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[Lithuasil]

In a lot of threads recently, people have been expressing the desire to play are pure "force of good in a struggle against evil", and subsequently want to return to being a warden. While that motive in itself is highly questionable, and I'd lie if I claimed to respect such desires, I have to ask - if that's what you want, why would you want to play a grey warden of all things?
Based on what I've seen of the DA-Verse (i.e no books/comics) even the Tevinter-Slavers are more qualified to be called "pure good". The wardens (as presented to me in two games) are a parasitic and completely useless army of liars that in it's history committed outright genocide out of no other motive then pure selfishness. Why would you call these people in any way 'good'?

(And by extension of my question, if someone from the writing staff stumbles across this post - is this portrayal of the wardens intentional or not, and am I lacking some critical information?) 


Edit, since it's apparently less self evident then I thought:


The number of "wardens" (i.e people infected by the bloodmagic-y warden taint) that are required to sucessfully end a blight is precisely... one per blight. You need one wounded soldier who contracted the taint to 'volunteer' prior to the battle, and nothing else. If the wardens actually shared their secrets.
Beyond being a possible host, the warden-taint only gives you an extremely-short range sense to vaguely recognise the presence of the least stealthy enemy imaginable. (Also constant nightmares and a significantly decreased lifespan)
The Wardens, as an organization are therefore utterly unnecessary - and their continued existence is fueld with the lives of the innocent. For a thousand years, they'vespun a net of lies to bait people into volunteering, and have amassed considerable wealth and worldy power by pretending to be necessary. And as we've whitnessed, they will murder anyone threatening the lie without the feintest shred of hesitation.

I've never seen a joining involving more then three people, and I've never seen one where the poison didn't kill atleast one person. Now based on the wardens omnipresence, them holding several cities and being perceived as such a massive threat by loghain (worse then loosing half the army), we can take a rough guess about their population. Assuming they don't go for children, and the decrease of life-span being noticeable in medieval times, they need to replenish their entire (at least four figure) population every generation or so. Add in the many warden falling in battle, that need to be replaced, and the many people dying of the taint, that the wardens refuse to save, and we get to the seven figure body-count. (Not in battle I remind you, purely by blackmail, poison, murder and neglect)

And there's really only one motive I can imagine for all this - selfishness. If the wardens shared their secrets, they'd admit to being essentially high functioning darkspawn - and they'd loose their wealth and power, and most likely be persecuted like mages or even killed outright. So in order to preserve their own measly lives, they infect countless others, and murder anyone that poses a threat.

Modifié par Lithuasil, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:45 .

[thats1evildude]

They oppose the darkspawn, who represent the greatest evil in Thedas. That said, the Grey Wardens are willing to go to some very far extremes in opposing the darkspawn.

[Lithuasil]

thats1evildude wrote...

They oppose the darkspawn, who represent the greatest evil in Thedas. That said, the Grey Wardens are willing to go to some very far extremes in opposing the darkspawn.

Everyone opposes the darkspawn - everyone but the grey wardens manages to do so without a thousand years of deceit and a seven figure bodycount of murdered innocents.

[Sylvianus]

Lol. I really think you misunderstood what people said on this board ...

Also : ", useless, pure selfishness. " Really ? The Grey Wardens ? Yeah.You lost me. Indeed, it sounds you are lacking some critical information. Your post is so full of bul****, I won't even bother. Have fun !

[Vandicus]

Lithuasil wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

They oppose the darkspawn, who represent the greatest evil in Thedas. That said, the Grey Wardens are willing to go to some very far extremes in opposing the darkspawn.

Everyone opposes the darkspawn - everyone but the grey wardens manages to do so without a thousand years of deceit and a seven figure bodycount of murdered innocents.

Only the Grey Wardens oppose the Darkspawn successfully, that is, by stopping the Blight.

What's the big deceit and seven figure body count from?

[jennamarae]

Lithuasil wrote...
The wardens (as presented to me in two games) are a parasitic and completely useless army of liars that in it's history committed outright genocide out of no other motive then pure selfishness.

Would you mind elaborating on how you came to this conclusion? I don't recall any of this from the games, or the books for that matter, and am wondering if I missed something.

[thats1evildude]

Who's everyone else? You mean the dwarves of Orzammar, who practice a brutal caste system and where nobles spill each other's blood every day? You mean Ferelden, where the king's general murdered all the Grey Wardens in the middle of a Blight? You mean Orlais, which had conquered Ferelden only a couple of decades before and practices political backstabbing as a game of intrigue?

"Everyone else" only opposes the darkspawn when they have to, ie. when the monsters are on their front steps. So yeah, the Grey Wardens lie and occasionally murder innocents to achieve their goals. But if it wasn't for them, the darkspawn would be controlling the continent right now.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:37 .

[Wifflebottom]

Big problem with your original post: When have you seen a Tevinter Slaver do anything good? Now when have you seen a Grey Warden do something good? Unless you think sacrificing slaves to make yourself more powerful to control and kill innocents is a good thing then the Grey Wardens are waaaay better. Without Grey Wardens Blights would continue and Thedas would be destroyed.

[garrusfan1]

Uh the wardens give up everything and a lot of time go into the deep roads many times in their life to fight darkspawn and really don't have families and don't live long lives and have a good chance of dying to become a warden. So how can you say they are worse then tevinter who sacrifice people to practice blood magic and for fun. The wardens (with the exception of the anderfells) are in no way shape or form are selfish yes they go to extremes but they have to

[Monica21]

Genocide? How do you figure that?

[garrusfan1]

Wait is this a troll post

[Lithuasil]

Vandicus wrote...

Only the Grey Wardens oppose the Darkspawn successfully, that is, by stopping the Blight.

What's the big deceit and seven figure body count from?

I'll edit that into the op.

[hexaligned]

Despite how weak and ineffectual the Darkspawn seem through the lens of game mechanics. At least according to the Lore, the Wardens are the only ones who can actually defeat them, and stop a blight. As I understand it anyways. So regardless of what else they may be, the Wardens are necessary.

[Lithuasil]

relhart wrote...

Despite how weak and ineffectual the Darkspawn seem through the lens of game mechanics. At least according to the Lore, the Wardens are the only ones who can actually defeat them, and stop a blight. As I understand it anyways. So regardless of what else they may be, the Wardens are necessary.

*one* warden per blight is necessary, as I mentioned in the op. Maintaining a constant population of 'tainted' wardens serves no purpose other then to keep up the charade.

[RazorrX]

 Yeah, I am at a loss here for where you came up with that.  Now I can agree that the Wardens are not lilly white, but they are more dove grey than charcol grey.  I  know that they have secrets ( such as corphy, and knowing where all of the old gods are buried and what not), but they do protect humanity from the blight, paying a heavy price to do it.

in the calling the architect manipulates the wardens who suffer from the greatest corruption, but several refuse because it is a warden's duty to protect humanity from the blight - not just end them.

I wardens keep you hear of Sophia Dryden, a noble of ferelden who lost an attempt to take the throne, became a warden to escape death, and tried to usurp the throne again.  That was her doing, not the wardens.  Her charisma led her men and women to follow her. 

So where are you getting this info?

[Vandicus]

They don't need volunteers, they can conscript. It provides further immunity to the taint, which is necessary for anyone who wishes to fight darkspawn more than once or twice. The Wardens have not actually amassed much in the way of wealth or power, mostly enough to maintain a small military force.

Additionally, though its not reflected in game mechanics, the taint actually makes the person considerably stronger, and very very hard to kill. Wounds that would kill a normal person twice over will not phase a Darkspawn, nor would they phase a Grey Warden.

Loghain is not paranoid about the Grey Wardens per se, but about the Orlesians.

Also your math is off, you'd be looking at a five figure body count, not a count in the millions. Almost all of those people would've died of old age anyways by this point.

[jennamarae]

Lithuasil wrote...

*one* warden per blight is necessary, as I mentioned in the op. Maintaining a constant population of 'tainted' wardens serves no purpose other then to keep up the charade.

And what happens if that one warden is killed prior to reaching the archdemon? Do we rush to infect someone else with the taint, hope that they survive the ritual, and then hope they make it to the archdemon before they get killed as well? And what of the thousands the darkspawn kill while that one person is participating in a ritual and trying to make it to the archdemon? Shall we write them off as acceptable losses because there should only be one grey warden in existence at any given time?

I'm not entirely convinced you've thought this all the way through.

[Lithuasil]

jennamarae wrote...

And what happens if that one warden is killed prior to reaching the archdemon? Do we rush to infect someone else with the taint, hope that they survive the ritual, and then hope they make it to the archdemon before they get killed as well? And what of the thousands the darkspawn kill while that one person is participating in a ritual and trying to make it to the archdemon? Shall we write them off as acceptable losses because there should only be one grey warden in existence at any given time?

I'm not entirely convinced you've thought this all the way through.

The one infected person need not participate in the fighting at all. It's entirely possible to bring an archdemon to it's knees as a conventional soldier, to detain it via magic and even to outright destroy it's body via conventional means - the dark ritual pretty much proves, that there only needs to be someone in the vicinity to take in the soul - morrigans unborn child doesn't actually strike the killing blow itself.
Plus - the Grey Warden potion cures the taint - so during a blight, there will be plenty supply of warriors willing to take the risk to escape certain death. None of this requires or justifies maintaining a constant population of wardens throughout times that aren't a blight, at the cost of literally hundreds of thousands of lives.

[Lithuasil]

Vandicus wrote...

Additionally, though its not reflected in game mechanics, the taint actually makes the person considerably stronger, and very very hard to kill. Wounds that would kill a normal person twice over will not phase a Darkspawn, nor would they phase a Grey Warden.
.

Now this is new information - may I ask for a source on that? Because that'd explain some things, but I've never heard of that before.

[Vandicus]

Lithuasil wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Additionally, though its not reflected in game mechanics, the taint actually makes the person considerably stronger, and very very hard to kill. Wounds that would kill a normal person twice over will not phase a Darkspawn, nor would they phase a Grey Warden.
.

Now this is new information - may I ask for a source on that? Because that'd explain some things, but I've never heard of that before.

Avernus, when asked, states that the darkspawn taint conferred by the Joining contains incredible powers, with the ability to sense darkspawn as the least of such. He speculated that applications of energy and blood could unlock these powers, and endeavored to replicate the effects alchemically — leading to the Power of Blood talent tree.

From this part of the DA wiki

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grey_Wardens



I'm pretty sure its brought up in other locations however. The darkspawn being super tough certainly is.


*EDIT

I should also bring up that the Joining we saw in DA:O had an abnormally high casualty rate. Its not very common for people to try to back out at the last second, and the people the Wardens choose are usually exceptional already(that and oftentimes doomed to die in another fashion already, such as by execution for some crime).

Modifié par Vandicus, 08 octobre 2012 - 02:11 .

[garrusfan1]

OP in response to only needing one person with the taint think about the warden in DAO I think riordan was his name. He fell and died and then the whole battle would have been pointless

[Lithuasil]

Vandicus wrote...

Avernus, when asked, states that the darkspawn taint conferred by the Joining contains incredible powers, with the ability to sense darkspawn as the least of such. He speculated that applications of energy and blood could unlock these powers, and endeavored to replicate the effects alchemically — leading to the Power of Blood talent tree.

I haven't played the Wardens Keep - but doesn't that mean that those powers aren't there yet, and *may* be unlocked via liberal application of rightfully forbidden magic?
Because you'd think if being a warden actually gave you super powers right of the bat, people would mention that *a lot* more.

garrusfan1 wrote...

OP in response to only needing one person with the taint think about the warden in DAO I think riordan was his name. He fell and died and then the whole battle would have been pointless

                                                       
Maybe not let that one person jump of a tower onto a flying dragon then?

Modifié par Lithuasil, 08 octobre 2012 - 02:11 .

[Monica21]

Lithuasil wrote...
The one infected person need not participate in the fighting at all. It's entirely possible to bring an archdemon to it's knees as a conventional soldier, to detain it via magic and even to outright destroy it's body via conventional means - the dark ritual pretty much proves, that there only needs to be someone in the vicinity to take in the soul - morrigans unborn child doesn't actually strike the killing blow itself.

How do you expect the Archdemon to be held while it waits for the Chosen One? How do you even know where you're going to end up fighting the Archdemon? If it had shown up at Ostagar it might have landed in the valley with the rest of the darkspawn or it might have landed on the top of the Tower of Ishal. You can't have one Warden running around until the Archdemon is ready. You're not exactly waiting for the timer to go off on a turkey here. You're fighting an immensely powerful, ancient, intelligent beast.

Plus - the Grey Warden potion cures the taint - so during a blight, there will be plenty supply of warriors willing to take the risk to escape certain death. None of this requires or justifies maintaining a constant population of wardens throughout times that aren't a blight, at the cost of literally hundreds of thousands of lives.

The Joining doesn't always cure the taint. Bethany's cure was a "maybe" not a "definitely."

And I absolutey disagree that it doesn't justify maintaining a population of Wardens. Wardens are the only ones who know when an Archdemon awakes and they are therefore the only ones who know when a Blight is coming. Without a Warden in Ferelden, the darkspawn could easily have overrun half the country before anyone actually knew about it, considering how remote their chosen location was to show themselves.

[jennamarae]

Lithuasil wrote...

The one infected person need not participate in the fighting at all. It's entirely possible to bring an archdemon to it's knees as a conventional soldier, to detain it via magic and even to outright destroy it's body via conventional means - the dark ritual pretty much proves, that there only needs to be someone in the vicinity to take in the soul - morrigans unborn child doesn't actually strike the killing blow itself.

Except that the ritual is the only reason the archdemon's soul went into the child instead of the nearest grey warden or darkspawn, which Riordan explicitly states will happen when the archdemon is slain. It normally goes to the nearest darkspawn, but if a grey warden strikes the killing blow the archdemon's soul goes to that grey warden instead.

Prior to Morrigan telling the Warden on the eve of battle that she could do such a thing, the dark ritual was an unheard of option. All the knowledge the grey wardens have, that the Warden in DAO became privy to, states that the only way to destroy the archdemon is for a grey warden to make the killing blow. Unless Alistair/Loghain/the Warden tell the rest of the grey wardens about the dark ritual, it will continue to be an unknown option and in truth might never be accomplished again if Morrigan and Flemeth are the only mages who know how to accomplish it. And I'm not entirely convinced that trapping an old god's soul in the body of an infant is the best course of action, but that's a topic for a different thread.

Regardless, Riordan has no reason to lie about what happens when an archdemon is slain so we must assume he is telling the truth based on the knowledge of archdemons that the grey wardens have gained over the course of several blights. Any future blights will require a grey warden to strike the killing blow unless Flemeth and/or Morrigan are around to do the dark ritual again or decide out of the goodness of their hearts to share it with others so that it can be repeated in the future.

Plus - the Grey Warden potion cures the taint - so during a blight, there will be plenty supply of warriors willing to take the risk to escape certain death. None of this requires or justifies maintaining a constant population of wardens throughout times that aren't a blight, at the cost of literally hundreds of thousands of lives.

The taint is certain death within a few decades if not immediately. There is plenty of justification for maintaining a constant warden population, not least of which is being prepared for a blight. Waiting til the last minute just ensures that more innocent people die, as happened in Fereldan with the grey wardens having a minimal presence due to only being permitted back in the country relatively recently. Had the Orlesian grey wardens arrived prior to the battle at Ostagar, the blight may very well have been contained and ended before half of Fereldan was decimated by darkspawn.