1304 réponses à ce sujet

[ghost9191]

Eterna5 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

@dreman9999


wait wait wait wait. it has no emotion. no where is it crying due to the loss. it knew of the loss but could not experience true emotion, only emulate. same as catalyst. which would probably be partly why the catlyst saw no problem with its solution, unlike we organics.

face it, shepalyst is going to turn into a evil tyrannical evil doer thing with a overwhelming synthetic force at its hands to do its bidding. wiping out anything that gets uppity and force everyone to worship it as some kind of ai god

Holy imagination and headcannon bro. 

But seriously, you have no proof, you're making wild claims with no evidence and it's silly. 

glad bsn has yet to find its sense of humor. thought we already settled this abit back.  although i do stand by that they emulate emotions but don't have them

[Fixers0]

Kabooooom wrote...

lol, what? You do know the definition of sentient, right? I had to point it out to someone else here the other day:

Sentient-

1: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>
2: aware
3 : finely sensitive in perception or feeling

You are sentient, your dog is sentient, and the geth are sentient. How do we know the geth are sentient? Because the story tells us they are.

No, they're merley sentient in your (and others) limited understanding and definition of sentience,  their artifical "sentience" was desgined to mimic our limited interperation of sentience rather then being a pefect copy.

And the Game also told us Cerberus was a rogue Alliance Black'ops., so yeah, i wouldn't trust everything the narratives specifies.    

Modifié par Fixers0, 08 octobre 2012 - 05:55 .

[Kabooooom]

although i do stand by that they emulate emotions but don't have them

Consciousness is most likely an emergent or epiphenomenon of brain function. A sociopath can feign emotion to deceive others, but if an AI were to have a program that functioned in the same manner as emotion does in organics, then that is the same as having emotion. Whether your awareness arises from neurons and electrochemistry, or from lines of programming in a computer - it is still awareness all the same.

No, they're merley sentient in your (and others) limited
understanding and definition of sentience,  their artifical "sentience"
was desgined to mimic our limited interperation of sentience rather then
being a pefect copy.

This makes zero sense. No where did anyone say it had to be a "perfect copy". Are the geth aware? Yes. Do they perceive? Yes. Is their consciousness different from that of organics? Yes.

But they still fit the definition of sentience, and you presented no argument that actually refutes that at all. To do so, you would have to refute any one of those three definitions - which you can't do, because the writers of ME clearly wanted to get the point across that the Geth were sentient.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 08 octobre 2012 - 05:57 .

[Eterna]

ghost9191 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

@dreman9999


wait wait wait wait. it has no emotion. no where is it crying due to the loss. it knew of the loss but could not experience true emotion, only emulate. same as catalyst. which would probably be partly why the catlyst saw no problem with its solution, unlike we organics.

face it, shepalyst is going to turn into a evil tyrannical evil doer thing with a overwhelming synthetic force at its hands to do its bidding. wiping out anything that gets uppity and force everyone to worship it as some kind of ai god

Holy imagination and headcannon bro. 

But seriously, you have no proof, you're making wild claims with no evidence and it's silly. 

glad bsn has yet to find its sense of humor. thought we already settled this abit back.  although i do stand by that they emulate emotions but don't have them

Synthetics emulate emotions by using positive and negative feedback. Edi says as much. They can program themselves to recieve positive feedback for doing certain actions.

It's logical that if Shepard rewrote the Catalyst it would recieve positive feedback from doing actions that your Shepard would have endorsed, such as being a Galatic Peacekeeper if you're paragon. 

[UrgentArchengel]

To me, it is in a way. I view the Geth as a people. Just because they are a different form of life, doesn't mean they aren't alive. I also see EDI as a person, and I care about her. If they die, and I feel sorrow, and pain over thier deaths, then they are alive, and it is genocide. Only something that's been alive can die; if they aren't alive then are simply destroyed. And yes, I am a Paragon who picks destroy every time.

[danby]

Tomb raider 2012(in feb of 2013).
The last of us
Bioshock infinite

Febuary is going to be a very busy month........oh were you guys still talking about the endings.........

[Jamie9]

ghost9191 wrote...
glad bsn has yet to find its sense of humor. thought we already settled this abit back.  although i do stand by that they emulate emotions but don't have them

Meh. Our emotions are controlled by chemicals in the brain. We're programmed just as much as the Geth, though it's more... subtle.

[Jamie9]

danby wrote...

Tomb raider 2012(in feb of 2013).
The last of us
Bioshock infinite

Febuary is going to be a very busy month........oh were you guys still talking about the endings.........

Dead Space 3? (please be a horror game!)

And maybe... maybe Beyond: Two Souls.

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

The Geth are not sentient, no.

:lol::lol::lol:

[Kabooooom]

Synthetics emulate emotions by using positive and negative feedback. Edi says as much. They can program themselves to recieve positive feedback for doing certain actions.

This is actually largely the manner that it is thought emotions are wired in the brain - so I ask again - what is the difference if this is accomplished in a biological system or in a synthetic one? It is the same damn thing.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Iconoclaste wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
(You put an AI in the middle of the desert. What will it "think" about?)
Why do you think an AI should act different than you? The middle of the dessert is most likely a very unhealthy location for any being not adapted to it. I can imagine that such a being does not prefer ("like" in humun terms) that situation. Chances are that it tries to go "home".

Of course, if you add biased parameters to the question, it makes different sense. But still, what would the AI, adapted or not, "think" with no interaction?

It's bloody hot there. There is no maintenance. Fear of non-functionality ("dieing" in human terms) takes over. It needs to get the hell out of there. And it will try to do so.

What you are doing is "avoiding the subject". What would an AI in a flat / safe / temperate but deserted area think, without interaction?

No. You do not like the answer. You gave information that the AI will use as a fact. It seems to me that you want to hear an answer that I did not give you. Let me put it another way: If your brain is isolated without any input from the outside and is kept alive then whatever it thinks depends at least on its history. There are lots of studies on the subject. What do you want to hear?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:00 .

[LilLino]

Synthesis clearly states that AIs are only truly alive after that green ending. Before that, they are highly advanced self-learning computers.

And you guys only care about them because of how cool Legion was in ME2.
ME3 Geth are nothing more than a race that wishes to survive and gain power at any cost. They only join Shepard out of gratitude and to honor Legion. Shepard gives them both Free will AND Reaper upgrades. No Reaper upgrades -> No alliance with Geth.
Destroy only makes us even and it's in a way less cruel and longsome way.

For the record, I wanted to give them a chance, but out of all the races that could die the Geth maybe Batarians/Vorcha are the ones I feel the least sorry about.

[.PHANTOM]

It's genocide geno-, from the Greek word for race or tribe, with -cide, from the Latin word for killing, so yeah the Reapers, Geth, and all other Synthetic races that are targeted can be labeled under victims of Genocide or forced sacrifices, and for the whole Geth can be rebuilt thing, their platforms can, but the newly created individual AI's can't, It's like trying to rebuild a humans mind, memories, ideals, rules, etc.


You can try to rebuild them, but they will not be the same thing, they most likely just be simple assistance mechs, they would be like the Husks, they have been rebuilt or repurposed from us, why do so many have a problem with Husks, the dead are "REPAIRED", sure they are not the same as they use to be, but their moving so whats the problem, TIM should have told the alliance I'm sure they would have given him an ample amount of volunteers, since they'll be the same afterwords, and if they die they'll just be Repaired. The Geth would share the same fate in my eyes, once living or active then destroy/killed and then Repaired into something simpler, pretty much the same thing in my opinion.

[ghost9191]

Eterna5 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

@dreman9999


wait wait wait wait. it has no emotion. no where is it crying due to the loss. it knew of the loss but could not experience true emotion, only emulate. same as catalyst. which would probably be partly why the catlyst saw no problem with its solution, unlike we organics.

face it, shepalyst is going to turn into a evil tyrannical evil doer thing with a overwhelming synthetic force at its hands to do its bidding. wiping out anything that gets uppity and force everyone to worship it as some kind of ai god

Holy imagination and headcannon bro. 

But seriously, you have no proof, you're making wild claims with no evidence and it's silly. 

glad bsn has yet to find its sense of humor. thought we already settled this abit back.  although i do stand by that they emulate emotions but don't have them

Synthetics emulate emotions by using positive and negative feedback. Edi says as much. They can program themselves to recieve positive feedback for doing certain actions.

It's logical that if Shepard rewrote the Catalyst it would recieve positive feedback from doing actions that your Shepard would have endorsed, such as being a Galatic Peacekeeper if you're paragon. 

point missed it, that is all fine, but the whole argument was that they do not have emotions . and being a galatic peace keeper sounds all well and good in theory , but nice having that whole freewill stripped away

and yes, shepard will use them to enforce peace, which is great, until you start controlling everyoens livves and they get fed up with it , only so far you can go with force, the reapers won't do what the shep catalyst wants them to until it uses them once. and that is strike fear in the eyes in order to maintain peace, , otherwise ppl would provoke attacks.

tried to word right

but yeah ., i get it but they still don't truly have emotions like organics, point of synthesis. and point i was making . simple

[Kabooooom]

Synthesis clearly states that AIs are only truly alive after that green ending. Before that, they are highly advanced self-learning computers.

Not really. You are using "alive" here as synonymous with conscious. EDI demonstrates multiple times throughout the story that she is conscious. Her statement of "now I feel truly alive" seems to be more of coming to a full understanding/experience of being human - which is what she was progressing towards throughout the entirety of ME3.

[Jamie9]

LilLino wrote...

Synthesis clearly states that AIs are only truly alive after that green ending. Before that, they are highly advanced self-learning computers.

And you guys only care about them because of how cool Legion was in ME2.
ME3 Geth are nothing more than a race that wishes to survive and gain power at any cost. They only join Shepard out of gratitude and to honor Legion. Shepard gives them both Free will AND Reaper upgrades. No Reaper upgrades -> No alliance with Geth.
Destroy only makes us even and it's in a way less cruel and longsome way.

For the record, I wanted to give them a chance, but out of all the races that could die the Geth maybe Batarians/Vorcha are the ones I feel the least sorry about.

No. I don't just care about synthetic life because of Legion. I've pondered a hypothetical future where synthetic life exists for at least over a decade before Legion even existed.

The Krogan only join if you give them the Genophage cure. The Turians only join if you help save their general. The Asari only join once the war has actually reached them - before that, they were content to hold back and watch the galaxy burn. The Salarians only send 1 fleet if the Genophage is cured. The Quarians only help you if you solve their war.

NONE of the races just help. Save perhaps the Batarians, ironically. And that's only because they don't have a home system to hide their forces in.

Also, that you are arrogant enough to measure up which species you think are worthy of living says a lot. All life is unique. To lose any is unforgivable.

Modifié par Jamie9, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:08 .

[Fixers0]

This makes zero sense. No where did anyone say it had to be a "perfect copy". Are the geth aware? Yes. Do they perceive? Yes. Is their consciousness different from that of organics? Yes.

I'm pretty sure their not aware of citadel conventions, but hey, leave that. But let me explain again, The Geth's idea of "sentience" is only a limited representation of what we organics percieve as sentience, it's also helps to know that their "sentience" was achieved through a laboratory.

But they still fit the definition of sentience, and you presented no argument that actually refutes that at all. To do so, you would have to refute any one of those three definitions - which you can't do, because the writers of ME clearly wanted to get the point across that the Geth were sentient.

Then by all means provide me inrefutable objective describtion of sentient beings.

[ghost9191]

LilLino wrote...

Synthesis clearly states that AIs are only truly alive after that green ending. Before that, they are highly advanced self-learning computers.

And you guys only care about them because of how cool Legion was in ME2.
ME3 Geth are nothing more than a race that wishes to survive and gain power at any cost. They only join Shepard out of gratitude and to honor Legion. Shepard gives them both Free will AND Reaper upgrades. No Reaper upgrades -> No alliance with Geth.
Destroy only makes us even and it's in a way less cruel and longsome way.

For the record, I wanted to give them a chance, but out of all the races that could die the Geth maybe Batarians/Vorcha are the ones I feel the least sorry about.

agree , the geth proved them selves a threat through out 3 games. legion was alright in ME2 but went against most of what it said in ME2 in ME3 ., so was a bit iffy. the ME2 legion wouldn't have accepted the reapers upgrades. the whole point of the heeretics was that, they wanted the upgrades whereas legions geth wanted to make their own future

so that is why i don't think they should be rebuilt, there is no telling what the geth would do if they survived in destroy. like javik says, they could just be eliminating the competition . but who knows


and i see the geth joining shepard as more of self preservation, if they don't they will be destroyed simple. so they choose to side with shepard, same as them siding with the reapers . there is more then self preservation though

Modifié par ghost9191, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:09 .

[Eterna]

ghost9191 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

@dreman9999


wait wait wait wait. it has no emotion. no where is it crying due to the loss. it knew of the loss but could not experience true emotion, only emulate. same as catalyst. which would probably be partly why the catlyst saw no problem with its solution, unlike we organics.

face it, shepalyst is going to turn into a evil tyrannical evil doer thing with a overwhelming synthetic force at its hands to do its bidding. wiping out anything that gets uppity and force everyone to worship it as some kind of ai god

Holy imagination and headcannon bro. 

But seriously, you have no proof, you're making wild claims with no evidence and it's silly. 

glad bsn has yet to find its sense of humor. thought we already settled this abit back.  although i do stand by that they emulate emotions but don't have them

Synthetics emulate emotions by using positive and negative feedback. Edi says as much. They can program themselves to recieve positive feedback for doing certain actions.

It's logical that if Shepard rewrote the Catalyst it would recieve positive feedback from doing actions that your Shepard would have endorsed, such as being a Galatic Peacekeeper if you're paragon. 

point missed it, that is all fine, but the whole argument was that they do not have emotions . and being a galatic peace keeper sounds all well and good in theory , but nice having that whole freewill stripped away

and yes, shepard will use them to enforce peace, which is great, until you start controlling everyoens livves and they get fed up with it , only so far you can go with force, the reapers won't do what the shep catalyst wants them to until it uses them once. and that is strike fear in the eyes in order to maintain peace, , otherwise ppl would provoke attacks.

tried to word right

but yeah ., i get it but they still don't truly have emotions like organics, point of synthesis. and point i was making . simple

The Shepalyst doesn't police people, It just helps rebuild and prevents massive wars like a future Krogan rebellion. It's not like Reapers are stationed in every community stopping Drug rings and theivery. 

[Mcfly616]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

I dont care if it had a soul or not. It's still not genocide.

Care to explain?

sure

My Shepard's goal since ME1 was to Destroy the Reapers. I did not waver or second-guess myself at the very last minute when my one and only chance of victory was at hand. I knew since the beginning that there would be tremendous sacrifice. However, I didn't install Reaper upgrades in the Geth. I had no way of knowing Destroy would destroy all Reaper tech until it was time to make a decision. It's not like I threw all the Geth in prison camps and proceeded to methodically exterminate them. They were collateral damage from my decision to whipe out the Reapers. By a set of unforeseen circumstances, they were effected by the Crucible. Victory at any cost.....even though synthetic life will occur again. So, YAY!!! lol

[Kabooooom]

i get it but they still don't truly have emotions like organics, point of synthesis. and point i was making . simple

This is sort of like the soul argument, but reversed. Ie- no one can define a soul, and you can't even prove it exists if you could, because it is a scientifically meaningless concept.

But emotions are not - how does one define an "organic" emotion? At a very simplistic level, it is just a feedback circuit in the brain. Increase serotonin - experience joy. Decrease it - experience sadness, to use just one example. The dopamine circuit is another perfect example of how emotions reinforce behavior through neurochemistry.

Does it matter if this is accomplished with neurotransmitters and the movement of ions across a semi-permeable membrane? If you created the same circuit via computer programming, why would it not be the same? It is a mechanical system in both cases. There is nothing mysterious or supernatural about the organic one. So, what does it matter?

Then by all means provide me inrefutable objective describtion of sentient beings.

I already did. That definition is the scientific definition, and it is used to explore questions of sentience in non-human animals. It is objectively defined, and objectively useful. Do you disagree that the definition of sentience is the one that I presented? If so, then present an equally valid and equally useful definition. I'd love to hear it.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:11 .

[Eterna]

Mcfly616 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

I dont care if it had a soul or not. It's still not genocide.

Care to explain?

sure

My Shepard's goal since ME1 was to Destroy the Reapers. I did not waver or second-guess myself at the very last minute when my one and only chance of victory was at hand. I knew since the beginning that there would be tremendous sacrifice. However, I didn't install Reaper upgrades in the Geth. I had no way of knowing Destroy would destroy all Reaper tech until it was time to make a decision. It's not like I threw all the Geth in prison camps and proceeded to methodically exterminate them. They were collateral damage from my decision to whipe out the Reapers. By a set of unforeseen circumstances, they were effected by the Crucible. Victory at any cost.....even though synthetic life will occur again. So, YAY!!! lol

That's akin to saying all Humans being killed is okay because somewhere in the galaxy other organic life will eventually evolve. 

[Jamie9]

Eterna5 wrote...
That's akin to saying all Humans being killed is okay because somewhere in the galaxy other organic life will eventually evolve.

It's also okay to wipe out an entire race, just so long as it's a side effect of wiping out another entire race.

[Iconoclaste]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

No. You do not like the answer. You gave information that the AI will use as a fact. It seems to me that you want to hear an answer that I did not give you. Let me put it another way: If your brain is isolated without any input from the outside and is kept alive then whatever it thinks depends at least on its history. There are lots of studies on the subject. What do you want to hear?

No interaction, no "need" to satisfy, no danger around, what would an AI think about, yet you purposefully put this AI in a context forcing that AI into making a decision. I did not say the AI was running on batteries or felt rust attacks on its circuitry, but you seem to try to take the subject on any grounds to avoid the question, which is simple. Calling for "studies" is another way to try to gain credit, but that still doesn't answer the question. The AI did not sustain any "brain damaged", it is perfectly healthy, just try to make abstraction of all that could come up to your mind to divert you from answering just the question I asked, if you can.

[ghost9191]

@Etarna5

your headcanon is no more valid then mine. and that is what i mean. when you have someone watching over you like that how would you grow, them solving your problems and such , rebuilding for you. is it not better to have the races learn and rebuild on their own , eh this is off topic though .