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Bhelen The Satanist Choice


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#101
KnightofPhoenix

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Vergil_dgk wrote...
As I undestand it, Jesus will return alongside the Madhi - whom I see more as an equivalent to the messiah in islam (that's certainly the guy they talk about all the time). It's been a big debate between christian and muslim scholars whether Jesus has a "special"  status in islam compared to other prophets and I understand that most muslim scholars reject this because they want to make clear that Mohammad is the "seal" of the prophets - not that I've been a close observer of that debate. But if Jesus is "messiah" in islam, it's certainly got very little to do with the christian view of him as messiah.


This "Mahdi" character is not mentioned in the Qu'ran, only in hadith. Some think it's a fabricated myth. Indeed, people liek the Abbasids and later on the Fatimids were fond of using it to jsutify their legitimacy. As far as the Qu'ran is concerned, Jesus is the chosen one. And he has nothing divine about him.
Islam as a whole has very little in common with Christianity. It is very smilar to Judaism though.

#102
Vergil_dgk

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I don't remember anything about the Mahdi from the Quran itself, but he is very important to quite a lot of muslims (especially the Shia, of course, Ahmadinejad actually seems to believe that we live in the days of the Madhi). I don't think Jesus is the chosen one in the Quran. While he is mentioned in it, he doesn't feature all that much. It's quite clear from the Quran that Mohammad is the Man. Thinking back I recall that Jesus is supposed to come back and "revive" islam after it's core has been forgotten (though I'm not sure if this is in the Quran, I think not, actually). I think Islam has quite a lot in common with christianity in the same way that judaism and christianity are connected. Some people say that islam and judaism are law religions and christianity isn't... I'd agree to a certain extent, but they certainly all draw on the same myths, stories and moral perspectives.

#103
Realmzmaster

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This thread is no longer about Dragon Age and has gone way off-topic. Time to end it.

#104
Vergil_dgk

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yeah ok, sorry.

#105
KnightofPhoenix

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EDIT: nevermind, sorry.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2009 - 08:06 .


#106
Vergil_dgk

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peace and love to all ;-)

#107
Tirigon

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Realmzmaster wrote...

This thread is no longer about Dragon Age and has gone way off-topic. Time to end it.


Why? Do we really need to prove gamers have no interests except their games? Though it should be moved to offtopic-area.

#108
Herr Uhl

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Tirigon wrote...
Why? Do we really need to prove gamers have no interests except their games? Though it should be moved to offtopic-area.


Well, there is one http://social.biowar...tegory/13/index Could pick it up there where you left off.

#109
Realmzmaster

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Tirigon wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

This thread is no longer about Dragon Age and has gone way off-topic. Time to end it.


Why? Do we really need to prove gamers have no interests except their games? Though it should be moved to offtopic-area.


There are places in the forum to talk about off topic subjects. Once a thread deviates that far from the intended purpose of that part of the forum it needs to be moved or the parties involved take it to the prescibed forum.

#110
Hahren

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Bhelen is evil by who's definition?



Maybe Bhelen is evil by a human's definition, but he's obviously not evil by dwarven definition.



One thing that this game does brilliantly is that it makes cultural distinctions between the races. This is also evident with the Dalish, and Qunari (for those that bother to listen to Sten). This isn't like DnD where all races have the same views on right, and wrong. The dwarf culture of this game is cut throat with a mask of civility. There isn't a noble dwarf in the game that you meet other than Bhelen that doesn't completely right off the casteless as being worthless. No matter how noble either King Aeducan/Harrowmont seem they are still elitist xenophobes. Does that make them evil? No, but it makes them jerks in their own way.

#111
Dark83

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Perhaps I am biased and I identify with my Semitic cousins more.

Speaking as a Chinese Canadian and a visible minority, I experience negligable racism here. If China activates sleeper cells to assassinate the Canadian Olympic Hockey team (not that we've been contenders for a while) and suddenly everybody becomes very paranoid and racist towards me, I'd be pissed at China - not the over-reacting Canadians. Which was all I've been trying to say - the blame is very much on the provoker.

Back to the original topic, I'm kind of confused regarding "Satanist" as used here. I'm guessing it's not referring to "religion of worshipping Satan" from context, but I was under the impression that would be the definition in the dictonary.

'cause I'm pretty sure the Stone ain't Satan. :P

Modifié par Dark83, 30 décembre 2009 - 02:36 .


#112
arntson

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Rainen89 wrote...

< Still thinks dwarven nobles should be allowed to proclaim themselves as king/queen after dealing with Branka

yeah i was the only good choice i would have changed things with out the murder and ****  i mean here i am the most honorable human/dwarf/elf in shining armour and i have to choose between **** face and douche bag?

#113
Tirigon

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Dark83 wrote...

Back to the original topic, I'm kind of confused regarding "Satanist" as used here. I'm guessing it's not referring to "religion of worshipping Satan" from context, but I was under the impression that would be the definition in the dictonary.

'cause I'm pretty sure the Stone ain't Satan. :P


Satanism includes much more than worshipping Satan. It´s a religion that glorifies freedom, indulgence, power etc... The OP had the theory that Bhelen would be the one a Satanist would choose as king, for he is pretty much like a Satanist - power-hungry, decadent, lewd, doing everything to reach his goals, and in the end would be good for the dwarfen society, so he does not do evil things for the sake of evil, but with reason. LaVey had the theory that most positive changes in humanity are forced by people considered as "evil". Exactly that happens in the dwarfen society with Bhelen as king.

#114
fairandbalancedfan

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Bhelen supports the casteless. It seems really idiotic to me, why you wouldn't utilize the manpower provided by them.

#115
skotie

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Rainen89 wrote...

Why the hell does everyone think Bhelen is the "evil" one. Bhelen is probably the only fair ruler there is, the only dick move he ever does that the PC would notice is if you play a dwarven noble and even then you got beat, in that culture it's commonplace your own father did the same freakin' thing. Harrowmont + anvil at the end = really short supervillain.


Maybe it has to do with the fact the guy just lets his guard strait up kill someone who insulted him in the streets. Last time I heard of something like this happening in real life it was with gang, complete idiots who kill each other over harmless words.

You may not look at him as evil, and I guess there really is no evil, however the man has no morals at all, the guy murdered (or had murdered) one of his brothers and blamed the other for the deed, I would hardly be surprized if he wasn't the cause of his father, the kings death as well. Seeing this a-holes lust for power and complete disregard for even his own family how can anyone expect him to make fair or just decisions concerning the well being of their nation?

Modifié par skotie, 30 décembre 2009 - 03:20 .


#116
REH1967

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After my PC visited the Dwarven City and saw the fossilized culture that had settled into a vile caste system which ignored basic principles as free will and self determination, I realized that the Dwarves were just as bad, if not worse than the Chantry/Templars and the surface world's subjugation of the Elves.



So, I decided I was going to upset some apple carts over and spread a little revolution in the process. Supporting Bhelen is the only way to go.



The surface world will take a little more work.

#117
Saturn21

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Rainen89 wrote...

Harrowmont puts on a lovely front, has the face and persona of a nice ole grampa, but he is truly evil. Bhelen honestly is a good leader who does make tough decisions, but he's made for politics. Also as far as the reform thing goes making Orzammar have solitary leadership rather than democratic. I personally feel that it wouldn't have happened had the nobles opposing him tried to kill him again and again, he removed people from power that tried to kill him, dictatorship by itself does not make a government bad. Just to what extent they become corrupt and oppress others within their jurisdiction.

To Oracle, is it self serving though? I can't see why a self serving ruler would give rights to the casteless, or why he'd even bother trying to give them a second chance when it benefited him not at all and really just gave him enemies, nor did he care what people thought of him when he worked to push Orzammar forwards with trade and surface dwarves which also earned him enemies, giving him personally no direct benefit, just his nation. Granted yes he does do things for himself but so does everyone else. Not evil, nor do I beleive it makes him completely self serving.

Lastly as stated yes, this is dwarven society not our own and evil is a very subjective term, by dwarven standards he is not evil, if it is the PC dwarf noble is as is your father when he did the same thing Bhelen did. Document forging I cannot say I think he did, but have no concrete proof to dispute either claim.


Since we are human it is hard to have empathy with a dvarven noble. Bhelen who tried to have both his brothers killed which he will do regardless even if you are a caring Dwarven Noble. He serves no one else when he does this. Many Kings will give rights to the oppressed people in their Kingdom for support which doesn't mean he has their best interests at heart. The amount of allies he would gain would exceed his enemies even nobles as he kills those who oppose him. He was considered so power hungry that his own father tried to deny him the Kingdom . Harrowmonts tactics to become King is to gain support through helpful deeds and winning provings to gain Honor while Bhelens tactics are trying to make Harrowmont seem to be something that he is not.

#118
REH1967

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They are fewkin bastards, in the end, you realize it doesn't make a fewkin difference what fewkin bastard you support, in fact, it's best to support the most disliked bastard...for best results...such as they are.

#119
borelocin

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Harrowmont is a bigot (against his own "Casteless" and "Surfacers") and an isolationist who wants to cut Dwarven culture off from the rest of Ferelden society.



Belen is ruthless but rational - all his choices are based on strengthening the state.



I would characterise him as Machiavellian rather than Satanic.

#120
thegreateski

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Good and evil have no place in politics.

#121
coldlogic82

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To answer the OP's original question, no, Bhelen is not the "Satanist" choice, because the idea presented by the satanist author isn't unique to satanism. The idea that evil serves as a catalyst by which greater good or progress is accomplished is a snazzed up version of the question do the ends justify the means. And that's been argued since the beginning of mankind. And that's assuming that Behlen even IS evil, which is also questionable. Bhelen and Harrowmont are not "good" and "evil" people. They are, instead, complex and multi-dimensional people. I stole a candybar once when I was young. I also used to volunteer as a tutor for intellectually challenged students. You can't site me as evil because of the candybar or good because of the kids. Maybe as people we do more good than evil, or more evil than good, but you can't just take one action and define a person by it.



Incidentally, the polarization of plot choices into the "good path vs the evil path" misses a huge point that the game makers were trying to make. In any given choice, there is reason to think either path is the better choice. For instance, take andraste's ashes. Everyone says it seems obvious that it's "bad" to destroy a healing religious relic. But there are reasons one might consider it not only not bad, but morally superior. For instance, let's assume the character you play does not believe in the chant, and believes that religion is ultimately bad for humanity. Beyond this, he is aware (because he luckily took Oghren) that the ashes certainly have restorative power because of the high levels of natural lyrium in the room with the urn. To this character, leaving the ashes alone will only allow the the further justification of what he sees as an unjust religion. At the same time, not being religious, by destroying the ashes he destroys nothing of value because he never believed it was a "sacred" relic anyway, and the further justification of religion by the ashes would end up killing more people than the ashes could possibly save.



For that matter, the character could be non religious and think destroying the ashes is bad for the simple matter that they can cure people, and having neutral feelings towards the justness of the religion they represent would happily let people believe what is false for the practical purpose of saving more lives.



So, the idea that Bhelen is pure evil is questionable, and even if one could demonstrate the total sum of his actions justified that label, the question of whether this evil serving as a catalyst for good is not a question of Satanism, or any religion, but instead a question of moral philosophy. And as to the answer to the question of the ends justifying the means, at this point in human history, the correct answer is not really a known one.

#122
Medhia Nox

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I have to say, this was the one decision I made in my first play through that I felt I made the "wrong" choice.



I played through all the Origins before finishing with a Mage. I knew what he had done during the Dwarf Noble Origin so I had him pegged as 'the evil choice'. I chose Harrowmont to advance to the throne.. without going through the RP of decided as a mage.



Then, when the game was over and I read about Harrowmont I was like.. "dang, that was a bad choice". I think Harrowmont is definately the evil choice (if there is a clear cut one). Bhelen is a leader.. all leaders make "tough choices" that are quite often "evil" in nature. It is the burden of leading.. do you sacrifice a lot to do the "right thing"? Do you advance your people with "a little evil"?



I believe Bhelen to be the clear "best choice" for the dwarven people. I applaud Bioware for the complexity of this decision. My personal bias' got in the way of making the best choice.

#123
dtking3

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I believe in a thing called love



JUST LISTEN TO THE RHYTHM OF THE HEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAART



;)

#124
th3warr1or

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I don't give two hoots about what Anton LeVey says or thinks.

#125
dtking3

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I'd be far more interested in a Machiavellian analysis :)