243 réponses à ce sujet

[Quicksilver26]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Which is, in turn, a reference to Peanuts.

yup but Xander made it more funny:D

[Allan Schumacher]

motomotogirl wrote...

I think that's how I was reading her response. And I like I said, it seems to come from the mindset that a person's sexuality is a very definitive part of who s/he is. 

It's just hard for me to think like that since I rarely think of a person's sexuality. 

I'm just confused why "Merrill being straight" is a stronger characterization than "Merrill is hero-sexual." She is still the same character with the same story arc.

Well, someone like Cortez can't reference his husband if he's "hero-sexual" and I applaud the ME guys for incorporating Cortez's backstory in there and while it made me (Allan, the player) go "oh hey!" (because I have limited experience with a gay man being that open) I loved that Shepard didn't even blink an eye.  It meant that that type of relationship was so common it wasn't even noteworthy, which is a strong message to convey.

[HiddenInWar]

Iveybella wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Iveybella wrote...

Quicksilver26 wrote...

Iveybella wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Okay. But, assuming that Garrus is bisexual: as long as you aren't romancing him, is it really important that he is bisexual? After all, he and your Shepard would only be friends, and he would treat him as such. His attraction is something that only matters inside his own head. If you want to have a relationship were you and Garrus go shopping for sniper rifles instead of lusting over eachother's bodies, simply don't start a romance.

Of course not, were Shepard gay though and attracted to Garus then the relationship might be different.

For those who played Femshep, wouldn't you're relationship with Steve have been different had he been bi or straight?

 
no not really sexuality is fluid sometimes it just the person not the gender that matters

(but i'll admit that it would take away from OH WOW THERE A REAL GAY GUY IN THE I'M GONNA GO ROUND THE HOUSE DOING THE SNOOPY DANCE thing that having a gay person brings)

Lol snoopy dance? I haven't heard of this 

I loved both Traynor and Cortez, I thought it was neat that they had S/S exculsive relationships in ME3, it helped to make up for all the straight ones we had in the previous two games.

Not really, ME3 finally has s/s relationhip for Maleshep, but since it's a trilogy, people kinda miss out on the first two games. I was disappointed with the ME team for a while because in my mind, they only cater to the mainstream audience at the time. It's like if they want to play their character as gay, they need to stay alone for 2 whole games. That's the main reason why I'm not gonna get ME trilogy on PS3. I have a PC mod that allow Kaidan to be romanceable by Maleshep in the first game so having to stay single for 2 whole games just to finally be able to romance him again just take the immersion out of the game for me. I don't know if it's a petty reason for not wanting a game, but it's one of the features I look for the most in a Bioware game so missing it just reduce the replayability value for me. That's why as a whole, ME2 is better but I find it more enjoyable to play ME3 because ME1 and ME2 are not made for me, at least in term of romance. I hope it doesn't come off as bashing because that is not my intention. I'm just expressing my process while playing these games.

I understand where you're coming from. I thought it was odd that they had f/f relationships in the first two games but no m/m ones. I didn't mean 'oh they added a few in the last game so that makes it all better' But it seems to be a feature Bioware is paying more attention to in new games so I am certain there will be some in DA3, if not all.

Yeah, I feel the same way. I like they're catering to us though, it means a lot. 

[Dhiro]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

I think that's how I was reading her response. And I like I said, it seems to come from the mindset that a person's sexuality is a very definitive part of who s/he is. 

It's just hard for me to think like that since I rarely think of a person's sexuality. 

I'm just confused why "Merrill being straight" is a stronger characterization than "Merrill is hero-sexual." She is still the same character with the same story arc.

Well, someone like Cortez can't reference his husband if he's "hero-sexual" and I applaud the ME guys for incorporating Cortez's backstory in there and while it made me (Allan, the player) go "oh hey!" (because I have limited experience with a gay man being that open) I loved that Shepard didn't even blink an eye.  It meant that that type of relationship was so common it wasn't even noteworthy, which is a strong message to convey.

Yes, that's a benefit from homosexual-only love interests. That said? Unless we have one of those, I don't see the benefit of a heterosexual-only LI. For example, in ME3 having content locked to a specific gender didn't meant the lost of diversity or options - homosexual men had Kaidan and Cortez, while homosexual women had Liara and Samtnha. In Origins, though? You either liked Zevran or Leliana or you were out of luck, which is why I hope never go back to that system again.

[Battlebloodmage]

HiddenInWar wrote...

Iveybella wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Iveybella wrote...

Quicksilver26 wrote...

Iveybella wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Okay. But, assuming that Garrus is bisexual: as long as you aren't romancing him, is it really important that he is bisexual? After all, he and your Shepard would only be friends, and he would treat him as such. His attraction is something that only matters inside his own head. If you want to have a relationship were you and Garrus go shopping for sniper rifles instead of lusting over eachother's bodies, simply don't start a romance.

Of course not, were Shepard gay though and attracted to Garus then the relationship might be different.

For those who played Femshep, wouldn't you're relationship with Steve have been different had he been bi or straight?

 
no not really sexuality is fluid sometimes it just the person not the gender that matters

(but i'll admit that it would take away from OH WOW THERE A REAL GAY GUY IN THE I'M GONNA GO ROUND THE HOUSE DOING THE SNOOPY DANCE thing that having a gay person brings)

Lol snoopy dance? I haven't heard of this 

I loved both Traynor and Cortez, I thought it was neat that they had S/S exculsive relationships in ME3, it helped to make up for all the straight ones we had in the previous two games.

Not really, ME3 finally has s/s relationhip for Maleshep, but since it's a trilogy, people kinda miss out on the first two games. I was disappointed with the ME team for a while because in my mind, they only cater to the mainstream audience at the time. It's like if they want to play their character as gay, they need to stay alone for 2 whole games. That's the main reason why I'm not gonna get ME trilogy on PS3. I have a PC mod that allow Kaidan to be romanceable by Maleshep in the first game so having to stay single for 2 whole games just to finally be able to romance him again just take the immersion out of the game for me. I don't know if it's a petty reason for not wanting a game, but it's one of the features I look for the most in a Bioware game so missing it just reduce the replayability value for me. That's why as a whole, ME2 is better but I find it more enjoyable to play ME3 because ME1 and ME2 are not made for me, at least in term of romance. I hope it doesn't come off as bashing because that is not my intention. I'm just expressing my process while playing these games.

I understand where you're coming from. I thought it was odd that they had f/f relationships in the first two games but no m/m ones. I didn't mean 'oh they added a few in the last game so that makes it all better' But it seems to be a feature Bioware is paying more attention to in new games so I am certain there will be some in DA3, if not all.

Yeah, I feel the same way. I like they're catering to us though, it means a lot. 

I think the sigma about homosexual is lessen, so I'm glad that Bioware is finally looking out for the little guys.

Too bad SWTOR doesn't have one yet. It's understandable that they remove it though since it's Bioware first big budget MMO, and they want to appeal to the mainstream audience. I have to cut the the team a break though since they did promise to add it later on once the game had been delivered to the mainstream crowd. I may try it later on once it's added.

Like I said, I'm not bashing Bioware. They're one of the very few developers out there that allow homosexual relationship, so it means a lot to me and a lot of the people out there. Bioware is currently my favorite dev right now since they do listen to their fans.

[Aleya]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Well, someone like Cortez can't reference his husband if he's "hero-sexual" and I applaud the ME guys for incorporating Cortez's backstory in there and while it made me (Allan, the player) go "oh hey!" (because I have limited experience with a gay man being that open) I loved that Shepard didn't even blink an eye.  It meant that that type of relationship was so common it wasn't even noteworthy, which is a strong message to convey.

This, so much this. I actually hopped spastically around the room in a little victory dance for about five minutes after Cortez mentioned his husband like it was no big deal, and Shepard responded in kind. While I know deep down that I'm completely normal and the gender of my chosen partner doesn't matter, it's still a lovely mood booster to have someone else confirm that. Having that confirmation come from a kickass military pilot in one of my favorite games ever isn't so much icing on the cake as all the birthday presents I've ever had wrapped into one.

Anders telling my female Hawke about Karl would've produced the exact same effect, which is why I'm still sad about the missed opportunity.

Hero-sexual characters are just...no. Fenris didn't suddenly love mages because Hawke was a mage. Why on earth would he suddenly love men/women because Hawke was male/female? I want individual characters to be themselves. I don't want them adjusted based on who my PC is. It makes the romance feel less like "oh lucky me!" and more like "well of course s/he's interested, I'm the hero after all."

Modifié par Aleya, 08 octobre 2012 - 07:31 .

[Maria Caliban]

Ander mentioned people. Isabela did as well. Fenris didn't mention anyone because he has no memory. Merrill didn't mention anyone because she's rather virginal.

The idea that Cortez couldn't mention his husband if they'd gone with DA II's hero-sexual route does assume that men who marry other men never have an attraction to women.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 08 octobre 2012 - 07:36 .

[Maugrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

I think that's how I was reading her response. And I like I said, it seems to come from the mindset that a person's sexuality is a very definitive part of who s/he is. 

It's just hard for me to think like that since I rarely think of a person's sexuality. 

I'm just confused why "Merrill being straight" is a stronger characterization than "Merrill is hero-sexual." She is still the same character with the same story arc.

Well, someone like Cortez can't reference his husband if he's "hero-sexual" and I applaud the ME guys for incorporating Cortez's backstory in there and while it made me (Allan, the player) go "oh hey!" (because I have limited experience with a gay man being that open) I loved that Shepard didn't even blink an eye.  It meant that that type of relationship was so common it wasn't even noteworthy, which is a strong message to convey.

I don't mean to jump on the case of someone who is trying to be reasonable but this is just incorrect.  Unless we take hero-sexual to mean that the characters only like the hero, instead of liking the hero without regard for gender, then yes you can absolutely have that sort of backstory.  

And this may not be the approriate thread but I really love the amount interaction you've been having with the community lately Allan, kudos!

[Red by Full Metal Jacket]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Ander mentioned people. Isabela did as well. Fenris didn't mention anyone because he has no memory. Merrill didn't mention anyone because she's rather virginal.

The idea that Cortez couldn't mention his husband if they'd gone with DA II's hero-sexual route does assume that men who marry other men never have an attraction to women.

Bioware went out of their way to not mention Karl to FemHawke. I don't think they are comfortable with having a male romancable character to female PCs mention attraction to other men. Did Zevran even mention his bisexuality to a female Warden?

Modifié par Red by Full Metal Jacket, 08 octobre 2012 - 08:02 .

[Maria Caliban]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Bioware went out of their way to not mention Karl to FemHawke. I don't think they are comfortable with having a male romancable character to female PCs mention attraction to other men. Did Zevran even mention his bisexuality to a female Warden?

He did. It was one of the earlier conversation as well.

[Quicksilver26]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Ander mentioned people. Isabela did as well. Fenris didn't mention anyone because he has no memory. Merrill didn't mention anyone because she's rather virginal.

The idea that Cortez couldn't mention his husband if they'd gone with DA II's hero-sexual route does assume that men who marry other men never have an attraction to women.

Bioware went out of their way to not mention Karl to FemHawke. I don't think they are comfortable with having a male romancable character to female PCs mention attraction to other men. Did Zevran even mention his bisexuality to a female Warden?

yes Zevran said something along the lines of I think all people are beautiful men women even you it's it ok if i like you

[Biotic Sage]

I think NPCs should have firmly solidified identities when you meet them. Their backstories, their beliefs, and yes even their sexualities. While I am completely pro individual liberty and social justice, I thought it was kind of cheap in DA2 to accommodate the homosexual/bisexual demographic by making every NPC completely malleable to fit the PC's sexuality. I applauded ME3 for realistically representing all sexualities by having Cortez and Traynor present, and more than that available to romance. In DA3 I would hope that there is fair representation for everyone, but also that it is realistic in the way that fair representation occurs. Sure there can be a bisexual character because in reality there are bisexual people, but that sexuality has to be a part of their character (Leliana and Zevran). Just like a character's heterosexuality has to be a part of their character (see Morrigan and Alistair). If a character is homosexual, that has to be a part of their character (e.g. Cortez). Anyway, I think we all get my point here.

Homosexuality (if you want to talk about sexuality in black and white terms like ****** and hetero) has always made up about 10% of the population throughout history in pretty much every society. In societies that were more tolerant in terms of how people chose to express their sexuality (such as anciet Greece), there was actaully an increase in mainstream bisexual/homosexual behavior.

These are facts, and people who are specifically anti-gay, or worse, anti-individual liberty in general, need to learn to deal with these facts. While I won't hold my breath for this to happen, I think companies like Bioware and brave film writers/directors have the ability to broaden perspectives and foster tolerance.

[SirGladiator]

I think the difference between the DA2 system and the ME3 system is simply that the DA2 one is much more fun than the ME3 one. Naturally some people like that Samantha is only available for Female Shepard, while others like that Ashley, Miranda, Jack, and Tali aren't available to FemShep. The fact that limiting the fun for people like myself can appeal to folks on both extremes of the same issue is unfortunate, because regular folks like myself just want to be able to romance their favorite romancable characters, not sacrifice their fun because somebody else is pro or anti s/s romance.

Happily most games these days, including Skyrim, DA2, Fallout NV, etc. are putting fun ahead of promoting any kind of anti-fun agenda. There's really never a reason to take away our romance options, certainly if you go back to DAO, there's nothing to indicate that Morrigan is straight, or that Leliana isn't a lesbian (at least nothing that I've ever seen in my many playthroughs) but both should be romancable by whoever wants to romance them instead of the artificial limitations placed on one of them but not the other. In DA2 that wasn't a problem, it was simply all about having fun and romancing whoever you liked. Thats all I want, I wouldn't have minded a bit if they had defined Merrill as completely straight, even have her initially react with shock and negativity to Lady Hawke's initial advances, so long as Lady Hawke could still successfully romance her in the end. Define the characters however straight or not straight you like, just let us romance whoever we want, and we'll all be happy.

[Melca36]

About the S/S romances in Mass Effect 3......

Loved Samantha.

I personally prefer Cortez with Male Shep because it just feels more real and natural to me.


I know Kaidan was supposed to be m/m love in interest back in ME1 but it just does NOT feel as real to me as Cortez/mShep do.

[Wulfram]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Ander mentioned people. Isabela did as well. Fenris didn't mention anyone because he has no memory. Merrill didn't mention anyone because she's rather virginal.

And Merrill does mention finding the Qunari "easy on the eye"

[AlexJK]

Aleya wrote...

Hero-sexual characters are just...no. Fenris didn't suddenly love mages because Hawke was a mage. Why on earth would he suddenly love men/women because Hawke was male/female?

What makes you think any part of his reaction to your Hawke is "sudden"? Fenris's relationship (if memory serves, played this a while ago) is based around love, support and acceptance, not a sudden desire to bed the player character. Why wouldn't his feelings be equally applicable to men or women? Don't try and describe him as "hetero", "******", or "bi" (which are only definitions that make any kind of sense to 21st century human understanding of sexual behaviour anyway) and he makes perfect sense.

[AlexJK]

Biotic Sage wrote...

[...] Sure there can be a bisexual character because in reality there are bisexual people, but that sexuality has to be a part of their character (Leliana and Zevran). Just like a character's heterosexuality has to be a part of their character (see Morrigan and Alistair). If a character is homosexual, that has to be a part of their character (e.g. Cortez). Anyway, I think we all get my point here.

[...] These are facts, and people who are specifically anti-gay, or worse, anti-individual liberty in general, need to learn to deal with these facts. While I won't hold my breath for this to happen, I think companies like Bioware and brave film writers/directors have the ability to broaden perspectives and foster tolerance.

Why does it make any difference if a character is hetero-, ******-, bi-, or hero-sexual in terms of the possible dialogue options recorded and encoded within game files? During any given playthrough of the game, the characters are either given a sexuality where appropriate for story purposes (Cortez, ******; Isabela, bi), or they are simply "available for romancing". I don't think there's any kind of agenda on Bioware's part (nor should there be), beyond creating interesting character backstories where they are needed, and making as many options avaiable to as many players as possible the rest of the time.

To suggest that the presence of a homosexual relationship option is in some way diluted by the fact that the same audio files and cinematics can also play as a heterosexual relationship... doesn't really hold as an argument, does it?

[Terrorize69]

I hope that like DA2, nearly everyone can swing either way. S/S for all!

Everyone wins, people can ship the chars and sexs they want, and those that don't want it, won't see it in their game. Doesn't effect anyone in the slightest.

Unless ofcourse the idea that your LI is gay/straight in a alt universe with another person somehow causes you pain..

[Lennard Testarossa]

Biotic Sage wrote...
Homosexuality (if you want to talk about sexuality in black and
white terms like ****** and hetero) has always made up about 10% of the
population throughout history in pretty much every society.

And given that 10% is already quite generous, it would be completely unreasonable to expect to have even one homosexual companion. It is certainly fine to have homosexual companions in games now and then, but having at least one romanceable potentially lesbian and one romanceable potentially gay companion when there's about five romance-choices in total is ridiculous.

If a gay romance option fits a character, that's fine. If not, just leave it out. It would've been much better to make Anders a gay guy (and by that I mean exclusively gay) and Fenris exlusively heterosexual.

Realism is more important than pandering to a minority.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 08 octobre 2012 - 11:12 .

[Aleya]

AlexJK wrote...
What makes you think any part of his reaction to your Hawke is "sudden"? Fenris's relationship (if memory serves, played this a while ago) is based around love, support and acceptance, not a sudden desire to bed the player character. Why wouldn't his feelings be equally applicable to men or women? Don't try and describe him as "hetero", "******", or "bi" (which are only definitions that make any kind of sense to 21st century human understanding of sexual behaviour anyway) and he makes perfect sense.

Where did I say Fenris's reaction to Hawke is "sudden"? I said that an NPC being gay if the PC is male and straight if the PC is female makes about as much sense as Fenris hating mages if Hawke is a warrior/rogue and being totally pro-Mage if Hawke is a mage. What I object to is characters being rewritten between playthroughs.

I don't mind all-bi LIs. I mind characters whose meta identity clearly differs from their identity in any individual playthrough.

I didn't really object to any DA2 character's orientation but Anders'. He's the only one where the difference is obvious, and his not mentioning Karl to a female Hawke pissed me off beyond all belief. See, there was no reason for it. There's no reason whatsoever for making a character hero-sexual rather than bisexual. The practical results are exactly the same, so why do it? It wasn't to avoid causing offense, because Anders hitting on male Hawke with zero encouragement caused considerably more ourage than him mentioning his male ex to a female Hawke would have.

I suppose that's really my question: why go for hero-sexuality over bisexuality? Why mess with who a character is when you can just have them be themselves for all playthroughs? 

Modifié par Aleya, 08 octobre 2012 - 12:31 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
And given that 10% is already quite generous, it would be completely unreasonable to expect to have even one homosexual companion. It is certainly fine to have homosexual companions in games now and then, but having at least one romanceable potentially lesbian and one romanceable potentially gay companion when there's about five romance-choices in total is ridiculous.

If a gay romance option fits a character, that's fine. If not, just leave it out. It would've been much better to make Anders a gay guy (and by that I mean exclusively gay) and Fenris exlusively heterosexual.

Realism is more important than pandering to a minority.

Regarding the bolded - 

If you want to make the point of the romance needing to fit the character, ok...personally, I feel that the 4 LIs who were available in DA2 would be open to romancing a PC of either gender. Because I think they would be able to love the person/PC. There doesn't seem to be anything that would make that affection and attraction unrealistic to who they are as characters. To use your example, I don't see anything that Fenris did or said as being cause for him to be exclusively heterosexual. What are you using to define that? What is it about each character that strikes you as being indicative of some categorization?

The romance options are there in the game so that the players can have their PCs romance the character - the sum-total of the character, because it's likely the sum total that is attractive or interesting, and would make a nice pairing with the PC. So, the bold and brash pirate, the Dalish elf trying to restore the glory of her clan, the mage struggling with ideals, etc. The characters are fun, fun-loving, conflicted, dedicated and driven. They are, like people we know and interact with in our day to day, a medley of aspects, and not just one particular thing. 

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 08 octobre 2012 - 12:49 .