243 réponses à ce sujet

[Fallstar]

In our society (I can only speak for Western society), it used to be a big deal, and there were often negative connotations, if you weren't heterosexual. I guess it was because certain dominant religions told people they'd go to hell etc. if they had sex with people of the same sex. Now we live in a (hopefully) more enlightened time and not being heterosexual isn't the end of the world anymore (in the majority of cases at least).

But what makes people think that in Thedas they'd have gone through that "Hetero or else" phase at all? Does the chantry condemn bi/****** sexuality? Perhaps being bisexual or homosexual in Thedas isn't anything unusual at all. Zevran and Isabella both freely talk about their same sex experiences, but people don't seem to care. 

So whilst some people are claiming it is 'unrealistic' for all the companions to be bisexual based on the time DA is set in, it might not be.

As for 'hero' sexualism, I personally don't like it. I have no problem with all of the companions being bisexual, but in DA2 they weren't. Anders and Isabella are bisexual, Merril and Fenris are herosexual. That said, I think there are far bigger issues which need working on, so if herosexual companions saves time to work on other things, by all means.

[Dirgegun]

 Jack Harkness comes from a time when everyone is bisexual -- or at least they don't care at all, and no one complains about that. 

/Torchwood appriciation post

Modifié par Dirgegun, 09 octobre 2012 - 01:33 .

[Kidd]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

OK, now I'm confused.  The writers dictate the lore, but their intentions have nothing to do with it?

All I meant is that lore-wise, it's by no means immoral or anything of the sort in Thedas. Why it's been written like that is irrelevant to the world itself, really. Writer motivation only exists out-of-world and thus doesn't matter to the in-universe lore. Get what I mean? =)

[The Uncanny]

DuskWarden wrote...

In our society (I can only speak for Western society), it used to be a big deal, and there were often negative connotations, if you weren't heterosexual. I guess it was because certain dominant religions told people they'd go to hell etc. if they had sex with people of the same sex. Now we live in a (hopefully) more enlightened time and not being heterosexual isn't the end of the world anymore (in the majority of cases at least).

But what makes people think that in Thedas they'd have gone through that "Hetero or else" phase at all? Does the chantry condemn bi/****** sexuality? Perhaps being bisexual or homosexual in Thedas isn't anything unusual at all. Zevran and Isabella both freely talk about their same sex experiences, but people don't seem to care. 

So whilst some people are claiming it is 'unrealistic' for all the companions to be bisexual based on the time DA is set in, it might not be.

As for 'hero' sexualism, I personally don't like it. I have no problem with all of the companions being bisexual, but in DA2 they weren't. Anders and Isabella are bisexual, Merril and Fenris are herosexual. That said, I think there are far bigger issues which need working on, so if herosexual companions saves time to work on other things, by all means.

Great post. I have to agree with just about every word of that. 

[Terrorize69]

Dirgegun wrote...

 Jack Harkness comes from a time when everyone is bisexual -- or at least they don't care at all, and no one complains about that. 

/Torchwood appriciation post

Where ever Jack Harkness goes, the locals soon come out for him.

[Terrorize69]

The Uncanny wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

In our society (I can only speak for Western society), it used to be a big deal, and there were often negative connotations, if you weren't heterosexual. I guess it was because certain dominant religions told people they'd go to hell etc. if they had sex with people of the same sex. Now we live in a (hopefully) more enlightened time and not being heterosexual isn't the end of the world anymore (in the majority of cases at least).

But what makes people think that in Thedas they'd have gone through that "Hetero or else" phase at all? Does the chantry condemn bi/****** sexuality? Perhaps being bisexual or homosexual in Thedas isn't anything unusual at all. Zevran and Isabella both freely talk about their same sex experiences, but people don't seem to care. 

So whilst some people are claiming it is 'unrealistic' for all the companions to be bisexual based on the time DA is set in, it might not be.

As for 'hero' sexualism, I personally don't like it. I have no problem with all of the companions being bisexual, but in DA2 they weren't. Anders and Isabella are bisexual, Merril and Fenris are herosexual. That said, I think there are far bigger issues which need working on, so if herosexual companions saves time to work on other things, by all means.

Great post. I have to agree with just about every word of that. 

Ditto'd.

I also recall a few chantry members being gay/bi. Obviously its widely accepted.

When ever someone claims that something is not "realistic" in a fantasy game/world/setting. I facepalm and die a bit inside each time.

Everyone/most people being bi is unrealistic, but demons, magic, corrupted gods are part of every day normal life?

Seriously.. grow up.

[Overlord_Mephist]

Biotic Sage wrote...

So when I have knowledge that Isabela is an open-minded, sexually adventurous individual, nothing clashes when I romance her with a male character in one playthrough and a female character in another.  Nothing is at odds with her character here; it would be weird if she DIDN'T hit on you because her intense sex drive is a huge part of her character.  On the other hand, for a gay character to be truly represented, that character needs to have a personality that matches up with the fact that he/she has lived his/her life as a gay man/woman.  If someone only is attracted to and has sex with women, that is a unique life experience that is going to influence his/her personality and viewpoints.  Of course your sex and sexuality doesn't completely inform who you are as a person, but these things cannot be disregarded when talking about identity.  So when the writers write a character and ALL of the lines and behaviors are the same EXCEPT that character's sexual behavior, that comes off as strange to me when I do multiple playthroughs.  Not only that, it's kind of...I don't want to say "insulting" because I feel that's too strong of a word...but it's kind of..."demonstating an incomplete understanding of sexuality and identity" that I feel is doing a disservice to the LGBT community.

All of sudden I'm having flashbacks of a study published by a university professor on the word patterns of psychopaths.

Idontwanttoliveonthisplanetanymore.jpg

[Dirgegun]

Overlord_Mephist wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

So when I have knowledge that Isabela is an open-minded, sexually adventurous individual, nothing clashes when I romance her with a male character in one playthrough and a female character in another.  Nothing is at odds with her character here; it would be weird if she DIDN'T hit on you because her intense sex drive is a huge part of her character.  On the other hand, for a gay character to be truly represented, that character needs to have a personality that matches up with the fact that he/she has lived his/her life as a gay man/woman.  If someone only is attracted to and has sex with women, that is a unique life experience that is going to influence his/her personality and viewpoints.  Of course your sex and sexuality doesn't completely inform who you are as a person, but these things cannot be disregarded when talking about identity.  So when the writers write a character and ALL of the lines and behaviors are the same EXCEPT that character's sexual behavior, that comes off as strange to me when I do multiple playthroughs.  Not only that, it's kind of...I don't want to say "insulting" because I feel that's too strong of a word...but it's kind of..."demonstating an incomplete understanding of sexuality and identity" that I feel is doing a disservice to the LGBT community.

All of sudden I'm having flashbacks of a study published by a university professor on the word patterns of psychopaths.

Idontwanttoliveonthisplanetanymore.jpg

I'm tempted to assume most of these aguments are coming from straight people that don't really understand sexuality. I mean does being straight effect personality? 

I wonder what chaos would occur if any of the LIs identify as demisexual or a romantic asexual? 

Edit for better wording.

Modifié par Dirgegun, 09 octobre 2012 - 02:32 .

[scootermcgaffin]

Dirgegun wrote...

I'm tempted to assume most of these aguments are coming from straight people that don't really understand sexuality. I mean does being straight effect personality?

Yes. Sexuality has a huge impact on a person's sexuality. Signed, the gay dude who has taken quite a few human sexuality courses.

Dirgegun wrote...

I wonder what chaos would occur if any of the LIs identify as demisexual or a romantic asexual? 

Edit for better wording.

Sebastian was, within the game at least, a heteroromantic asexual.

[Kail Ashton]

i clicked on this solely out of morbid curiosity as to what s/s is, i know m/m is male on male & f/f is female on female and there's already A TON OF THOSE so clearly this topic couldn't possibly be another "me too!" in a pile of threads on the same subject, no, no, no clearly s/s must mean something else, but what?

[Sable Rhapsody]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

OK, now I'm confused.  The writers dictate the lore, but their intentions have nothing to do with it?

All I meant is that lore-wise, it's by no means immoral or anything of the sort in Thedas. Why it's been written like that is irrelevant to the world itself, really. Writer motivation only exists out-of-world and thus doesn't matter to the in-universe lore. Get what I mean? =)

I follow.  And I agree.  I just also think we shouldn't read too much into what little there is in-game regarding the social atmosphere surrounding s/s relationships.  Then again, BSN does exist for the purpose of wild speculation 

[Lennard Testarossa]

Quicksilver26 wrote...

Ok where do i sart? Let's go with yes 10% of the REAL WORLD might gay but THEDAS is NOT THE REAL WORLD. Thedas is a say it with me now A FICTIONAL WORLD set in a fictional medieval times it DOES NOT have to reflect the way THIS  WORLD WORKS. We do not no how sexuality  is set up in THEDAS for all we know 10% of them are straight and the rest might by lgbt. My point is don't judge THEDAS by real world stuff cause it is NOT REAL ITS A DAMN FANTASY(oh and ps. sexuality has nothing to do with personality)

Everything we've seen in Theads in the first two games implies homosexuality isn't significantly more common in Thedas than in the real world. And 10% is much higher than most serious estimates, the reality is probably much closer to 5%. But for the sake of argument, let's go with 10% in Thedas. If we have a total of four LIs, there'd be a 65% chance of there not being a single homosexual among them. The chance of having at least two homosexuals among them is about 5%. So having four LIs and two homosexuals among these two LIs is simply unreasonable.

Terrorize69 wrote...

When ever someone claims that something is not "realistic" in a fantasy
game/world/setting. I facepalm and die a bit inside each time.

The old argument: "It has dragons, so it doesn't have to make any sense."

[Dirgegun]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Yes. Sexuality has a huge impact on a person's sexuality. Signed, the gay dude who has taken quite a few human sexuality courses.

I meant personality. My sexuality has zero impact on my personality, for example?

Sebastian was, within the game at least, a heteroromantic asexual.

Sebastian was a heterosexual male who didn't want to have sex until Marriage or something. He isn't asexual, though. In fact he was a complete playboy before he took his vows.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Dirgegun wrote...
I meant personality. My sexuality has zero impact on my personality, for example?

This was addressed earlier in the thread.  TL;DR--sexuality is an important factor, though not a defining one, in who someone is.

Political correctness.  One day it'll have us all saying personality has nothing to do with personality.

[scootermcgaffin]

Dirgegun wrote...

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Yes. Sexuality has a huge impact on a person's sexuality. Signed, the gay dude who has taken quite a few human sexuality courses.

I meant personality. My sexuality has zero impact on my personality, for example?

I meant personality as well, sorry. Typo on my part that ruined my point.  Sorry for that.

And yes, your sexuality has a huge impact on your personality. 

[Quicksilver26]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Quicksilver26 wrote...

Ok where do i sart? Let's go with yes 10% of the REAL WORLD might gay but THEDAS is NOT THE REAL WORLD. Thedas is a say it with me now A FICTIONAL WORLD set in a fictional medieval times it DOES NOT have to reflect the way THIS  WORLD WORKS. We do not no how sexuality  is set up in THEDAS for all we know 10% of them are straight and the rest might by lgbt. My point is don't judge THEDAS by real world stuff cause it is NOT REAL ITS A DAMN FANTASY(oh and ps. sexuality has nothing to do with personality)

Everything we've seen in Theads in the first two games implies homosexuality isn't significantly more common in Thedas than in the real world. And 10% is much higher than most serious estimates, the reality is probably much closer to 5%. But for the sake of argument, let's go with 10% in Thedas. If we have a total of four LIs, there'd be a 65% chance of there not being a single homosexual among them. The chance of having at least two homosexuals among them is about 5%. So having four LIs and two homosexuals among these two LIs is simply unreasonable.

Terrorize69 wrote...

When ever someone claims that something is not "realistic" in a fantasy
game/world/setting. I facepalm and die a bit inside each time.

The old argument: "It has dragons, so it doesn't have to make any sense."

ok cause it wasn't clear i don't think that 10% are straight in Thedas that was me being melodramaticno one said there was a set amount of gays or straights in Thedas nor should there be can you tell me the odds that 4 people would be in love or able to fall in love with one person at any give time if we are gonna talk about realism how is it in a group of 7 or 8 that 4 of them will want the pc it's just  a game set in a fantasy world so chill and stop trying to put your views in and trying to tell "them" what they can and can not do because of realism

[Dirgegun]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...
I meant personality. My sexuality has zero impact on my personality, for example?

This was addressed earlier in the thread.  TL;DR--sexuality is an important factor, though not a defining one, in who someone is.

Political correctness.  One day it'll have us all saying personality has nothing to do with personality.

I see. I was just responding to all those arguments that make it sound like sexuality = personality literally with no other factors coming into it, but it seems I'm late to that party. Oops. ^^;

Though I don't feel sexuality has impact on my personality, personally. I'm an awkward person, though. 

...Personality not having anything to do with personality sounds like it would... uh... be one hell of a confusing thesis. 

Modifié par Dirgegun, 09 octobre 2012 - 04:07 .

[David Gaider]

DuskWarden wrote...
In our society (I can only speak for Western society), it used to be a big deal, and there were often negative connotations, if you weren't heterosexual. I guess it was because certain dominant religions told people they'd go to hell etc. if they had sex with people of the same sex. Now we live in a (hopefully) more enlightened time and not being heterosexual isn't the end of the world anymore (in the majority of cases at least).

But what makes people think that in Thedas they'd have gone through that "Hetero or else" phase at all? Does the chantry condemn bi/****** sexuality? Perhaps being bisexual or homosexual in Thedas isn't anything unusual at all. Zevran and Isabella both freely talk about their same sex experiences, but people don't seem to care. 

So whilst some people are claiming it is 'unrealistic' for all the companions to be bisexual based on the time DA is set in, it might not be.

There is a strange divide between things that someone considers "acceptably unrealistic" and "unacceptably ahistorical" in a fantasy game. My impression is that the actual fantasy elements (such as magic) are fine, but anything which exists in our own world (such as sexuality) must be closely analogous to medieval history or it's simply beyond the pale.

Which rather underlines the fact that many people don't know very much about medieval history. They get it mixed up with the Renaissance, or perhaps some strange mixture of the Renaissance and medieval times (which looks something like a Ren Fair, I gather). And this is, of course, only when it's a difference that they personally dislike. Even if you pointed out to them the historical actuality, they'd still come up with some other reason why it's not a good thing... because such reasons are always more valid than admitting personal bias, evidently.

As for 'hero' sexualism, I personally don't like it. I have no problem with all of the companions being bisexual, but in DA2 they weren't. Anders and Isabella are bisexual, Merril and Fenris are herosexual. That said, I think there are far bigger issues which need working on, so if herosexual companions saves time to work on other things, by all means.

As I've said before, I too would prefer set sexualities if all things were equal-- if I had enough resources that "realism" could be my biggest concern (ignoring for the moment how very subjective that is). But they're rarely equal, and in the case of DA2 simple fairness won out. As it should. I get that some people felt weird (for whatever reason) when they found out a character could romance someone of a different gender in another game... but I will not count that as being more important than allowing players a simple choice in who they romance, provided that it doesn't impact our ability to write the character. And it does not.

As for what our plans are for S/S romances in DA3, we've not discussed it. And we will not, probably for quite some time. I can, however, safely say that whatever changes we make will not be derived from concerns over "unrealistic bisexuality" or the veiled (and sometimes not-so-veiled) homophobia that crops up here from time to time. Our primary concerns are fairness, fun and (above all) making good characters that you'd want to romance (if you were so inclined to romance anyone, as it will always be an optional element).

And that's all there is to it. A statement I expect to make numerous times as versions of this thread keep cropping up. I look forward to the day when this sort of content is simply taken as a given, rather than used as fodder for awkward arguments.

Modifié par David Gaider, 09 octobre 2012 - 04:10 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Dirgegun wrote...
I see. I was just responding to all those arguments that make it sound like sexuality = personality literally with no other factors coming into it, but it seems I'm late to that party. Oops. ^^;

Nah, that's just a strawman argument.  Also, the degree to which sexuality affects your personality will always vary from person to person.  You might not feel it as much in your day-to-day life.  I live a stone's throw away from West Hollywood, CA, a major LGBT center.  Sexuality affects everything from clothes to social gentrification to personality around here 

[Rinji the Bearded]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Everything we've seen in Theads in the first two games implies homosexuality isn't significantly more common in Thedas than in the real world. And 10% is much higher than most serious estimates, the reality is probably much closer to 5%. But for the sake of argument, let's go with 10% in Thedas. If we have a total of four LIs, there'd be a 65% chance of there not being a single homosexual among them. The chance of having at least two homosexuals among them is about 5%. So having four LIs and two homosexuals among these two LIs is simply unreasonable.

The old argument: "It has dragons, so it doesn't have to make any sense."

This is where I beat you with the logic bat.

1)  What have we seen in Thedas that would suggest anything about the percentages of straight vs gay/whatever?  We've only seen a small fraction of the world, and NO CHARACTER/CODEX has ever discussed or taken issue with the number of heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual/etc people in the world. 

2) Let's not apply real world terms and numberes to define the sexuality of a fictional world, k?  Chances are that labels don't even apply to the people of Thedas the way they do in the real world.

3) Even if gay people only compromised 5% of the Thedas population, it would still be possible for all the LIs to be something other than heterosexual.  The LIs are not representations and are not convenient cross-sections of Thedas's sexuality.  Saying a very small number of people  can't reasonably be bisexual/gay is a silly argument, because I can assure you there are more than four gay/bisexual people that exist.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 09 octobre 2012 - 04:16 .

[The Uncanny]

David Gaider wrote...

I look forward to the day when this sort of content is simply taken as a given, rather than used as fodder for awkward arguments.

David Gaider, I love you.

[Dirgegun]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...
I see. I was just responding to all those arguments that make it sound like sexuality = personality literally with no other factors coming into it, but it seems I'm late to that party. Oops. ^^;

Nah, that's just a strawman argument.  Also, the degree to which sexuality affects your personality will always vary from person to person.  You might not feel it as much in your day-to-day life.  I live a stone's throw away from West Hollywood, CA, a major LGBT center.  Sexuality affects everything from clothes to social gentrification to personality around here 

Ah, I didn't even think of the location of people when it comes to that, though I should have. Either way just know I support the option! 

Edit: David Gaider = love. So eloquant! 

Modifié par Dirgegun, 09 octobre 2012 - 04:15 .

[upsettingshorts]

My opinion on the matter is relatively baseless and therefore not worth holding on to, so I'm curious as to how the thread would answer:

If sexuality is an integral part of, or at least a major influence on, personality then how much do you think social consequences of being outside hetero-normative behavior is responsible for that?

Ergo, if there were no social consequences would sexuality still have a significant impact on personality?

I'm talking, in this respect, exclusively about sexual orientation.  As that is the subject of this thread and the discussion at hand.  There are of course other aspects to sexuality, such as a given individual's sex drive, that would quite clearly in my estimation contribute to ones' personality.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 octobre 2012 - 04:18 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
If sexuality is an integral part of, or at least a major influence on, personality then how much do you think social consequences of being outside hetero-normative behavior is responsible for that?

Ergo, if there were no social consequences would sexuality still have a significant impact on personality?

From neuroscience and social psychology, I'd say sexuality would still have some impact on romantic relationship dynamics--those differences usually stem from the simple biology of having two men or two women in a relationship rather than a man and a woman.  (Differences in sex drives, physical features, etc.  Don't know about transgender, sorry.)  Whether that extends to personality is anyone's guess.  And there is some evidence for minor biological differences between people of different sexualities, mainly in the nucleus accumbens of the brain.

Of course, environment and biology feed off each other, so there's no way to know if even the biological differences are a result of thousands of years of social behavior, or vice versa.  TL;DR--no idea, but it's an interesting thought experiment.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 octobre 2012 - 04:20 .

[Quicksilver26]

The Uncanny wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I look forward to the day when this sort of content is simply taken as a given, rather than used as fodder for awkward arguments.

David Gaider, I love you.

second Mr.Gaider you are the awesomest