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Destroy is NOT genocide.


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#1151
BatmanTurian

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cyrexwingblade wrote...

Genocide having an element of intent is really not the point. If you believe the Geth are alive, and you believe it is still worth it for them to die so that the Reapers are wiped out, the double-genocide is still genocide... it's just necessary. If you want to argue that path. Debating what is or isn't genocide is just semantics for self-comfort. I say own the decision. "Yes, I killed them all. To save the rest of you. If you'd been standing there, it'd've been your call."

Me? I can't justify wiping out the Geth/Edi, so I don't choose Destroy.


I can't justify becoming a benevolent dictator or making a choice that affects more lives than in Destroy, so this is where we disagree. But guess what? I respect your decision (whatever it is) and I'm not going to call you scum and disgusting for making it.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 09 octobre 2012 - 04:56 .


#1152
Maxster_

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Again, I counter that it's a story in a game. Quit your insipid sermonizing. They really are just pixels with voice-overs.

And why do you care genocide that or not then? Not that another group of pixels(Shepard) is ever going to rl court, yes?


I don't actually care what it's called. That was never my argument. My argument is that they can be rebuilt anyway, so their species is not extinct.

Your argument is, because of them being characters in a game, this entire discussion is irrelevant.
So, what are you doing on game company forum discussing something that not even exists anyway?


The condemning of other players is irrelevant. Again, just as irrelevant for condeming FPS enthusiasts for the thousands or millions of npcs and players they killed. It's illogical moralizing about killing pixels in a game and characters in a story. It didn't actually happen. I'm asking people to wake up to reality.

So, any discussion about any work of fiction - movies, books, - is irrelevant. It never happened.
Raskolnikov never existed - what the point talking about Crime and Punishment?

#1153
BatmanTurian

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Maxster_ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Again, I counter that it's a story in a game. Quit your insipid sermonizing. They really are just pixels with voice-overs.

And why do you care genocide that or not then? Not that another group of pixels(Shepard) is ever going to rl court, yes?


I don't actually care what it's called. That was never my argument. My argument is that they can be rebuilt anyway, so their species is not extinct.

Your argument is, because of them being characters in a game, this entire discussion is irrelevant.
So, what are you doing on game company forum discussing something that not even exists anyway?


The condemning of other players is irrelevant. Again, just as irrelevant for condeming FPS enthusiasts for the thousands or millions of npcs and players they killed. It's illogical moralizing about killing pixels in a game and characters in a story. It didn't actually happen. I'm asking people to wake up to reality.

So, any discussion about any work of fiction - movies, books, - is irrelevant. It never happened.
Raskolnikov never existed - what the point talking about Crime and Punishment?


You're missing the point. People are judging each other for the choices they made in a video game. That's illogical baggage that should not be applied to this debate.

#1154
Maxster_

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Again, I counter that it's a story in a game. Quit your insipid sermonizing. They really are just pixels with voice-overs.

And why do you care genocide that or not then? Not that another group of pixels(Shepard) is ever going to rl court, yes?


I don't actually care what it's called. That was never my argument. My argument is that they can be rebuilt anyway, so their species is not extinct.

Your argument is, because of them being characters in a game, this entire discussion is irrelevant.
So, what are you doing on game company forum discussing something that not even exists anyway?


The condemning of other players is irrelevant. Again, just as irrelevant for condeming FPS enthusiasts for the thousands or millions of npcs and players they killed. It's illogical moralizing about killing pixels in a game and characters in a story. It didn't actually happen. I'm asking people to wake up to reality.

So, any discussion about any work of fiction - movies, books, - is irrelevant. It never happened.
Raskolnikov never existed - what the point talking about Crime and Punishment?


You're missing the point. People are judging each other for the choices they made in a video game. That's illogical baggage that should not be applied to this debate.

Nah, not for the choices. For the justifications of those choices.

#1155
BatmanTurian

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Maxster_ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Again, I counter that it's a story in a game. Quit your insipid sermonizing. They really are just pixels with voice-overs.

And why do you care genocide that or not then? Not that another group of pixels(Shepard) is ever going to rl court, yes?


I don't actually care what it's called. That was never my argument. My argument is that they can be rebuilt anyway, so their species is not extinct.

Your argument is, because of them being characters in a game, this entire discussion is irrelevant.
So, what are you doing on game company forum discussing something that not even exists anyway?


The condemning of other players is irrelevant. Again, just as irrelevant for condeming FPS enthusiasts for the thousands or millions of npcs and players they killed. It's illogical moralizing about killing pixels in a game and characters in a story. It didn't actually happen. I'm asking people to wake up to reality.

So, any discussion about any work of fiction - movies, books, - is irrelevant. It never happened.
Raskolnikov never existed - what the point talking about Crime and Punishment?


You're missing the point. People are judging each other for the choices they made in a video game. That's illogical baggage that should not be applied to this debate.

Nah, not for the choices. For the justifications of those choices.


Whatever, you're a troll. goodbye.

#1156
Samtheman63

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gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Noun:
The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.



Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"


genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd)

— n
the policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group



the destroy ending fits neither of these descritions, i cant be bothered to find anymore, its clearly not genocide

#1157
Maxster_

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Again, I counter that it's a story in a game. Quit your insipid sermonizing. They really are just pixels with voice-overs.

And why do you care genocide that or not then? Not that another group of pixels(Shepard) is ever going to rl court, yes?


I don't actually care what it's called. That was never my argument. My argument is that they can be rebuilt anyway, so their species is not extinct.

Your argument is, because of them being characters in a game, this entire discussion is irrelevant.
So, what are you doing on game company forum discussing something that not even exists anyway?


The condemning of other players is irrelevant. Again, just as irrelevant for condeming FPS enthusiasts for the thousands or millions of npcs and players they killed. It's illogical moralizing about killing pixels in a game and characters in a story. It didn't actually happen. I'm asking people to wake up to reality.

So, any discussion about any work of fiction - movies, books, - is irrelevant. It never happened.
Raskolnikov never existed - what the point talking about Crime and Punishment?


You're missing the point. People are judging each other for the choices they made in a video game. That's illogical baggage that should not be applied to this debate.

Nah, not for the choices. For the justifications of those choices.


Whatever, you're a troll. goodbye.

If you do not understand what debate is about, do not participate in it. :wizard:

#1158
T-Raks

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I can't believe that we are still debating whether destroying computers/robots/machines is genocide or not. What is the point of this never ending discussion? Though IMO it's absolutely no genocide (as you could probably guess out of my characterization of the Geth/EDI), it wouldn't change anything for my decision and I doubt it would change that of many others. Just a guess: To those of us that chose destroy, ridding the galaxy of the Reaper threat with the least risk of a return while every survivor is able to decide as much as possible about the own future is THAT important.

So do we have this discussion because more people actually want to pick destroy, but have become too attached to EDI and Legion? Or do people want to convince destroyers, that controlling the Reapers or synthesizing with them should have been our goal from the beginning? I really don't get that this discussion never ends.

Look: if my Shepard survives the destroy ending and the galactic community wants to put him in jail - I doubt that, but let's assume it - because they think he commited a genocide, then that's OK. Shepard's job was to defeat the Reapers if possible forever.

Modifié par T-Raks, 09 octobre 2012 - 05:52 .


#1159
wantedman dan

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Han Shot First wrote...

There isn't any spin involved. Refuse is cut and dry.

Your chose to lose the game. Your Shepard delivered a flawless victory to the Reapers, resulting in the destruction of every sapient space faring civilization in the galaxy, including humanity. Refuse is the Epic Fail ending.


Way to ignore that first sentence, sweetheart.

#1160
frostajulie

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It so funny how failing feels like winning in this game but winning feels like genocide, genetic rape or pure evil. failing feels like a win and winning feels like failure.

Yeah good game Bioware *insert eyeroll and middle finger here*

#1161
wantedman dan

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frostajulie wrote...

It so funny how failing feels like winning in this game but winning feels like genocide, genetic rape or pure evil. failing feels like a win and winning feels like failure.

Yeah good game Bioware *insert eyeroll and middle finger here*


Pretty much this.

#1162
drayfish

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Han Shot First wrote...

Sorry, but no.

Collateral damage would never get a conviction for genocide. It just does not simply meet the legal requirements, and those like yourself using the term genocide in this discussion either don't understand the term, or are intentionally misusing it to suit an agenda.

Again, Article II of the 1948 United Nations' Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines genocide as, "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."


The Oxford dictionary defines genocide as, "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group."

In other words genocide is the deliberate killing of a large group of people, because they're different in some way. The intent and deliberate nature of it are important, and Shepard's actions during the finale of Mass Effect 3 meet neither the legal nor the dictionary definitions for genocide.

There isn't any spin to either the legal or dictionary definitions of genocide, both of which don't support your argument.

You seem to have a problem seperating yourself from the fictional protagonist in the story, since you keep using personal pronouns (You, I, Me, ect) to refer to actions Shepard may have taken in the game. I think that might be linked to why you are getting so emotional about this issue. Let me reiterate: YOU ARE NOT SHEPARD.

With that out of the way, you are arguing that the collateral damage of Destroy is genocide while the collateral damage of Refuse is not. That doesn't make a lick of sense.

For the record I don't believe Refuse is genocide either, just the consequences of a tactically inept Shepard making a very bad choice that ends in a flawless Reaper victory. It isn't genocide, just colossal stupidity.


I'm sorry, but this is patently nonsensical.

You are offering definitions that actually prove your interpretation wrong, while loudly decrying anyone who interprets them appropriately. Even in the examples you have found the term does not imply a motivation of hate, merely intent. The extermination of a race (which happens to the Geth), occurs because they are targeted deliberately (which Shepard does). Nowhere in that definition does it dictate that Shepard has to despise the peoples that he/she has wiped from existence.

So, I'm really not sure what aspect of that direct correlation between genocide's definition and Shepard's actions you are hoping to contradict. Sure: Shepard didn't want to kill the Geth, but in Choosing Destroy he/she still did. And there were even other options available that did not include such extermination, so trying to argue that Shepard literally could not avoid it is overtly fatuous as well.

Again: your Shepard may not have wanted to commit genocide (I'm sure he/she didn't), but that's precisely what he/she did: knowingly (trying to weasel out of it by claiming the Catalyst may have been lying is cowardly) and with intent. Shepard wasn't cackling with glee to watch the Geth burn, but he/she was, by necessity, 'systemically' and 'deliberately' targeting them, because it was deemed to be 'for the greater good'.

It was a genocidal two for one: to wipe out the Reapers you have to wipe out the Geth. One genocide your Shepard no doubt felt was intentional; one I presume he/she thought was lamentable but necessary.

Trying to mealy mouth around the reality of these actions fundamentally undermines the fiction that the game is asking you to participate in and (again, in the fiction of this universe) is disrespectful to the victims – and I have to believe that your Shepard is not so woefully naive as to hide behind terms like 'collateral damage'  rather than acknowledge the unfortunate truth of his/her actions.

#1163
GreyLycanTrope

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Samtheman63 wrote...

gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Noun:
The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.


Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd)

— n
the policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group


the destroy ending fits neither of these descritions, i cant be bothered to find anymore, its clearly not genocide

Except you do do it deliberatly. The Geth are a nationality to say the least. Destroy kills all synthetics, and you pick the option knowing this. How is that not deliberate?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:17 .


#1164
Obadiah

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Actually, killing the Reapers is not genocide either since by any definition they are a legitimate military target.

#1165
pmac_tk421

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It is genocide since the geth are all wiped out in addition to the reapers. Plus also when you consider that the reapers will become docile in sythesis...

#1166
Guest_A Bethesda Fan_*

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Geth are non living, you can not kill that which has no life.

#1167
drayfish

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BatmanTurian wrote...

drayfish wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

All war is inhumane and all life is shades of grey. Welcome to reality.

'Hey, it's all just fiction anyway; they're just pixels and game code...' (so then why does it matter to you what their deaths are called?)

I find this all extraordinarily shocking, and frankly rather cowardly - particularly repeatedly calling anyone who wants to show the dead the respect they deserve by acknowledging their slaughter appropriately an 'emo'. ...I mean, seriously.

Again, I counter that it's a story in a game. Quit your insipid sermonizing. They really are just pixels with voice-overs. They actually don't even exist. I obviously would not make this choice in real life, because I'll probably never have to wipe out dogs and my best friend to kill a race of omnicidal, parasitic cyborgs. Would I make that choice in a game because it railroads me into it? Yes. If you can't realize that this is all fiction, you need to learn to separate reality and fantasy. Condemning others for an action taken in a role-playing game is like trying  FPS enthusiasts in a court of law for all the thousands or millions of npc and players they killed while they were playing video games.

This whole argument is overly emotional nonsense for this very reason, hence my reasons for saying Emo. Being emo is being overly-sensitive and full of angst. This definition fits the melodrama going on in this thread. None of this stuff is real. It didn't actually happen. I made a choice and I'm fine with it. You're not so you made another. I disagree with your choice but I'm not going to start calling you names for it. Seriously, it's just fiction and pixels. I feel like I'm the only sane person left on BSN here.


Sorry: you 'welcomed everyone to reality', but want to remind everyone that 'reality' is just all pixels and voice-overs and not to be paid attention to?

While obviously everyone in this forum is aware none of this is real life (I'm pretty sure that no one here is insane), fiction is how human beings play out moral quandaries, how they contextualise and explore their own psyche and understand themselves; what we hold sacred, what we hope to immortalise and perpetuate of ourselves. That is why we have carried narrative, in all its forms, with us from the very beginnings of civilisation. It has weight, and has significance. If you literally believe that there is no purpose in discussing the subject matter of a fiction then - firstly, I'm not precisely sure what of value you are hoping to find in the Story section of this forum - but secondly you seem to have metagamed your way out of the experience of the story itself - which is a shame (but frankly none of my business).

Also, I don't think the purpose of this thread - or what the majority of it has been, anyway, is to condemn players for making a particular choice (unfortunately recrimination and bile has been the bi-product of Bioware's nasty moral meat grinder ending, but I don't think that's the intent here), more it has been an effort to verbalise what the game itself (in all its pixels and graphics and lights) is trying to impress upon the audience: Destroy includes a component of Genocide; just as Synthesis contains a component of Eugenics; and Control contains Totalitarianism.

That is the ugly moral relativity Bioware wanted to (in your words) railroad their players into confronting. It is therefore unhelpful to pretend that these horrors are not part of the conclusion, because clearly the fiction believes they are a fundamental price that must be paid for peace.

Modifié par drayfish, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:37 .


#1168
Samtheman63

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Greylycantrope wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Noun:
The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.


Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd)

— n
the policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group


the destroy ending fits neither of these descritions, i cant be bothered to find anymore, its clearly not genocide

Except you do do it deliberatly. The Geth are a nationality to say the least. Destroy kills all synthetics, and you pick the option knowing this. How is that not deliberate?

i did it to destroy the reapers, the geth were an unfortunate sacrifice

and no, geth is not a nationality

Modifié par Samtheman63, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:47 .


#1169
GreyLycanTrope

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Samtheman63 wrote...
i did it to destroy the reapers, the geth were an unfortunate sacrifice

You still knew exactly what would happen to them when you shot the tube, and you still knowingly shot the tube, it's still deliberate.

#1170
Samtheman63

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Greylycantrope wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
i did it to destroy the reapers, the geth were an unfortunate sacrifice

You still knew exactly what would happen to them when you shot the tube, and you still knowingly shot the tube, it's still deliberate.

no, it isn't.  i dont trust the leader of my enemy beleive it or not

he also said i'd die, look how that turned out

#1171
AlanC9

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wantedman dan wrote...

You see, that's where you're wrong--you incorrectly assume that the deontological approach is all I used to weigh the decision. The situation is not black-and-white enough for one approach to take sole consideration.

I'm quite certain that the legacy I left in mine leads to a far brighter future than your obviously corruptible sense of purpose.


I'll bite. How would people surviving the Reaper War have turned out so much worse than people getting brutally exterminated?

#1172
Maxster_

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Samtheman63 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
i did it to destroy the reapers, the geth were an unfortunate sacrifice

You still knew exactly what would happen to them when you shot the tube, and you still knowingly shot the tube, it's still deliberate.

no, it isn't.  i dont trust the leader of my enemy beleive it or not

he also said i'd die, look how that turned out

You died. :wizard:

#1173
GreyLycanTrope

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Samtheman63 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
i did it to destroy the reapers, the geth were an unfortunate sacrifice

You still knew exactly what would happen to them when you shot the tube, and you still knowingly shot the tube, it's still deliberate.

no, it isn't.  i dont trust the leader of my enemy beleive it or not

he also said i'd die, look how that turned out

He never actually said you'd die, just that you a partly synthetics if you were considering your life without them. And if you don't believe your enemy why are you shooting the tube to begin with? He's the one who told you it would work.

#1174
Samtheman63

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Greylycantrope wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
i did it to destroy the reapers, the geth were an unfortunate sacrifice

You still knew exactly what would happen to them when you shot the tube, and you still knowingly shot the tube, it's still deliberate.

no, it isn't.  i dont trust the leader of my enemy beleive it or not

he also said i'd die, look how that turned out

He never actually said you'd die, just that you a partly synthetics if you were considering your life without them. And if you don't believe your enemy why are you shooting the tube to begin with? He's the one who told you it would work.

he discourages destroy.  the other two are supported by the reapers.

#1175
Wayning_Star

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Humans can be cloned as well, but...

Once a sentient creature/entity/being has a personality, then they're seperate and individualized. The geth refute that somewhat, but still, as Legion pertained, there was more going on with the Geth and certainly Edi that was more than just another Ai to reprogram. AS those of the MEU couldn't arbitrarily replace those units. They were individual, in the sense of their 'identity'. The idea of not commiting anything like/or related to 'genocide', is that you don't take away something from the individual, that you cannot give back. Even synthesis doen't take that level of individuality away.

What would be taken from Edi or the Geth, if destroyed completely?(completely doesn't happen with destroy, as the tech still remains, but the individual entities of Edi/Geth is wiped out. They, as machines could be reconstituted, but those individuals could not be.)