243 réponses à ce sujet

[Quicksilver26]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Everything we've seen in Theads in the first two games implies homosexuality isn't significantly more common in Thedas than in the real world. And 10% is much higher than most serious estimates, the reality is probably much closer to 5%. But for the sake of argument, let's go with 10% in Thedas. If we have a total of four LIs, there'd be a 65% chance of there not being a single homosexual among them. The chance of having at least two homosexuals among them is about 5%. So having four LIs and two homosexuals among these two LIs is simply unreasonable.

The old argument: "It has dragons, so it doesn't have to make any sense."

This is where I beat you with the logic bat.

1)  What have we seen in Thedas that would suggest anything about the percentages of straight vs gay/whatever?  We've only seen a small fraction of the world, and NO CHARACTER/CODEX has ever discussed or taken issue with the number of heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual/etc people in the world. 

2) Let's not apply real world terms and numberes to define the sexuality of a fictional world, k?  Chances are that labels don't even apply to the people of Thedas the way they do in the real world.

3) Even if gay people only compromised 5% of the Thedas population, it would still be possible for all the LIs to be something other than heterosexual.  The LIs are not representations and are not convenient cross-sections of Thedas's sexuality.  Saying a very small number of people  can't reasonably be bisexual/gay is a silly argument, because I can assure you there are more than four gay/bisexual people that exist.

thank you:wizard:

[Knight of Dane]

My lecturer on Game Analasys says that the word "Realistic" shouldn't be mentioned with games.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Knight of Dane wrote...

My lecturer on Game Analasys says that the word "Realistic" shouldn't be mentioned with games.

Only when sexuality is concerned, apparently.  Everything else can be whatever it wants to be.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Knight of Dane wrote...

My lecturer on Game Analasys says that the word "Realistic" shouldn't be mentioned with games.

In terms of what?  Lore?  Gameplay?  There are some things in games like combat physics that benefit from realism.  Portal wouldn't work as a game if the physics were entirely unrealistic, even if some of the technology is out there.

[upsettingshorts]

Knight of Dane wrote...

My lecturer on Game Analasys says that the word "Realistic" shouldn't be mentioned with games.

OT:  I guess that's why the flight sim genre is dead, then?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 octobre 2012 - 04:30 .

[Terrorize69]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
The old argument: "It has dragons, so it doesn't have to make any sense."

Boldy put. But yes.

Seriously, how can "someone" judge or deem one aspect of a fantasy world as unrealistic, and another part as A-OK.

The whole idea of basing a game/book/film in a fantasy setting is to use the "unrealistic".

Be it dragons, magic or everyone is bi.

Although a time may come where everyone is bi. The world has become more accepting and adaptive as it grows.

[HiddenInWar]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

Dirgegun wrote...

I'm tempted to assume most of these aguments are coming from straight people that don't really understand sexuality. I mean does being straight effect personality?

Yes. Sexuality has a huge impact on a person's sexuality. Signed, the gay dude who has taken quite a few human sexuality courses.

Dirgegun wrote...

I wonder what chaos would occur if any of the LIs identify as demisexual or a romantic asexual? 

Edit for better wording.

Sebastian was, within the game at least, a heteroromantic asexual.

What were the human sexuality courses like? I can say I agree that it has an impact. I have no idea how, just going by my own personality. 

Modifié par HiddenInWar, 09 octobre 2012 - 04:44 .

[Knight of Dane]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

My lecturer on Game Analasys says that the word "Realistic" shouldn't be mentioned with games.

In terms of what?  Lore?  Gameplay?  There are some things in games like combat physics that benefit from realism.  Portal wouldn't work as a game if the physics were entirely unrealistic, even if some of the technology is out there.

As a analytic phrase.

[Knight of Dane]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

My lecturer on Game Analasys says that the word "Realistic" shouldn't be mentioned with games.

OT:  I guess that's why the flight sim genre is dead, then?

Everyone knows planes aren't real 

[HiddenInWar]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

My lecturer on Game Analasys says that the word "Realistic" shouldn't be mentioned with games.

OT:  I guess that's why the flight sim genre is dead, then?

Everyone knows planes aren't real 

 

My life is a lie...

[Nomen Mendax]

David Gaider wrote...

As I've said before, I too would prefer set sexualities if all things were equal-- if I had enough resources that "realism" could be my biggest concern (ignoring for the moment how very subjective that is). But they're rarely equal, and in the case of DA2 simple fairness won out. As it should. I get that some people felt weird (for whatever reason) when they found out a character could romance someone of a different gender in another game... but I will not count that as being more important than allowing players a simple choice in who they romance, provided that it doesn't impact our ability to write the character. And it does not.

As for what our plans are for S/S romances in DA3, we've not discussed it. And we will not, probably for quite some time. I can, however, safely say that whatever changes we make will not be derived from concerns over "unrealistic bisexuality" or the veiled (and sometimes not-so-veiled) homophobia that crops up here from time to time. Our primary concerns are fairness, fun and (above all) making good characters that you'd want to romance (if you were so inclined to romance anyone, as it will always be an optional element).

And that's all there is to it. A statement I expect to make numerous times as versions of this thread keep cropping up. I look forward to the day when this sort of content is simply taken as a given, rather than used as fodder for awkward arguments.

I spend most of my time on these forums moaning about dialogue wheels, paraphrasing, choices and player agency, so I just wanted to say that as far as I'm concerned you've got things right with the way you deal with romances, and I appreciate the work that you guys put into it.

[Lennard Testarossa]

RinjiRenee wrote...

This is where I beat you with the logic bat.

1)  What have we seen in Thedas that would suggest anything about the percentages of straight vs gay/whatever?  We've only seen a small fraction of the world, and NO CHARACTER/CODEX has ever discussed or taken issue with the number of heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual/etc people in the world.

2) Let's not apply real world terms and numberes to define the sexuality of a fictional world, k?  Chances are that labels don't even apply to the people of Thedas the way they do in the real world.

3) Even if gay people only compromised 5% of the Thedas population, it would still be possible for all the LIs to be something other than heterosexual.  The LIs are not representations and are not convenient cross-sections of Thedas's sexuality.  Saying a very small number of people  can't reasonably be bisexual/gay is a silly argument, because I can assure you there are more than four gay/bisexual people that exist.

1) It is a feudal society, in which marriage generally happens between a man and a woman with the intent to have children. We've seen and heard a lot about such marriages in DA. We've heard quite a lot about lovers and couples, the overwhelming majority of which we heard of so far consist of one male and one female. If being gay or bisexual were common, we would've seen some kind of evidence of that, especially given the fact that their society seems to be more open about homosexuality than our society was.

2) Chances are that they do. It is very rare for fantasy authors to make their humans differ significantly from real humans in terms of their general nature. It may very well be that they don't use the same labels as we do, but nothing indicates their sexuality is somehow completely different.

3)  Unless sexuality directly impacts the probability of ending up in the main character's company, the expected percentage of homosexuals in the party is the same as the percentage of homosexuals in the entire population. It is of course not impossible to find a lot of homosexuals in a small sample, but it is incredibly unlikely.

David Gaider wrote...
My impression is that the actual fantasy elements (such as magic) are
fine, but anything which exists in our own world (such as sexuality)
must be closely analogous to medieval history or it's simply beyond the
pale.

It is not about being analogous to medieval history, it is about being plausible. One can't just change certain aspects of humans or society without changing others. It is fine, albeit a little strange and uncommon, to change sexuality, but doing so while still keeping a conventional medieval feudal society is not.

I'm generally not very fond of the common trend among fantasy authors to create a society which is loosely based on medieval europe while superimposing a 21st-century egalitarian's view on social issues, even though such a view could not reasonably exist without our prosperity and technology.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 09 octobre 2012 - 05:56 .

[Knight of Dane]

HiddenInWar wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

My lecturer on Game Analasys says that the word "Realistic" shouldn't be mentioned with games.

OT:  I guess that's why the flight sim genre is dead, then?

Everyone knows planes aren't real 

 

My life is a lie...

*Pats shoulder*

[Rinji the Bearded]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

1) It is a feudal society, in which marriage generally happens between a man and a woman with the intent to have children. We've seen and heard a lot about such marriages in DA. We've heard quite a lot about lovers and couples, the overwhelming majority of which we heard of so far consist of one male and one female. If being gay or bisexual were common, we would've seen some kind of evidence of that, especially given the fact that their society seems to be more open about homosexuality than our society was.

2) Chances are that they do. It is very rare for fantasy authors to make their humans differ significantly from real humans in terms of their general nature. It may very well be that they don't use the same labels as we do, but nothing indicates their sexuality is somehow completely different.

3)  Unless sexuality directly impacts the probability of ending up in the main character's company, the expected percentage of homosexuals in the party is the same as the percentage of homosexuals in the entire population. It is of course not impossible to find a lot of homosexuals in a small sample, but it is incredibly unlikely.

1.  Marriage and love in Thedas have little to do with one another sometimes.  There is literally no stigma against homosexual relationships in Thedas.  You're also once again looking at the small percentage of people that we've been shown and assumed that all of those people are all straight.

2.  You'd be surprised to know that Thedas does not operate at all like the real world, present or past, when it comes to homosexuality.  Note that there is nothing in Chantry doctrine that speaks against it (ie, it's not a sin).  That's certainly not how homosexuality is viewed by all of the major religions of today.

3. Uhhhh you're still missing the point here.  The LIs do not and will never represent a percentage of straight/non-straight.  Sure, in the real world the chances are small, but that doesn't mean it'd be impossible or unrealistic.

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
My impression is that the actual fantasy elements (such as magic) are
fine, but anything which exists in our own world (such as sexuality)
must be closely analogous to medieval history or it's simply beyond the
pale.

It is not about being analogous to medieval history, it is about being plausible. One can't just change certain aspects of humans or society without changing others. It is fine, albeit a little strange and uncommon, to change sexuality, but doing so while still keeping a conventional medieval feudal society is not.

I'm generally not very fond of the common trend among fantasy authors to create a society which is loosely based on medieval europe while superimposing a 21st-century egalitarian's view on social issues, even though such a view could not reasonably exist without our prosperity and technology.

You not being generally fond of something =/= not good, it means this IP isn't for you.

I think you're going to continue to be disappointed in this IP, too.  You're operating under this strange notion that fantasy can't somehow have its own societal norms outside of real life history.  In Thedas, women are allowed to hold seats of power, and people aren't shunned for loving someone of the same sex.  That's how Dragon Age is always going to be, and I doubt anyone crying for more realism in their fantasy RPG is going to get what they want.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 09 octobre 2012 - 06:37 .

[Quatre]

The Uncanny wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I look forward to the day when this sort of content is simply taken as a given, rather than used as fodder for awkward arguments.

David Gaider, I love you.

*signed*

[Battlebloodmage]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

This is where I beat you with the logic bat.

1)  What have we seen in Thedas that would suggest anything about the percentages of straight vs gay/whatever?  We've only seen a small fraction of the world, and NO CHARACTER/CODEX has ever discussed or taken issue with the number of heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual/etc people in the world.

2) Let's not apply real world terms and numberes to define the sexuality of a fictional world, k?  Chances are that labels don't even apply to the people of Thedas the way they do in the real world.

3) Even if gay people only compromised 5% of the Thedas population, it would still be possible for all the LIs to be something other than heterosexual.  The LIs are not representations and are not convenient cross-sections of Thedas's sexuality.  Saying a very small number of people  can't reasonably be bisexual/gay is a silly argument, because I can assure you there are more than four gay/bisexual people that exist.

1) It is a feudal society, in which marriage generally happens between a man and a woman with the intent to have children. We've seen and heard a lot about such marriages in DA. We've heard quite a lot about lovers and couples, the overwhelming majority of which we heard of so far consist of one male and one female. If being gay or bisexual were common, we would've seen some kind of evidence of that, especially given the fact that their society seems to be more open about homosexuality than our society was.

2) Chances are that they do. It is very rare for fantasy authors to make their humans differ significantly from real humans in terms of their general nature. It may very well be that they don't use the same labels as we do, but nothing indicates their sexuality is somehow completely different.

3)  Unless sexuality directly impacts the probability of ending up in the main character's company, the expected percentage of homosexuals in the party is the same as the percentage of homosexuals in the entire population. It is of course not impossible to find a lot of homosexuals in a small sample, but it is incredibly unlikely.

David Gaider wrote...
My impression is that the actual fantasy elements (such as magic) are
fine, but anything which exists in our own world (such as sexuality)
must be closely analogous to medieval history or it's simply beyond the
pale.

It is not about being analogous to medieval history, it is about being plausible. One can't just change certain aspects of humans or society without changing others. It is fine, albeit a little strange and uncommon, to change sexuality, but doing so while still keeping a conventional medieval feudal society is not.

I'm generally not very fond of the common trend among fantasy authors to create a society which is loosely based on medieval europe while superimposing a 21st-century egalitarian's view on social issues, even though such a view could not reasonably exist without our prosperity and technology.

There are quite a few gay couples in Thedas

Julien and Nicolas
Branka and Hespith
Herren and Wade
Leliana and Majolaine
Anders and Karl

It's not that uncommon. The love interest as David Gaider had pointed out many times are often not "bisexuality" but "hero-sexuality" (As some people tend to coin the term  <_< )

The world is inspired by the Medieval Europe, not based on it, so kinda strange when you keep referring to their view on marriage like fire-breathing dragon or darkspawns are part of that history. The sexuality of the characters could be more like the ancient Greek culture in which sexuality is more fluid. I don't like how people pick and choose which part is be realistic and grounded in reality to them.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 09 octobre 2012 - 06:43 .

[Battlebloodmage]

Quatre04 wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I look forward to the day when this sort of content is simply taken as a given, rather than used as fodder for awkward arguments.

David Gaider, I love you.

*signed*

Hey David, you're so fine, you're so fine, you blow my mind, hey David, hey David.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 09 octobre 2012 - 06:39 .

[h0neanias]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
I'm generally not very fond of the common trend among fantasy authors to create a society which is loosely based on medieval europe while superimposing a 21st-century egalitarian's view on social issues, even though such a view could not reasonably exist without our prosperity and technology.

First, I vehemently disagree that the point of fantasy is to rehash each and every horrible mistake of our own past. Fantasy should be more than just "history with magic". It should draw you in, make you want to be there, even if survival might not be easy. But that's why there are heroes -- they carry us through; they show us that a way through is possible.

Second, even if we do take our history into account, your conclusion about prosperity isn't a valid one. While 21st century egalitarianism as an ideology may indeed feel out of place in a fantasy game, certain egalitarian modes of conduct did exist. The Native American attitude towards non-heterosexuality is well known. There were many more societies with at least tolerant views -- the Celts, the Ancient Greeks, or the Japanese, to name a few. Another example -- women in Ancient Egypt had legal equality with men. In fact, another society as homophobic and sexist as Medieval Europe is hard to find.

Modifié par h0neanias, 09 octobre 2012 - 07:14 .

[Battlebloodmage]

h0neanias wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
I'm generally not very fond of the common trend among fantasy authors to create a society which is loosely based on medieval europe while superimposing a 21st-century egalitarian's view on social issues, even though such a view could not reasonably exist without our prosperity and technology.

First, I vehemently disagree that the point of fantasy is to rehash each and every horrible mistake of our own past. Fantasy should be more than just "history with magic". It should draw you in, make you want to be there, even if survival might not be easy. But that's why there are heroes -- they carry us through; they show us that a way through is possible.

Second, even if we do take our history into account, your conclusion about prosperity isn't a valid one. While 21st century egalitarianism as an ideology may indeed feel out of place in a fantasy game, certain egalitarian modes of conduct did exist. The Native American attitude towards non-heterosexuality is well known. There were many more societies with at least tolerant views -- the Celts, the Ancient Greeks, or the Japanese, to name a few. Another example -- women in Ancient Egypt had legal equality with men. In fact, another society as homophobic and sexist as Medieval Europe is hard to find.

You have never lived in the Middle Eastern countries, just saying.

[h0neanias]

Battlebloodmage wrote...
You have never lived in the Middle Eastern countries, just saying.

I'm well aware of them, that's why I wrote "hard to find" (meaning "rare", metaphorically speaking) not "impossible to find" (meaning "non-existent"). I consider the hardline Islamic countries of today a single society in this regard.

Modifié par h0neanias, 09 octobre 2012 - 07:38 .

[Lennard Testarossa]

RinjiRenee wrote...
1.  Marriage and love in Thedas have little to do with one another sometimes.  There is literally no stigma against homosexual relationships in Thedas.  You're also once again looking at the small percentage of people that we've been shown and assumed that all of thosepeople are all straight.

I did not assume anything. If you look at all the relationships we see in Thedas and compare the number of heterosexual ones and homosexual ones, you find that homosexuality is just about as common in Thedas as it is in our world (why should it be any different, anyhow?). And yes, I do assume that the percentage of people we've seen is somewhat representative of Thedas (or at least their country). The sample we've seen isn't all that small. Unless Bioware has been intentionally misleading us, the assumption is quite reasonable.
So yeah

Battlebloodmage wrote...
There are quite a few gay couples in Thedas

Julien and Nicolas
Branka and Hespith
Herren and Wade
Leliana and Majolaine
Anders and Karl

It's not that uncommon.

they're not all that uncommon, but they're not all that common either.

RinjiRenee wrote...
2. You'd be surprised to know that Thedas does not operate at all like the real world, present or past, when it comes to homosexuality.  Note that there is nothing in Chantry doctrine that speaks against it (ie, it's not a sin).  That's certainly not how homosexuality is viewed by all of the major religions of today.

I never claimed that they see homosexuality the same way. I was talking about their sexuality itself, not about how society sees it.

RinjiRenee wrote...
3. Uhhhh you're still missing the point here.  The LIs do not and will never represent a percentage of straight/non-straight.  Sure, in the real world the chances are small, but that doesn't mean it'd be impossible or unrealistic.

They will not. Doesn't mean they shouldn't.

RinhiRenee wrote...
You're operating under this strange notion that fantasy can't somehow have its own societal norms outside of real life history. In Thedas, women are allowed to hold seats of power, and people aren't shunned for loving someone of the same sex.

Yet again, I never said that. I said the norms should be plausible. Women having a better standing does have a reason that is somewhat plausible, namely the prophet of the major religion being female.

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The world is inspired by the Medieval Europe, not based on it, so kinda strange when you keep referring to their view on marriage like fire-breathing dragon or darkspawns are part of that history. The sexuality of the characters could be more like the ancient Greek culture in which sexuality is more fluid. I don't like how people pick and
choose which part is be realistic and grounded in reality to them.

Sexuality in Ancient Greece was different, not fluid. To penetrate was seen as masculine and strong, to be penetrated was seen as feminine and weak. That is why, for the most part, homosexual relations between men were only socially accepted in the form of an older, dominant male penetrating a teenage boy. This view is essentially the same view that causes homophobia. Homophobia is all about not being seen as weak.
The society in DA is nothing like the one in ancient Greece. Thus, it can not have Ancient Greek's view on sexuality. Having a feudal, medieval society with an ancient Greek view on sexuality is unrealistic, no picking necessary.

h0neanias wrote...
Second, even if we do take our history into account, your conclusion about prosperity isn't a valid one.

I wasn't talking about homosexuality specifically, it was more of a general statement. Even in works of fiction where societal norms are pretty close to medieval society (or what we imagine when we think of medieval society), you often find the main characters and the narrative advocating egalitarian views as what should be.

I certainly agree that forms of mild egalitarianism do not necessarily require prosperity and technology. One should however not exaggerate the extent to which an egalitarian mindset can develop without these things. Women's rights are pretty closely linked to stronger law enforcement and receding importance of military service. 

h0neanias wrote...
First, I vehemently disagree that the point of fantasy is to rehash each and every horrible mistake of our own past.

Certainly not. But whatever society it decides to portray should be believable and characters and narrative should be based on the moral code of said society, not on the author's view of what is morally right.

h0neanias wrote...
Fantasy should be more than just "history with magic". It should draw you in, make you want to be there, even if survival might not be easy. But that's why there are heroes -- they carry us through; they show us that a way through is possible.

I disagree wholeheartedly. I neither find wanting to be there nor the existence of anyone I'd call a hero necessary or desirable for fantasy.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:24 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

They will not. Doesn't mean they shouldn't.

.... Yes, yes it does.  Given what Mr. Gaider said, I'm almost 100% certain now that they are favoring their approach over something that is more "realistic."

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:27 .

[Battlebloodmage]

The society in Thedas is nothing like the Medieval as well, so I don't get your point. It's not a real country, it's a fictional world that resembled Medieval, so you can't say that it's follow the customs there. David Gaider is the one who knows what the society in Thedas is really like. What you stated is just speculation of how the society there works, not how it actually works. What believable in your eyes may not be the same as someone else. Of course if you're just gonna ignore my examples and go with whatever you think then suit yourself. Keep perceiving the world of Thedas however you want. It doesn't make what you think as canon, but by all means, keep doing it. It's a fictional world in the first place. The ones who have anything to say about how that society operate is Bioware, not you. How you think Thedas should be is fan-cannon. It may be different in actuality. It's a world inspired by Medieval but it doesn't set in Medieval. The rules are different. That's all there is to it.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:32 .

[AlexWk31]

HiddenInWar wrote...

lxwkl21 wrote...

I actually liked the DA2's romances. I never romanced Anders but I liked that the writers gave him a backstory that involved "relations" with another man. I really hope they do something like that in DA3. The only problem I had with Zev was him talking about how much he loved this girl and all the women he's slept with. Fenris at least had Danarius!

 

Some of the dialouge is priceless 

:wub: This is why I romance Fenris everytime!  

[Lennard Testarossa]

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The society in Thedas is nothing like the Medieval as well, so I don't get your point. It's not a real country, it's a fictional world that resembled Medieval, so you can't say that it's follow the customs there.

Already answered that.

Battlebloodmage wrote...
Of course if you're just gonna ignore my examples and go with whatever you think then suit yourself.

I did not ignore your examples. I never stated that there is no such thing as a homosexual couple in Thedas.

Battlebloodmage wrote...]
What you stated is just speculation of how the society there works, not how it actually works.

We've seen quite a bit of Thedas. To abstract from that is not invalid.

What believable in your eyes may not be the same as someone else.

Following that logic, nothing could ever be called unrealistic or implausible.

The ones who have anything to say about how society operated is Bioware, not you.

I'm examining what Bioware has said so far. They can of course insert anything they want in their world. Whether what they insert is sensible, remains to be seen.

RinjiRenee wrote...
.... Yes, yes it does.  Given what Mr. Gaider said, I'm almost 100% certain now that they are favoring their approach over something that is more "realistic."

They will do what they favor, obviously. Yet again: doesn't mean it's what they should do, as that is determined by what is to be achieved.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:48 .