243 réponses à ce sujet

[Quicksilver26]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

The society in Thedas is nothing like the Medieval as well, so I don't get your point. It's not a real country, it's a fictional world that resembled Medieval, so you can't say that it's follow the customs there. David Gaider is the one who knows what the society in Thedas is really like. What you stated is just speculation of how the society there works, not how it actually works. What believable in your eyes may not be the same as someone else. Of course if you're just gonna ignore my examples and go with whatever you think then suit yourself. Keep perceiving the world of Thedas however you want. It doesn't make what you think as canon, but by all means, keep doing it. It's a fictional world in the first place. The ones who have anything to say about how that society operate is Bioware, not you. How you think Thedas should be is fan-cannon. It may be different in actuality. It's a world inspired by Medieval but it doesn't set in Medieval. The rules are different. That's all there is to it.

QFT

[JediMB]

People have this habit of saying "unrealistic" when what they mean is "statistically improbable".

Is it improbable that your ragtag group of eight warriors/rogues/mages ends up with four bisexuals? Going by our world's standards, sure. But then it would also be a statistical improbability that both the Warden-Commander and the Champion are gay, and I don't think anyone would want that restricted simply to preserve "realism".

Now, at the end of the day what matters most about the companions is that they're good characters, but with that said I can't help wishing some western developer would include other types of minorities from time to time. Like a transgender or transsexual companion, or maybe a pan-romantic asexual character, or a truly androgynous (in both body and voice) love interest.

They may not be the sorts of characters usually asked for, but it would be interesting to hear fans' reactions to them. I think a lot of people aren't as accepting/tolerant as they imagine themselves to be, but would love to be proven wrong at least within the context of an RPG.

EDIT: Well, this post was sort of a reply to something quite a few pages back, and I didn't realize there were more posts afterwards. Oops.

Modifié par JediMB, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:59 .

[Battlebloodmage]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The society in Thedas is nothing like the Medieval as well, so I don't get your point. It's not a real country, it's a fictional world that resembled Medieval, so you can't say that it's follow the customs there.

Already answered that.

Battlebloodmage wrote...
Of course if you're just gonna ignore my examples and go with whatever you think then suit yourself.

I did not ignore your examples. I never stated that there is no such thing as a homosexual couple in Thedas.

Battlebloodmage wrote...]
What you stated is just speculation of how the society there works, not how it actually works.

We've seen quite a bit of Thedas. To abstract from that is not invalid.

What believable in your eyes may not be the same as someone else.

Following that logic, nothing could ever be called unrealistic or implausible.

The ones who have anything to say about how society operated is Bioware, not you.

I'm examining what Bioware has said so far. They can of course insert anything they want in their world. Whether what they insert is sensible, remains to be seen.

RinjiRenee wrote...
.... Yes, yes it does.  Given what Mr. Gaider said, I'm almost 100% certain now that they are favoring their approach over something that is more "realistic."

They will do what they favor, obviously. Yet again: doesn't mean it's what they should do, as that is determined by what is to be achieved.

It "doesn't mean it's what they should do" or what YOU don't think they should do? None of what Bioware said have anything to do with the world of Thedas and the numbers of homosexuality in it. You're just based what you think on the number of homosexual couples in the game which may not be entirely accurate since not a lot of them will jump out and say how homosexual they are to a random stranger. I don't mind people speculate what Bioware's intends are, but it does irritate me a bit when they present their speculation as facts. The ones who decide what sensible is not you but the writers of DA universe. You may or may not agree with it, but it doesn't make it any less sensible to me or any other fans out there.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:43 .

[Satyricon331]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
They will do what they favor, obviously. Yet again: doesn't mean it's what they should do, as that is determined by what is to be achieved.

Even if we take the percentage of heterosexuals in the population as this or that, you have yet to provide any argument at all why the sample of people that the LI companions represent "should" be a "plausible" sample.  Your premise here implicitly simply seems to be that Bioware should cater to your enjoyment of your sense of plausibility over player' enjoyment of romances. 

As it happens, I'd agree that egalitarian societies were unlikely in medieval times, though I mean "egalitarian" in its usual economic sense.  You used the word seemingly to mean more social inclusion of minorities (as opposed to inclusion of economic classes like peasants), but then disavowed that implication when people took it to mean gays, so I think you should be clearer what you mean by an "egalitarian's view on social issues."

[Overlord_Mephist]

JediMB wrote...


Now, at the end of the day what matters most about the companions is that they're good characters, but with that said I can't help wishing some western developer would include other types of minorities from time to time. Like a transgender or transsexual companion, or maybe a pan-romantic asexual character, or a truly androgynous (in both body and voice) love interest.

A trap would be nice, would probably be the first time I beat it(the game...lol) as a male character.  Though I can't think of any english VAs that can pull off the androgynous voice.

Will never happen but one can dream 

[Quicksilver26]

JediMB wrote...

People have this habit of saying "unrealistic" when what they mean is "statistically improbable".

Is it improbable that your ragtag group of eight warriors/rogues/mages ends up with four bisexuals? Going by our world's standards, sure. But then it would also be a statistical improbability that both the Warden-Commander and the Champion are gay, and I don't think anyone would want that restricted simply to preserve "realism".

Now, at the end of the day what matters most about the companions is that they're good characters, but with that said I can't help wishing some western developer would include other types of minorities from time to time. Like a transgender or transsexual companion, or maybe a pan-romantic asexual character, or a truly androgynous (in both body and voice) love interest.

They may not be the sorts of characters usually asked for, but it would be interesting to hear fans' reactions to them. I think a lot of people aren't as accepting/tolerant as they imagine themselves to be, but would love to be proven wrong at least within the context of an RPG.

EDIT: Well, this post was sort of a reply to something quite a few pages back, and I didn't realize there were more posts afterwards. Oops.

Mr.gider once said that if he was going to do a transgender character he'd want to do it right and not just have it be a token put in it just to have it. so maybe sometime down the line it might happen and if it does it would be the coolest  thing ever 

[Battlebloodmage]

Overlord_Mephist wrote...

JediMB wrote...


Now, at the end of the day what matters most about the companions is that they're good characters, but with that said I can't help wishing some western developer would include other types of minorities from time to time. Like a transgender or transsexual companion, or maybe a pan-romantic asexual character, or a truly androgynous (in both body and voice) love interest.

A trap would be nice, would probably be the first time I beat it(the game...lol) as a male character.  Though I can't think of any english VAs that can pull off the androgynous voice.

Will never happen but one can dream 

Let's ask Justin Bieber to see if he's available for recording.

[Battlebloodmage]

Quicksilver26 wrote...

JediMB wrote...

People have this habit of saying "unrealistic" when what they mean is "statistically improbable".

Is it improbable that your ragtag group of eight warriors/rogues/mages ends up with four bisexuals? Going by our world's standards, sure. But then it would also be a statistical improbability that both the Warden-Commander and the Champion are gay, and I don't think anyone would want that restricted simply to preserve "realism".

Now, at the end of the day what matters most about the companions is that they're good characters, but with that said I can't help wishing some western developer would include other types of minorities from time to time. Like a transgender or transsexual companion, or maybe a pan-romantic asexual character, or a truly androgynous (in both body and voice) love interest.

They may not be the sorts of characters usually asked for, but it would be interesting to hear fans' reactions to them. I think a lot of people aren't as accepting/tolerant as they imagine themselves to be, but would love to be proven wrong at least within the context of an RPG.

EDIT: Well, this post was sort of a reply to something quite a few pages back, and I didn't realize there were more posts afterwards. Oops.

Mr.gider once said that if he was going to do a transgender character he'd want to do it right and not just have it be a token put in it just to have it. so maybe sometime down the line it might happen and if it does it would be the coolest  thing ever 

Serendipity, anyone?

[Wrathion]

Battlebloodmage wrote...



Serendipity, anyone?

You barely even talk to Serendipity. Even less if you don't have MOTA. I think he means some else. (Hopefully romancable)

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 09 octobre 2012 - 10:09 .

[JediMB]

Overlord_Mephist wrote...

A trap would be nice, would probably be the first time I beat it(the game...lol) as a male character.  Though I can't think of any english VAs that can pull off the androgynous voice.

Will never happen but one can dream 

Ugh. Don't like the term "trap" at all, or what it implies.

I think the best way to do it would be to have an androgynous race of human-like people. Not male, not female, just people. You could ask them if they're men or women, and they wouldn't have an answer.

Maybe not possible to fit into a Dragon Age game going that route, but still...

Quicksilver26 wrote...

Mr.gider once said that if he was going to do a transgender character he'd want to do it right and not just have it be a token put in it just to have it. so maybe sometime down the line it might happen and if it does it would be the coolest  thing ever 

It's a day to look forward to, regardless of if it happens in DA3 or in some other game down the line.

Modifié par JediMB, 09 octobre 2012 - 10:11 .

[Battlebloodmage]

JediMB wrote...

Overlord_Mephist wrote...

A trap would be nice, would probably be the first time I beat it(the game...lol) as a male character.  Though I can't think of any english VAs that can pull off the androgynous voice.

Will never happen but one can dream 

Ugh. Don't like the term "trap" at all, or what it implies.

I think the best way to do it would be to have an androgynous race of human-like people. Not male, not female, just people. You could ask them if they're men or women, and they wouldn't have an answer.

Quicksilver26 wrote...

Mr.gider once said that if he was going to do a transgender character he'd want to do it right and not just have it be a token put in it just to have it. so maybe sometime down the line it might happen and if it does it would be the coolest  thing ever 

It's a day to look forward to, regardless of if it happens in DA3 or in some other game down the line.

At the end of theday, they would still need to look like men or women like with the Asari, or they could be completely non-human like Salarians or Elcors. A transgendered character sounds nice. There's pontential.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Battlebloodmage write...
It "doesn't mean it's what they should do" or what YOU don't think they should do?

See here:

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
They will do what they favor, obviously. Yet again: doesn't mean
it's what they should do, as that is determined by what is to be
achieved.

The ones who decide what sensible is not you but the writers of DA universe.

No. Here, too, one must first decide to which end it is supposed to be sensible. To please fans and to sell copies of the game, it is sensible. That is their goal, so that is what they're going to do. It is not sensible in regard to avoiding all too convenient coincidences or building a plausible world.

You're just based what you think on the number of homosexual couples in
the game which may not be entirely accurate since not a lot of them will
jump out and say how homosexual they are to a random stranger. I don't
mind people speculate what Bioware's intends are, but it does irritate
me a bit when they present their speculation as facts.

If Thedas' society is open to homosexuality, as it necessarily is, if homosexual attraction is all that common, there is no good reason why homosexual relationships should be mentioned as seldom. It would also mean a rather huge social statement on part of Bioware. Not mentioning it even once would mean colossal failure at introducing the world of Thedas on their part.

Satyricon331 wrote...
you have yet to provide any argument at all why the sample of people
that the LI companions represent "should" be a "plausible" sample.  Your
premise here implicitly simply seems to be that Bioware should cater to
your enjoyment of your sense of plausibility over player' enjoyment of
romances.

You could say that, yes. As I've said at the very beginning, I find plausability more important than pandering to minorities. If you're of the opinion that in this case, it is better to let said minorities have their fun, fine. Nothing to argue about there.

but then disavowed that implication when people took it to mean gay

I did not mean to disavow. I just wanted pointed out that it was meant as a general statement, pertaining to all kinds of social issues, not just people's views of homosexual relationships.

[Wrathion]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...


You could say that, yes. As I've said at the very beginning, I find plausability more important than pandering to minorities. If you're of the opinion that in this case, it is better to let said minorities have their fun, fine. Nothing to argue about there.

Pandering to minorities...really?

[whykikyouwhy]

Regarding the notion of "pandering to minorities" -  I don't see Bioware as pandering, as trying to ingratiate themselves to one particular group of people. Rather, I see them as attempting to build a rich world and offer multiple options so that many people can role-play as they please. 

[Battlebloodmage]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Battlebloodmage write...
It "doesn't mean it's what they should do" or what YOU don't think they should do?

See here:

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
They will do what they favor, obviously. Yet again: doesn't mean
it's what they should do, as that is determined by what is to be
achieved.

The ones who decide what sensible is not you but the writers of DA universe.

No. Here, too, one must first decide to which end it is supposed to be sensible. To please fans and to sell copies of the game, it is sensible. That is their goal, so that is what they're going to do. It is not sensible in regard to avoiding all too convenient coincidences or building a plausible world.

You're just based what you think on the number of homosexual couples in
the game which may not be entirely accurate since not a lot of them will
jump out and say how homosexual they are to a random stranger. I don't
mind people speculate what Bioware's intends are, but it does irritate
me a bit when they present their speculation as facts.

If Thedas' society is open to homosexuality, as it necessarily is, if homosexual attraction is all that common, there is no good reason why homosexual relationships should be mentioned as seldom. It would also mean a rather huge social statement on part of Bioware. Not mentioning it even once would mean colossal failure at introducing the world of Thedas on their part.

Satyricon331 wrote...
you have yet to provide any argument at all why the sample of people
that the LI companions represent "should" be a "plausible" sample.  Your
premise here implicitly simply seems to be that Bioware should cater to
your enjoyment of your sense of plausibility over player' enjoyment of
romances.

You could say that, yes. As I've said at the very beginning, I find plausability more important than pandering to minorities. If you're of the opinion that in this case, it is better to let said minorities have their fun, fine. Nothing to argue about there.

but then disavowed that implication when people took it to mean gay

I did not mean to disavow. I just wanted pointed out that it was meant as a general statement, pertaining to all kinds of social issues, not just people's views of homosexual relationships.

Must be nice to be the majority where every developers cater to your every need.

To please fans? but which fans? The majority? Bottomline is you want your needs to be catered to, screw everyone else. They don't need to mention homosexuals could be because it's common. The relationships in-game as well as the books speak for itself. It's not a big deal, so there's no point in keep referring to it.

[Masha Potato]

lol "pandering to minorities"

hahahahhaha

how horrible! hard to imagine that in our civilized age somebody would pander to minorities. unforgivable

[upsettingshorts]

As a Straight Male Gamer ™ I have been enjoying near-exclusive pandering from all media my entire life. Putting aside the fact that even this gets stale after a while, I'm offended that anyone else would take issue with other people getting even a taste of the kind of thing I've been enjoying for years. That thing? Being considered the default.

I cordially invite anyone with a similar point of view to my own objecting to S/S content to calmly get over themselves.

[Satyricon331]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
You could say that, yes. As I've said at the very beginning, I find plausability more important than pandering to minorities. If you're of the opinion that in this case, it is better to let said minorities have their fun, fine. Nothing to argue about there.

Well then, you have no argument.  Even if we grant that GLBTs in Thedas occur at the same rate as on Earth (and if we tallied up the couples as earlier posts touched on, I suspect the proportion would be higher, but no matter), then reaching your conclusion Bioware "should" make the LI proportions that same rate needs both an argument that there's no selection effect on sexual orientation, and a normative argument about what's "more important."  As it stands, your normative point is just an empty assertion rather than an argument.  

As it goes, I think it's far more plausible to think that straights would disproportionately avoid adventuring parties since they're the ones with kids tying them down, and normatively I think it's valuable to create enjoyment and to avoid pandering to people who prefer an absence of GLBTs out of bigotry.  After all, you have to admit that the people who share your preference* form a set that's disproportionately bigoted.  

*edit: on having fewer gay/lesbian romances, that is.

I did not mean to disavow. I just wanted pointed out that it was meant as a general statement, pertaining to all kinds of social issues, not just people's views of homosexual relationships.

If you think the medieval elements of Fereldan and Kirkwall preclude the lower rates of social/non-economic inequality they have generally, I'd love to hear the argument.  The medieval elements seem relatively superficial to me, and to the extent they're there, the don't seem to be the ones that are necessary to have the discrimination characteristic of medieval Europe.  They have a female-run religion whose god doesn't seem to care about sexuality.  I think it's implausible to the point of being incredible to think that that fact wouldn't create a much more "egalitarian" society. 

Modifié par Satyricon331, 09 octobre 2012 - 11:08 .

[David Gaider]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
You could say that, yes. As I've said at the very beginning, I find plausability more important than pandering to minorities. If you're of the opinion that in this case, it is better to let said minorities have their fun, fine. Nothing to argue about there.

Wow. This is not going to go anywhere good.

Let me say this:

I'm certainly glad you're okay with other people believing it's fine for BioWare to "pander to minorities", even if you're not... said pandering being unimportant in comparison to your evaluation of the setting's plausibility. Because, so long as your world view is reinforced, it's not a problem?

That is called privilege. I hate having to roll the word out in cases like this, but the "pander" comment all but screams it. And since you otherwise seem like a thoughtful person, it might be difficult to face up to such biases in yourself. I certainly did, the first time they were pointed out to me. And I still have plenty of preconceptions I have to contend with on a regular basis, things that I resist not because they're actual problems but because I'm simply used to them being that way... and used to having my worldview reinforced every way I look. That's the way it should be, right?

Well, it's not. Dragon Age is not interested in catering to overt ideas of sexism or homophobia simply because someone considers that "realistic". We feel no need to have that level of realism. Ignoring the idea that those notions are based on Victorian mores which themselves are out of place in a medieval setting, I'll point out that Dragon Age isn't even trying to be excessively medieval. Some people scoff at the idea of dragons and fireballs being used as an argument as why a fantasy world might have "implausible" elements, completely ignoring that history does not happen without context. In this world, fireballs and dragons exist. So its history must also exist in conjunction with that completely implausible reality... not aside from it. Deciding what you find implausible in that context says more about you than it does about the setting, and while you're certainly free to say what you do and do not like you might also want to check your privilege a little harder when you start deriding what other people find personally important just because their concerns are not such a big deal for you.

I hope that's clear, and that you'll think about this a bit harder before the next time you bring it up.

And since this thread is only going to go downhill, I'll close by saying this isn't something that is up for discussion. We're not going to alter the way the world works, or change how sexuality is dealt with in its context purely on the basis of people using the excuse that they find it implausible-- for the reasons mentioned above. Thanks.

Modifié par David Gaider, 09 octobre 2012 - 11:26 .