243 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Ander mentioned people. Isabela did as well. Fenris didn't mention anyone because he has no memory. Merrill didn't mention anyone because she's rather virginal.

The idea that Cortez couldn't mention his husband if they'd gone with DA II's hero-sexual route does assume that men who marry other men never have an attraction to women.

Bioware went out of their way to not mention Karl to FemHawke. I don't think they are comfortable with having a male romancable character to female PCs mention attraction to other men. Did Zevran even mention his bisexuality to a female Warden?

Yep, many times and mentioned female to the male wardens. The most memorable one being the whole earring thing.

[filetemo]

A companion sets him/herself as gay/straight/bi in my first playthrough, and that's set in stone in my mind.
If my character changes gender for the next playthrough, and then my companion has the opposite orientation as before, it just feels out of character.

I'd say "that's probably just me" but I've seen this same feeling to several posters here

[esper]

Aleya wrote...

AlexJK wrote...
What makes you think any part of his reaction to your Hawke is "sudden"? Fenris's relationship (if memory serves, played this a while ago) is based around love, support and acceptance, not a sudden desire to bed the player character. Why wouldn't his feelings be equally applicable to men or women? Don't try and describe him as "hetero", "******", or "bi" (which are only definitions that make any kind of sense to 21st century human understanding of sexual behaviour anyway) and he makes perfect sense.

Where did I say Fenris's reaction to Hawke is "sudden"? I said that an NPC being gay if the PC is male and straight if the PC is female makes about as much sense as Fenris hating mages if Hawke is a warrior/rogue and being totally pro-Mage if Hawke is a mage. What I object to is characters being rewritten between playthroughs.

I don't mind all-bi LIs. I mind characters whose meta identity clearly differs from their identity in any individual playthrough.

I didn't really object to any DA2 character's orientation but Anders'. He's the only one where the difference is obvious, and his not mentioning Karl to a female Hawke pissed me off beyond all belief. See, there was no reason for it. There's no reason whatsoever for making a character hero-sexual rather than bisexual. The practical results are exactly the same, so why do it? It wasn't to avoid causing offense, because Anders hitting on male Hawke with zero encouragement caused considerably more ourage than him mentioning his male ex to a female Hawke would have.

I suppose that's really my question: why go for hero-sexuality over bisexuality? Why mess with who a character is when you can just have them be themselves for all playthroughs? 

Why should he mention it to female Hawke in that situation. Anders is not Zevran or Isabella who can turn every topic into a topic about sex.

[themikefest]

am sure S/S romances will be in the game why would bioware not add it

[EricHVela]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well, someone like Cortez can't reference his husband if he's "hero-sexual" and I applaud the ME guys for incorporating Cortez's backstory in there and while it made me (Allan, the player) go "oh hey!" (because I have limited experience with a gay man being that open) I loved that Shepard didn't even blink an eye.  It meant that that type of relationship was so common it wasn't even noteworthy, which is a strong message to convey.

I think the message should have been irrelevant.

I hope that your opinion isn't shared by the writers on that, but now, I worry. Saying what you said actually means that the situation is the opposite of not being noteworthy. From what you said, that sounds like the story was trying to tell us that we shouldn't be bothered by it today as some kind of moral lesson.

In my opinion, it was better not knowing that. It would have simply been part of the story's setting, truly not worth mentioning -- background noise (as I think it reallys should be today), but now, I worry that the story purposely mentioned it and that it's no longer just background noise but something we were supposed to notice as if they intended to be an important message -- a big deal. I want it to be background noise in real life, but bringing focus to it so much just makes it out to be something abnormal. It's not abnormal. It's not worth making people notice it. It's background noise if we let it be that.

I'm going to try and hope that your opinion on the "strong message" is not mutual among BW. I liked it better when there seemed to be no real purpose -- no "message" -- behind people's reaction (or lack thereof) to Cortez's sexuality. I'm, now, still going to wonder about future mentions of such when I see it from BW stories.

I've held the opinion that, if I don't want it to be a big deal, I don't make it a big deal. To me, it's a big deal when people make it important and try to preach it to others by throwing it into people's faces. It would have been better to leave out that it was a "strong message to convey". It should have simply been something not worth mentioning even outside of the story, just something you see everyday and don't notice as a reader/player.

I have seen movies with actual stories that didn't revolve around the main character being gay (and *gasp* didn't have sex in them either -- wonder if main-stream will ever get the hint). If they can do that, Cortez's homosexuality should have been the same to the player, and I think the key is that it shouldn't be something the writer is trying to preach to the readers.
[/rant]

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:22 .

[Tootles FTW]

I liked having lesbian/gay-only characters in ME3, but for the sake of maximizing player options I had no issue whatsoever with DA2's approach.

Personally I liked how they handled Anders's shifting sexuality - if you're a maleHawke he makes reference to having been intimate with Karl, if you're a ladyHawke he doesn't. In DA3 I'd like if they included a similar line or two in regards to sexuality should you pursue a same-sex romance (either that they have been with s/s before, or this is their first time).

[bleetman]

Whenever someone says "only if it fits their character", for some reason I always read it as "only if they fit my decidely narrow perception as to how a homosexual person behaves, which is entirely generated by my own biases and preconceptions".

It's strange, really.

Modifié par bleetman, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:41 .

[N147]

Quicksilver26 wrote...

Iveybella wrote...

 I loved the way the did in Mass Effect 3. I played Maleshep for reference, the relationship wouldn't be the same for Garus and Shepard and Samantha Shepard had they been bisexual. Although I'm not sure if adding in more romances would take away from those that are already there, that said I didn't have a problem with the way they did it in DA2 either but it'll be interesting to see how they decide to implement it in DA3.

i'm gonna be so sorry for asking this but i must casue it just bugs the hell out of me when people say this 
but  how the hell does him might being with a guy in someone elses playthrough take anything out of your relationship? 
just because it's there does not chage the way he or they feel

It actually bothers me, I don't know about other people but this is actually why I don't like the whole "everyone is Bi".
It's weird, but knowing Garrus takes it in the butt in someone else's playthrough, kinda ruins the character for me. Luckily I didn't care too much about the DA2 characters for this to ****** me off.

[EricHVela]

bleetman wrote...

Whenever someone says "only if it fits their character", for some reason I always read it as "only if they fit my decidely narrow perception as to how a homosexual person behaves, which is entirely generated by my own biases and preconceptions".

It's strange, really.

Or, probably more-likely, how common media portrays homosexuality.

It's not just common media, either. Some fault goes to the homosexual community that wants to grab the notice of people.

The original Pride was supposed to show how homosexuals are just people -- your bankers, grocers, neighbors, friends, relatives, people you see every day and weren't any different. It's become a circus since then. I can't attend one without getting annoyed now. Most people just want to be left alone, but we mostly see nowadays are people that demand that you acknowledge their homosexuality and not simply accept everyone because we're all just people. We shouldn't focus on our differences. We should focus on our similarities.

Those who don't have a lot of personal dealings with people that they know are homosexual don't know any different. Innocence of facts isn't a crime. Ignoring facts (aka ignorance) is almost a crime against society. Many of those people with false preconceptions just haven't had the chance to know anything other than what their beloved TV shows them. They aren't aware there's something different out there. There's nothing to even hint that there's anything different out there. I find it difficult to blame them for that.

Given how BWE seems to favor sexual opportunities regardless of gender (and I'll admit it likely makes development easier not worrying about extra story deviations based on gender for the main story), there will likely be all (if not most) characters available to any gender.

As usual, I am rather certain that it will be optional. I just hope that one won't have to preemptively choose a rude option just once to end the romance track like ME1 if they want to have a nice protagonist. (If you made your protagonist be nice to the ME1 LI-available characters all of the time, you ended up on their available romance track unless you were rude to them at a particular point in the dialog. After your protagonist kicked them in the teeth that one time, your character could be nice to them all the other times without worrying about a romance.)

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 08 octobre 2012 - 02:38 .

[davepissedatending]

Yes please lol

[Patchwork]

Normally I'm in favour of grounding stories with realism. The more fantastic the premise the more realistic characters and their reactions need to be. Lay down the rules which govern the universe early and don't deviate.

Every single person in a group being bi-sexual isn't realistic but when it comes to video game love interests I prefer if the player has the choice. I don't think that in a quest adventure games an LI's sexuality matters enough to be fixed, let the player craft the story.

[Masha Potato]

aufgestockt

[draken-heart]

ME3 had the romances right...sort of. With having Straight, bi and gay/lesbian options worked of it, why not do it with this one, even have a non-party romance for S/S?

[Battlebloodmage]

draken-heart wrote...

ME3 had the romances right...sort of. With having Straight, bi and gay/lesbian options worked of it, why not do it with this one, even have a non-party romance for S/S?

Let's do it different this time and have straight non-party romance and s/s companions.

[ScotGaymer]

Allan Schumacher wrote...


Well, someone like Cortez can't reference his husband if he's "hero-sexual" and I applaud the ME guys for incorporating Cortez's backstory in there and while it made me (Allan, the player) go "oh hey!" (because I have limited experience with a gay man being that open) I loved that Shepard didn't even blink an eye.  It meant that that type of relationship was so common it wasn't even noteworthy, which is a strong message to convey.

A little off topic Allan but can I ask if you actually pursued the romance with Steve?

I ask because while I really liked Cortez (and Traynor) in my prior playthrus where I didn't romance him, when I got to my playthru where I romanced him... I um...
As a gay man I found his romance horribly stereotypical to the point of being offensive, and when compared to how Awesome the romance with Sam Traynor is with FemShep it is all the more obvious just how bad it was.

To me it felt like a str8 dude was writing it like "uh yeh what do gay dudes like?" and then put in every gay stereotype he could think of that would fit with Cortez' established character. And frankly I feel that the only reason Cortez himself wasn't a horrible stereotype of a gay (in that we wasn't effeminate, and screamingly camp) is because he was in the military.
In every other way he and his romance was a stereotype, that i thought bordered on offensive.

If the DA team goes the route of Cortez for the "gay" character/romance; I won't buy DA3 at all. And I am not kidding. (As at the moment the plan is to wait for post release reviews before buying it)

[CuriousArtemis]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

I think that's how I was reading her response. And I like I said, it seems to come from the mindset that a person's sexuality is a very definitive part of who s/he is. 

It's just hard for me to think like that since I rarely think of a person's sexuality. 

I'm just confused why "Merrill being straight" is a stronger characterization than "Merrill is hero-sexual." She is still the same character with the same story arc.

Well, someone like Cortez can't reference his husband if he's "hero-sexual" and I applaud the ME guys for incorporating Cortez's backstory in there and while it made me (Allan, the player) go "oh hey!" (because I have limited experience with a gay man being that open) I loved that Shepard didn't even blink an eye.  It meant that that type of relationship was so common it wasn't even noteworthy, which is a strong message to convey.

Yes, he could. Why couldn't he? Why couldn't Steve have a husband if he were romance-able by both FemShep and GuyShep? Doesn't Anders love Karl no matter who he dates? Or is it true that the writers erased his relationship with Karl when he's with FemHawke?

NOTE: I'm not saying that Steve and Samantha weren't important characters in the history of LGBT gaming.

Modifié par motomotogirl, 08 octobre 2012 - 04:35 .

[EricHVela]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...


Well, someone like Cortez can't reference his husband if he's "hero-sexual" and I applaud the ME guys for incorporating Cortez's backstory in there and while it made me (Allan, the player) go "oh hey!" (because I have limited experience with a gay man being that open) I loved that Shepard didn't even blink an eye.  It meant that that type of relationship was so common it wasn't even noteworthy, which is a strong message to convey.

A little off topic Allan but can I ask if you actually pursued the romance with Steve?

I ask because while I really liked Cortez (and Traynor) in my prior playthrus where I didn't romance him, when I got to my playthru where I romanced him... I um...
As a gay man I found his romance horribly stereotypical to the point of being offensive, and when compared to how Awesome the romance with Sam Traynor is with FemShep it is all the more obvious just how bad it was.

To me it felt like a str8 dude was writing it like "uh yeh what do gay dudes like?" and then put in every gay stereotype he could think of that would fit with Cortez' established character. And frankly I feel that the only reason Cortez himself wasn't a horrible stereotype of a gay (in that we wasn't effeminate, and screamingly camp) is because he was in the military.
In every other way he and his romance was a stereotype, that i thought bordered on offensive.

If the DA team goes the route of Cortez for the "gay" character/romance; I won't buy DA3 at all. And I am not kidding. (As at the moment the plan is to wait for post release reviews before buying it)

I didn't mind Cortez's as much as broShep+Kaidan. It seemed like Kaidan was talking to a woman and like broShep didn't know how to respond talking to a guy talking to him like he's a woman.

Yeah. Cortez was crying and mopy at one moment and then flirty at the next, but I didn't see it so much as a stereotype. Guys cry when remembering their wives. Guys can have trouble letting go when they lose someone they love.

Yet after your protagonist gets him past his past, the romance flows as awkward like the others (even Traynor's). Some more awkward like doing it behind crates and Kaidan talking to a woman regardless of Shep's gender and other less awkward, but still all awkward in my opinion. Too sudden to "lock in" and too suddenly forgotten until the sex scene and again until the goodbyes.

[Kidd]

How did Kaidan talk to a woman when romancing BroShep? I don't remember any pronoun mistakes.

[randomcheeses]

bleetman wrote...

Whenever someone says "only if it fits their character", for some reason I always read it as "only if they fit my decidely narrow perception as to how a homosexual person behaves, which is entirely generated by my own biases and preconceptions".

It's strange, really.

Yep, that happens to me too. Weird.

[Potato Cat]

Being pansexual myself, I have absolutely no problem with characters being hero-sexual or anything for that matter, (within reason), just as long as they are interesting and engaging characters who I have strong opinions about. perfect example would be Anders, I really hated him in Dragon Age 2, (or rather, what Justice/Vengence made him), because he was just so whiney and annoying, but he he did have some redeeming qualities. That wouldn't have been possible if he was just a 2-D character like some characters are in some other games, or if he was just a horrible, horrible person, (like Phelps from L.A. Noire).

But what I really hate is the retconning of Ander's sexuality from Awakening to Dragon Age 2. Throughout the course of Awakening, he mentioned several times he wanted to settle down with a pretty girl and I also believe, there was a bit of flirting between him and a female Warden and Velanna. But if you then played Dragon Age 2 as a male Hawke, suddenly, Anders was homosexual, not heterosexual, and apparently recently lost his virginity to Karl. You can't really say he was closeted since there isn't really any social stigma about homosexuality in Thedas, (maybe slightly among elves, but they are a dying race after all. Oh and nobility and such, but rich people are weird), nor bisexual because he doesn't mention Karl in THAT way to a female Hawke for the exact same reason. Yeah, that annoyed me. Other than that, I think Bioware handles romances very well, and whether or not they choose to have hero-sexual companions or not, I'll be happy, so long as retconning sexualities doesn't rear its head again.

[bleetman]

I wasn't aware that I would have to explicity inform everybody I ever meet of my occasional attraction to other men in order for it to be actually true.

[syllogi]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...


Well, someone like Cortez can't reference his husband if he's "hero-sexual" and I applaud the ME guys for incorporating Cortez's backstory in there and while it made me (Allan, the player) go "oh hey!" (because I have limited experience with a gay man being that open) I loved that Shepard didn't even blink an eye.  It meant that that type of relationship was so common it wasn't even noteworthy, which is a strong message to convey.

A little off topic Allan but can I ask if you actually pursued the romance with Steve?

I ask because while I really liked Cortez (and Traynor) in my prior playthrus where I didn't romance him, when I got to my playthru where I romanced him... I um...
As a gay man I found his romance horribly stereotypical to the point of being offensive, and when compared to how Awesome the romance with Sam Traynor is with FemShep it is all the more obvious just how bad it was.

To me it felt like a str8 dude was writing it like "uh yeh what do gay dudes like?" and then put in every gay stereotype he could think of that would fit with Cortez' established character. And frankly I feel that the only reason Cortez himself wasn't a horrible stereotype of a gay (in that we wasn't effeminate, and screamingly camp) is because he was in the military.
In every other way he and his romance was a stereotype, that i thought bordered on offensive.

If the DA team goes the route of Cortez for the "gay" character/romance; I won't buy DA3 at all. And I am not kidding. (As at the moment the plan is to wait for post release reviews before buying it)

I felt much the same way about the Traynor romance.  When not romancing her, the character seems very nice, and I REALLY wanted a human female same sex romance in ME3, but after seeing how the romance is activated with her, and the shower scene itself, I was incredibly disappointed.  I honestly don't understand how they could have though that the silly, softcore porn scenario was a good idea, and how it could possibly be seen as respectful of one of the two same sex romances the ME3 devs were supposedly so proud of.  It's a joke.  A corny, crass joke.  Pardon me if I don't want to feel the same way about any DA3 same sex romances.

Every time I hear someone say that they like the way the same sex romances were done in ME3, I really want to know if they actually did play through the romances, and if they did, did they feel the need to "headcanon" more substance to them?  Because while the characters were nice, the romances were not at all worthy of being emulated.

Modifié par syllogi, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:25 .

[scootermcgaffin]

Elfman wrote...

Being pansexual myself, I have absolutely no problem with characters being hero-sexual or anything for that matter, (within reason), just as long as they are interesting and engaging characters who I have strong opinions about. perfect example would be Anders, I really hated him in Dragon Age 2, (or rather, what Justice/Vengence made him), because he was just so whiney and annoying, but he he did have some redeeming qualities. That wouldn't have been possible if he was just a 2-D character like some characters are in some other games, or if he was just a horrible, horrible person, (like Phelps from L.A. Noire).

But what I really hate is the retconning of Ander's sexuality from Awakening to Dragon Age 2. Throughout the course of Awakening, he mentioned several times he wanted to settle down with a pretty girl and I also believe, there was a bit of flirting between him and a female Warden and Velanna. But if you then played Dragon Age 2 as a male Hawke, suddenly, Anders was homosexual, not heterosexual, and apparently recently lost his virginity to Karl. You can't really say he was closeted since there isn't really any social stigma about homosexuality in Thedas, (maybe slightly among elves, but they are a dying race after all. Oh and nobility and such, but rich people are weird), nor bisexual because he doesn't mention Karl in THAT way to a female Hawke for the exact same reason. Yeah, that annoyed me. Other than that, I think Bioware handles romances very well, and whether or not they choose to have hero-sexual companions or not, I'll be happy, so long as retconning sexualities doesn't rear its head again.

Anders says Karl is the first guy he was ever with, not the first person he was ever with. He still talks about being with women if you're romancing him as a dude--there's even a banter implying he got it on with Isabela at the Pearl in Denerim.

[Quicksilver26]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
Homosexuality (if you want to talk about sexuality in black and
white terms like ****** and hetero) has always made up about 10% of the
population throughout history in pretty much every society.

And given that 10% is already quite generous, it would be completely unreasonable to expect to have even one homosexual companion. It is certainly fine to have homosexual companions in games now and then, but having at least one romanceable potentially lesbian and one romanceable potentially gay companion when there's about five romance-choices in total is ridiculous.

If a gay romance option fits a character, that's fine. If not, just leave it out. It would've been much better to make Anders a gay guy (and by that I mean exclusively gay) and Fenris exlusively heterosexual.

Realism is more important than pandering to a minority.

Ok where do i sart? Let's go with yes 10% of the REAL WORLD might gay but THEDAS is NOT THE REAL WORLD. Thedas is a say it with me now A FICTIONAL WORLD set in a fictional medieval times it DOES NOT have to reflect the way THIS  WORLD WORKS. We do not no how sexuality  is set up in THEDAS for all we know 10% of them are straight and the rest might by lgbt. My point is don't judge THEDAS by real world stuff cause it is NOT REAL ITS A DAMN FANTASY(oh and ps. sexuality has nothing to do with personality)

[EricHVela]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

How did Kaidan talk to a woman when romancing BroShep? I don't remember any pronoun mistakes.

Hmm. Me, neither.

That's because he didn't use any.

Not sure if trolling or just unaware of what you just said.

Kaidan says the exact same things to femShep (and some extra stuff, too) in the same way that he says it to broShep. One of those situations sounds like he's talking to the person in front of him. The other sounds like he's talking to the other person that's not in front of him because he is still talking to femShep regardless.