposed.

So yeah... my vote is on the AI core room being protected. xD otherwise it's just not realistic.

And that's the argument that the plaque on the wall is for EDI's Dr Core body, but it is unlikely.

[Heimdall]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Well...it was implied they would be " targeted" but we see no evidence of this afterwards beyond EDI's name on the normandy wall. The geth are not shown or even mentioned. It's vague.

This is actually beside the point.  You don't even know if the AI is telling the truth in the first place or just trying to stop you from using the weapon that is about to defeat its side.

Yes, all this is assuming he isn't playing loose with the facts.

I get that but I don't really buy that the Catalyst is lying about everything.  The Reapers have never actually lied to our faces before.

And if it could lie, why would it tell you about Destroy in the first place, much less offer it as the only option in some cases?

Who knows? Again, I didn't write this stuff. As the guy above me said, there is no logical reason to trust the catalyst as the perpetrator of genocide himself and the creator of a devious cyborg species. But if you guys want to trust him, do as you like.

My basis for trusting him is that he's giving me instructions on how to kill him.

That and at least some of what he says has been corroborated by the Leviathans

If you don't trust him at all, there's no reason to believe Destroy won't kill EDI and the Geth while leaving the Reapers completely fine.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 08 octobre 2012 - 11:22 .

[Aaleel]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.

Exactly. A Shepard that picked destroy did so knowing full well that the Geth would be killed, meaning it was deliberate.

But Shepard didn't do it with the purpose of wiping out Geth and Geth only.  That's what genocide is.  You targeted a specific race based solely on what they were or believe in and decided to wipe out them and only them.

He did it with the purpose of wiping out synthetics because they were synthetics.  That's how destroy was explained to him by the Catalyst.

No Shepard did it with the purpose of killing every reaper because they've been murdering races for millions of years, and Shepard wanted to stop it.

If you want to say I committed genocide on reapers than fine, because it was my intent to kill each and every reaper.

[BatmanTurian]

Fandango9641 wrote...

What point these silly little semantic games? 2 minutes on google tells me that The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) define genocide as being:

Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Article 2 CPPCG)

Destroy is genocide, no question.

But it is a genocide perpetrated to stop an omnicide. So there's that.

[Geneaux486]

Lord Aesir wrote...
My basis for trusting him is that he's giving me instructions on how to kill him.

You don't even have to trust him.  If you attempt to use the Crucible and it doesn't work, you lose the war.  If you don't use the Crucible at all, you lose the war.  At worst it's a glimmer of hope where none previously existed, hence why I think action in that situation is preferable to inaction.

If you want to say I committed genocide on reapers than fine, because it was my intent to kill each and every reaper.

Well you didn't commit genocide on anything because it's a fictional story, but I stand by my argument that what Destroy did to the Geth does constitute a genocidal act within the game's lore. 

Modifié par Geneaux486, 08 octobre 2012 - 11:23 .

[KotorEffect3]

Lord Aesir wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

The target was the reapers, the geth were collateral damage. Yes Shepard knew they would go down when the catalyst told him that destroy would destroy all synthetics but it was the only way to do destroy the reapers. Every species that was fighting on earth and in the skies over earth was commited to do what it takes to destroy the reapers, including the geth.  You can call it genocide if you want but to me it was justified considering the circumstances.

If it were humans?  What would you do then?

Yes I would, I think I even mentioned in this thread that I would without hesitation.  To me ending the billion year nightmare that has been the reapers is more important than the fate of any single species, doesn't matter if that species is synthetic, organic, or even my own species.  There is an entire galaxy at stake here.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 08 octobre 2012 - 11:22 .

[BatmanTurian]

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Well...it was implied they would be " targeted" but we see no evidence of this afterwards beyond EDI's name on the normandy wall. The geth are not shown or even mentioned. It's vague.

This is actually beside the point.  You don't even know if the AI is telling the truth in the first place or just trying to stop you from using the weapon that is about to defeat its side.

Yes, all this is assuming he isn't playing loose with the facts.

I get that but I don't really buy that the Catalyst is lying about everything.  The Reapers have never actually lied to our faces before.

And if it could lie, why would it tell you about Destroy in the first place, much less offer it as the only option in some cases?

Who knows? Again, I didn't write this stuff. As the guy above me said, there is no logical reason to trust the catalyst as the perpetrator of genocide himself and the creator of a devious cyborg species. But if you guys want to trust him, do as you like.

My basis for trusting him is that he's giving me instructions on how to kill him.

That and at least some of what he says has been corroborated by the Leviathans

Some of it, yeah. He's also saying " hey don't push that button though because do I have a deal for you" and starts talking like a used car salesman. But we won't agree on this so....

[MegaSovereign]

It's sacrificial genocide.

[Zaidra]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Zaidra wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Zaidra wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

"Does this unit have a soul?"

That is the only sentence I need to refute that argument.

One might argue that a soul is an abstraction. Meaningless.

and to that I say.... no, the soul is the only meaningful thing. 

Though I don't agree with op, I still agree with op. The geth do have souls, but they can be repaired. Nobody ever said that destroy was permanent, in fact, catalyst said otherwise. How do we know we're not just temporarily shutting them down?

I still think that destroy was the best option. Plus, if you do synthesis, how is that any different than the reapers themselves? When you think about it, reapers are just organic-synthetic hybrids, as are husks, and possibly all of the other reaper units (not really clear on whether those are indoctrinated or huskinated xD). How is changing everyone into organic-synthetic hybrids any different than changing them to husks, beside the fact that they're not indoctrinated and still have minds? 

Exactly. the Geth can be repaired and recreated. EDI however.... the person she was is gone sadly.

One would hope that the Normandy's AI core room would have a defense against EMPs. I mean, when it comes down to war, they wouldn't just leave her exposed. Imagine an enemy hitting them with an EMP and all of their systems go down. Sure, the Normandy would be back up in two minutes, but what would happen to EDI? They wouldn't let such an expensive investment go to waste. Cerberus was thinking ahead when they designed the new Normandy, they wouldn't just leave her exposed.

So yeah... my vote is on the AI core room being protected. xD otherwise it's just not realistic.

And that's the argument that the plaque on the wall is for EDI's Dr Core body, but it is unlikely.

I think that bioware did such a good job covering all of the options up until the last twenty minutes of the game, then they managed to leave like five hundred plotholes that just leave us guessing....

trolls

[Heimdall]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

The target was the reapers, the geth were collateral damage. Yes Shepard knew they would go down when the catalyst told him that destroy would destroy all synthetics but it was the only way to do destroy the reapers. Every species that was fighting on earth and in the skies over earth was commited to do what it takes to destroy the reapers, including the geth.  You can call it genocide if you want but to me it was justified considering the circumstances.

If it were humans?  What would you do then?

Yes I would, I think I even mentioned in this thread that I would without hesitation.  To me ending the billion year nightmare that has been the reapers is more important than the fate of any single species, doesn't matter if that species is synthetic, organic, or even my own species.  There is an entire galaxy at stake here.

Your ruthless, I get it.

[Taboo]

The issue I always had was people's Shepard's not understanding what it did. It's the lack of acceptance of responsibly that bothers me. You ARE killing an entire race of beings.

The question is is whether or not your Shepard plans on taking responsibility.

My canon playthrough has dead Geth so my Shepard is somewhat in the clear. But he must take responsibility for EDI.

[KotorEffect3]

Lord Aesir wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

The target was the reapers, the geth were collateral damage. Yes Shepard knew they would go down when the catalyst told him that destroy would destroy all synthetics but it was the only way to do destroy the reapers. Every species that was fighting on earth and in the skies over earth was commited to do what it takes to destroy the reapers, including the geth.  You can call it genocide if you want but to me it was justified considering the circumstances.

If it were humans?  What would you do then?

Yes I would, I think I even mentioned in this thread that I would without hesitation.  To me ending the billion year nightmare that has been the reapers is more important than the fate of any single species, doesn't matter if that species is synthetic, organic, or even my own species.  There is an entire galaxy at stake here.

Your ruthless, I get it.

Actualy most of my Shepards are paragon and I play leaning heavily towards paragon decisions.  It's just the reality of the reaper threat makes some things unavoidable.

[Heimdall]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Well...it was implied they would be " targeted" but we see no evidence of this afterwards beyond EDI's name on the normandy wall. The geth are not shown or even mentioned. It's vague.

This is actually beside the point.  You don't even know if the AI is telling the truth in the first place or just trying to stop you from using the weapon that is about to defeat its side.

Yes, all this is assuming he isn't playing loose with the facts.

I get that but I don't really buy that the Catalyst is lying about everything.  The Reapers have never actually lied to our faces before.

And if it could lie, why would it tell you about Destroy in the first place, much less offer it as the only option in some cases?

Who knows? Again, I didn't write this stuff. As the guy above me said, there is no logical reason to trust the catalyst as the perpetrator of genocide himself and the creator of a devious cyborg species. But if you guys want to trust him, do as you like.

My basis for trusting him is that he's giving me instructions on how to kill him.

That and at least some of what he says has been corroborated by the Leviathans

Some of it, yeah. He's also saying " hey don't push that button though because do I have a deal for you" and starts talking like a used car salesman. But we won't agree on this so....

If you don't trust him at all, there's no reason to believe Destroy
won't kill EDI and the Geth while leaving the Reapers completely fine.

[Aaleel]

Lord Aesir wrote...

And by choosing to destroy the Reapers and knowing it would annihilate the geth as well, Shepard tageted them both.

Ok, say aliens attacked the Earth tomorrow, and all the people of the world built a weapon deciding that it was the only way to stop the aliens and preserve the continuity of the human race.  But you also knew that wherever you used this weapon i would cause wide scale devastation to whatever area it was used on killing scores of people.

You go ahead with the plan agreed to by everyone and use it and defeat the enemy but you wipe out a large of portion of whatever population was native to the country you used it in.

You did not commit genocide on the citizens of whatever country you used it in, you just didn't I'm sorry.  What you did was not a war crime.

[Heimdall]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

The target was the reapers, the geth were collateral damage. Yes Shepard knew they would go down when the catalyst told him that destroy would destroy all synthetics but it was the only way to do destroy the reapers. Every species that was fighting on earth and in the skies over earth was commited to do what it takes to destroy the reapers, including the geth.  You can call it genocide if you want but to me it was justified considering the circumstances.

If it were humans?  What would you do then?

Yes I would, I think I even mentioned in this thread that I would without hesitation.  To me ending the billion year nightmare that has been the reapers is more important than the fate of any single species, doesn't matter if that species is synthetic, organic, or even my own species.  There is an entire galaxy at stake here.

Your ruthless, I get it.

Actualy most of my Shepards are paragon and I play leaning heavily towards paragon decisions.  It's just the reality of the reaper threat makes some things unavoidable.

Perfectly avoidable, you had two other alternatives. (Refuse doesn't count)

But I respect your opinion

[Geneaux486]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The issue I always had was people's Shepard's not understanding what it did. It's the lack of acceptance of responsibly that bothers me. You ARE killing an entire race of beings.

The question is is whether or not your Shepard plans on taking responsibility.

My canon playthrough has dead Geth so my Shepard is somewhat in the clear. But he must take responsibility for EDI.

In my opinion, much of the guilt that would be placed on Shepard is diminished by the fact that Shepard was thrust into the position of having to bring closure to a conflict that spanned eons and that he had nothing to do with starting.  He's placed in a no-win situation and forced to make one of four impossible decisions.  In my opinion, the fault for the negative consequences of the use of the Crucible truly rests on those who necessitated its use in the first place, that being the Catalyst, the Reapers, and the Leviathans, though they did so unintentionally.  Shepard's basically being forced to clean up a giant mess that he didn't make, and while he is responsible for the decision he makes, the blame does not solely rest on him.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 08 octobre 2012 - 11:28 .

[Taboo]

Geneaux486 wrote...
In my opinion, much of the guilt that would be placed on Shepard is diminished by the fact that Shepard was thrusted into the position of having to bring closure to a conflict that spanned eons and that he had nothing to do with starting.  He's placed in a no-win situation and forced to make one of four impossible decisions.  In my opinion, the fault for the negative consequences of the use of the Crucible truly rests on those who necessitated its use in the first place, that being the Catalyst, the Reapers, and the Leviathans, though they did so unintentionally.  Shepard's basically being forced to clean up a giant mess.

That's a very interesting take on the situation. Really. I'll be thinking on this some more. Impressive.