1304 réponses à ce sujet

[BatmanTurian]

anyway, I'm withdrawing from this thread since we aren't accomplishing anything productive as far as I can tell.

[Heimdall]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Either way they can be rebuilt so it's not extinction when we're talking about synthetics. Stop being emo about it.

Using "emo" to put down the moral issue doesn't say much for your maturity.

Navel gazing about having to kill a fictional synthetic race because the writers force you to if you want to destroy the Reapers doesn't help things either.

Were you the one touching on realism and consequences earlier?

In a story. I can tell the difference between reality and fantasy. This is a story so there is no reason to get so worked up in reality over the railroaded death of a fictional race that can be rebuilt even if the individuals would not be the same.

I can tell the difference too.

I just feel that people who don't realize that there is a moral issue here are missing the point of the endings entirely.  That annoys me.

You can't rebuild the species.  You can create copies with similar attributes, but everything that made the geth who they were is gone.  If you were to do the same with humans, could you really claim to have brought back the species if all their culture and knowledge was gone?  It's a hollow solution.

[Aaleel]

But I'm done debating. It's obvious no one is going to change their mind on what constitutes life or Genocide.

[Heimdall]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Oh, please. You know what happens when he doesn't upload the code? They all die.

Uh yea, over a false dilemma Bioware created. Legion could have easily waited to see if Shepard could get the Quarians to back off before he uploaded the code.

In Legions experience, the Quarians have always attacked when they could win.  Legion's decision is much more logic than waiting to see if one individual can defy 300 years of statistical probability.

[Heimdall]

Aaleel wrote...

But I'm done debating. It's obvious no one is going to change their mind on what constitutes life or Genocide.

People actually think they can change people's mind in these threads?

[Rip504]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Also where do people get this "Innocent" ally line?

The Geth have been hostile for 300+ years of their 300+ year existence. Even on Rannoch the Geth are willing to kill the Quarians after being freed from the Reapers. Before they chose to help the Reapers commit the Genocide of every sentient race in the Galaxy,be it synthetic or organic.

technically not true. The Geth didn't go after the Quarians and only became hostile when Sovereign interfered and created the Heretics by altering their code.

So the Geth did not have an uprising on Rannoch in which they killed Billions? Can you prove the Heretics have existed for 300+ years? Were the Geth not willing to help the Reapers destroy all life in the name of their own survival?

Some of the Geth did these things but not all. It's not completely cut-and-dry.

My comment is the Geth can indeed become very Hostile and have shown signs of hostility throughout their existence. When faced with a conflict,the Geth on more then one occasion were willing to destroy all sentient life by aiding the Reapers. The Geth are the concrete in the Catalyst statements. When the synthetic Geth were faced with war,they were willing to destroy all organic life to survive. It has happen within our cycle. The Heretics chose to aid the Reapers before the code was installed. The True Geth also decided to help the Reapers before the code was uploaded. For 300 years any ship entering the veil was either destroyed or huskified. How long have the Heretics existed?

Is the rest of the galaxy fully aware of two separate factions of Geth? Do they understand the Geth have become hostile on more then one occasion? Are the Geth capable of doing what the Catalyst claims? Yes very much so,and they have tried to do so on two separate occasions.

[knightnblu]

wantedman dan wrote...

knightnblu wrote...
 
As a student of ethics 

No, you aren't.

knightnblu wrote...

This leaves destroy as the only viable option. 
 
That said, there is no rational basis to choose either control or synthesis because you cannot say that you trust the Catalyst unless you metagame it. Therefore, the only remaining option from a trust and ethical perspective is destroy even when you include the deaths of EDI and the Geth.

Included above are a few examples detailing your disgusting level of ignorance in terms of the relativistic nature of ethical pursuits. There is no "definite," categorical ethical standard, rather, ethics are fluid and changeable. Nice try on attepting to make yourself look good. Unfortunately, anyone with any semblance of education will see right through your sham.

I stopped reading responses to my position when they essentially boil down to "I reject your reality and substitute my own" and nebulous claims to a relativistic ethical reality. The first is self explanatory, the second is only slightly more interesting. You claim ethical relativity, but that begs the question relative to what? Funny how that slipped your scathing intellectual attack isn't it? Further you presume to know ethics, but seem shockingly ignorant of Mill and Bentham and their utilitarianism. You can look that up on Wikipedia later. Also you apparently have never studied formal logic or you wouldn't have fallen prey to the fallacy of the ad hominem.
 
Nice try for an amateur though.

[BatmanTurian]

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Either way they can be rebuilt so it's not extinction when we're talking about synthetics. Stop being emo about it.

Using "emo" to put down the moral issue doesn't say much for your maturity.

Navel gazing about having to kill a fictional synthetic race because the writers force you to if you want to destroy the Reapers doesn't help things either.

Were you the one touching on realism and consequences earlier?

In a story. I can tell the difference between reality and fantasy. This is a story so there is no reason to get so worked up in reality over the railroaded death of a fictional race that can be rebuilt even if the individuals would not be the same.

I can tell the difference too.

I just feel that people who don't realize that there is a moral issue here are missing the point of the endings entirely.  That annoys me.

You can't rebuild the species.  You can create copies with similar attributes, but everything that made the geth who they were is gone.  If you were to do the same with humans, could you really claim to have brought back the species if all their culture and knowledge was gone?  It's a hollow solution.

my last word. Regardless, the Geth are not gone forever, so they can't technically be extinct since they can be rebuilt. Whether they are the same or not is irrelevant when speaking about Synthetics. organics are more malleable, EDI was a true AI from the get-go, but the Geth were never true AI until Legion's platform and the Reaper code.

Sure they'll be dumber if they're rebuilt unless something can be learned from Reaper corpses. Just because Destroy destroys all the synthetics doesn't mean they can't be rebuilt eventually. I reject the idea that they are gone forever.

[Heimdall]

Aaleel wrote...

But you built the crucible so you're going to use it regardless because that was the plan of action agreed upon by all the races including the Geth who helped build it.  Whether or not you're certain it will kill the reapers is irrelevent.

Following the first point the crucible was built to stop the reapers and the reapers only, and your plan was to use it to kill the reapers.  If the someone told me that it was a chance the crucible may backfire and do damage to Earth I still would have used it.  Everyone, once again including the Geth signed on the plan to use as the only way to win.

And as for the last point.  You knowingly sent the people to their deaths, whether you fired a gun at them or not you knew you were killing them.  Like I said you're doing just what you're accusing other people of doing, but it's fine now because your using it to support your own viewpoint.

The Geth signed on for a chance at survival.  They didn't sign on to be annihilated down to the last subroutine.  If the geth agreed upon it knowing that its use would kill them, your point would have merit.

Sending military personel to their deaths to save their loved ones and their species, a sacrifice they are sworn to make, is a far cry from killing off an entire species that doesn't know your handing them a death sentence.  I'm sorry, but equivocating here is just ludicrous.

[Heimdall]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Either way they can be rebuilt so it's not extinction when we're talking about synthetics. Stop being emo about it.

Using "emo" to put down the moral issue doesn't say much for your maturity.

Navel gazing about having to kill a fictional synthetic race because the writers force you to if you want to destroy the Reapers doesn't help things either.

Were you the one touching on realism and consequences earlier?

In a story. I can tell the difference between reality and fantasy. This is a story so there is no reason to get so worked up in reality over the railroaded death of a fictional race that can be rebuilt even if the individuals would not be the same.

I can tell the difference too.

I just feel that people who don't realize that there is a moral issue here are missing the point of the endings entirely.  That annoys me.

You can't rebuild the species.  You can create copies with similar attributes, but everything that made the geth who they were is gone.  If you were to do the same with humans, could you really claim to have brought back the species if all their culture and knowledge was gone?  It's a hollow solution.

my last word. Regardless, the Geth are not gone forever, so they can't technically be extinct since they can be rebuilt. Whether they are the same or not is irrelevant when speaking about Synthetics. organics are more malleable, EDI was a true AI from the get-go, but the Geth were never true AI until Legion's platform and the Reaper code.

Sure they'll be dumber if they're rebuilt unless something can be learned from Reaper corpses. Just because Destroy destroys all the synthetics doesn't mean they can't be rebuilt eventually. I reject the idea that they are gone forever.

They'll be gone forever, that's just the truth.

You'll have a new synthetic race but you won't have geth.

[Heimdall]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Let's not forget part of the responsibility is on the Geth themselves and specifically Legion. He uploaded the Reaper code, so he doomed his own race. Instead of taking the short road and looking for a solution, they made a quick shortcut and it ended up biting them in the @**

Oh, please.  You know what happens when he doesn't upload the code?  They all die.

Regardless, what I'm saying is undeniable.

Not really, if the geth are still considered synthetic life without the upgrades, Destroy could still kill them regardless.

yeah, but they're either dead or they've uploaded the code by the end of the game so your point is moot.

Not really, it renders the idea that legion bears any sort of responsibility for this false.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 09 octobre 2012 - 12:24 .

[masster blaster]

Lord the answer is yes the geth would, and so would EDI. You see if they were with us at the end, they would say kill us if it means killing the Reapers. Hell everyone knows that inorder to kill the Reapers the cost was going to be high. Yet you would rather save them, then kill them.

Your afrid of killing the Geth and EDI because you are weak. You can't because the Catalyst is controlling your jugement, I mean were you even thinking about Synthesising the WHOLE galaxy?

No. We all were thinking Kill the Reapers, until the brat said " Ya your going to die, I am going to die, and the Synthetics are going to die if you pick Destroy.

Oh and at least I won't let the galaxy live in fear in Control, and Synthesis. I doubt anyone in the galaxy would befriend the Reapers, and Shepard's squad and friends would NEVER bow down, consider the REAPERS friends..

They know what the Reapers really are, and the fact that the Catalyst tells Shepard that they controlled TIM LEAVES MY TO BELIEVE HE IS LYING TO YOU. Honestly the Catalyst is out forhimself. You say the Catalyst can't lie I beg to differ.

EDI can lie. The Geth can lie. The Reapers can lie, hell even SHEPARD can lie.

" Why would I betray you Wrex?"

[Obadiah]

Wikipedia also has this on the doctrine of Military Necessity from Luis Moreno-Ocampo, Chief Prosecutor at the International Criminal Court:

Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)((i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality) (Article 8(2)((iv).

Article 8(2)((iv) criminalizes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
Article 8(2)((iv) draws on the principles in Article 51(5)( of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, but restricts the criminal prohibition to cases that are "clearly" excessive. The application of Article 8(2)((iv) requires, inter alia, an assessment of:
(a) the anticipated civilian damage or injury;
( the anticipated military advantage;
© and whether (a) was "clearly excessive" in relation to (.

Modifié par Obadiah, 09 octobre 2012 - 12:39 .

[Heimdall]

masster blaster wrote...

Lord the answer is yes the geth would, and so would EDI. You see if they were with us at the end, they would say kill us if it means killing the Reapers. Hell everyone knows that inorder to kill the Reapers the cost was going to be high. Yet you would rather save them, then kill them.

Your afrid of killing the Geth and EDI because you are weak. You can't because the Catalyst is controlling your jugement, I mean were you even thinking about Synthesising the WHOLE galaxy?

No. We all were thinking Kill the Reapers, until the brat said " Ya your going to die, I am going to die, and the Synthetics are going to die if you pick Destroy.

Oh and at least I won't let the galaxy live in fear in Control, and Synthesis. I doubt anyone in the galaxy would befriend the Reapers, and Shepard's squad and friends would NEVER bow down, consider the REAPERS friends..

They know what the Reapers really are, and the fact that the Catalyst tells Shepard that they controlled TIM LEAVES MY TO BELIEVE HE IS LYING TO YOU. Honestly the Catalyst is out forhimself. You say the Catalyst can't lie I beg to differ.

EDI can lie. The Geth can lie. The Reapers can lie, hell even SHEPARD can lie.

" Why would I betray you Wrex?"

You again?  Let me just say that you act like a spiteful child incapable of realizing just how many baseless assumptions you're statements stand on.  You are that, or a troll.

I don't bow, I simply follow the path of Legion, whose people you killed.

I'm curious, when have the Reapers lied to your face?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 09 octobre 2012 - 12:41 .

[masster blaster]

Also so Lord you believe peace can only be optained in Synthesis, I think not. Anderson died trying kill the Reapers, a lot of people died trying to protect EVERYONE from the Reapers, Kal Regger died trying to stop the Reapers, Primearc Vitous SON died to stop Cerberus, which worked for the Reapers.

So many cycles tried to fight the Reapers, but they ended up dead. I don't believe for a second that the cycles that were harvested would want to LIVE in the monster that killed their familys, only to become the monster that will do the same thing it did to their familys.

So I say Destroy the Reapers because they are monsters from Hell, and I will free them in Destroy, so ALL of the cycles, and everyone that died in this cycle can rest in PEACE.

[masster blaster]

Lord Legion hated the Reapers, and he only wanted to help Shepard and his people. You discrase Legion in Synthesis because I know Legion would tell Shepard " It's okay Shepard kill the Reapers."

And no I am not a troll, I AM an ITER. Something you will never understand so goodbye.

[Han Shot First]

Obadiah wrote...

Wikipedia also has this on the doctrine of Military Necessity from Luis Moreno-Ocampo, Chief Prosecutor at the International Criminal Court:

Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction) (Article 8(2)((i)) or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality) (Article 8(2)((iv).

Article 8(2)((iv) criminalizes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
Article 8(2)((iv) draws on the principles in Article 51(5)( of the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, but restricts the criminal prohibition to cases that are "clearly" excessive. The application of Article 8(2)((iv) requires, inter alia, an assessment of:
(a) the anticipated civilian damage or injury;
( the anticipated military advantage;
© and whether (a) was "clearly excessive" in relation to (.

Excellent post.

Article II of the United Nations' 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide also defines genocide as, "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."

The Geth being destroyed in collateral damage does not fit the legal definition of genocide. Those who claim it does, are misusing the term.

[Reorte]

Lord Aesir wrote...
They'll be gone forever, that's just the truth.

You'll have a new synthetic race but you won't have geth.

Why not? Kill all humans and then clone one from the remains and you've got humans again. Rebuild the geth and you've got the geth again. You'll have lost all the personality and possibly culture and knowledge, depending upon whether it was recorded somewhere separately or not and that's a big loss but it's not the loss of an entire species.

[dirtdiver32318]

BatmanTurian wrote...

dirtdiver32318 wrote...

Haha being emo I can not say that I have ever heard that one before.
When you think of it if they could rebuild the mass relays why would they just not build the geth and EDI all over again. there was peace between both of them why not just re build them as well.. Seems like a simple solution I'd say. Just sayin'

They're saying the newly constructred individuals would not be the same so those original individuals would be dead, hence genocide.

Yeah I guess. Hey think on the positive side everyone else Is still alive. Kill millions to Save trillions sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

[masster blaster]

Lord then go play ME again and see how Reaper lie to the Indoctrinated people.

[Heimdall]

masster blaster wrote...

Also so Lord you believe peace can only be optained in Synthesis, I think not. Anderson died trying kill the Reapers, a lot of people died trying to protect EVERYONE from the Reapers, Kal Regger died trying to stop the Reapers, Primearc Vitous SON died to stop Cerberus, which worked for the Reapers.

So many cycles tried to fight the Reapers, but they ended up dead. I don't believe for a second that the cycles that were harvested would want to LIVE in the monster that killed their familys, only to become the monster that will do the same thing it did to their familys.

So I say Destroy the Reapers because they are monsters from Hell, and I will free them in Destroy, so ALL of the cycles, and everyone that died in this cycle can rest in PEACE.

Putting words in other people's mouths does not help your cause, child.

All three endings result in peace and the end of the Reaper cycle.  I believe that.  Yes, many have died to prevent further loss of life.  I just don't feel killing more of my allies is an acceptable price when other options are available.  It tis' but my opinion.

[Reorte]

Han Shot First wrote...

The Geth being destroyed in collateral damage does not fit the legal definition of genocide. Those who claim it does, are misusing the term.

I've tried arguing that numerous times in the past. People are too keen to jump on to emotive terms to make their point and not too keen on concerning themselves with the real definitions.  The thinking seems to be that genocide involves killing lots of people, therefore killing lots of people is genocide.

[Heimdall]

masster blaster wrote...

Lord Legion hated the Reapers, and he only wanted to help Shepard and his people. You discrase Legion in Synthesis because I know Legion would tell Shepard " It's okay Shepard kill the Reapers."

And no I am not a troll, I AM an ITER. Something you will never understand so goodbye.

Legion understood that the Reapers have knowledge that can help people once stripped of Reaper control, and he was willing to sacrifice his existence to see that vision through.

If you're looking for an avatar of the synthesis ending, look no further.

[Heimdall]

masster blaster wrote...

Lord then go play ME again and see how Reaper lie to the Indoctrinated people.

I did not ask that.  You have yet to tell me when the Reapers lied to you.

[Heimdall]

Reorte wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
They'll be gone forever, that's just the truth.

You'll have a new synthetic race but you won't have geth.

Why not? Kill all humans and then clone one from the remains and you've got humans again. Rebuild the geth and you've got the geth again. You'll have lost all the personality and possibly culture and knowledge, depending upon whether it was recorded somewhere separately or not and that's a big loss but it's not the loss of an entire species.

Without it, that species is lost as a people, forever.  The loss is not something that can be recovered.

Without that knowledge, the geth are something else entirely