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[XCelfa]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...

That doesn't mean he should complain about it to Hawke for SEVEN years without making some effort to make a step forward in his life. Especially if Hawke happens to be a mage, in which case she becomes his proxy to hate on Danarius, mages, magic and more Danarius.

Nah, Mage!Hawke becomes Fenris' mage friend that proves his prejudice isn't really bad!

You almost owed me a new keyboard, there.

[J.C. Blade]

renjility wrote...
Fenris can't let go because Danarius is still alive all that time. He says it in the conversation when Hawke visits him for
the first time: "I tried to leave my past behind, but it won't stay there". How can you move on when the person that is responsible for the pain and misery in your life is still hunting you? After A Bitter Pill he tells Hawke he tries to let go of his anger, but that the hate is too strong after everything that's been done to him.
Only when Danarius is finally dead, he can really look forward instead of over his shoulder.

And until we reach that point Hawke had lost both of her siblings (one way or the other), her mother, as it turned out in my playthrough, was dodging Templars and the city, for some reason, had laid it on her to deal with every single problem, including that of the Quanri. You have to play Hawke as paragon of virtue and patience, devoided of all human emotions but the purest one, to be truly and utterly happy for him finding a resolution after her world got chipped away in large chunks, year after year.

renjility wrote...
That he can learn to trust and even love a mage Hawke proves he does not blindly hate all mages. They just need to prove themselves to him, show him they are different than the magisters he knows. He is mean to Merrill because she is a bloodmage. She is foolishly using the magic that is used to commit terrible crimes, thing he has witnessed. She is an example of what is in his eyes a weak mage, using power that should not be used, dealing with demons to get what she wants. Is he right to call her a monster? Probably not, but all other blood mages he has seen are monsters, so I can at least imagine where he's coming from.

He himself didn't waste any time to make a deal with a demon. The moment he was offered the power to crush Danarius he took it. Later, he blamed Hawke for it. Again.

He may say that he loves mage Hawke but he'll never accept that part of her that can do magic. In all of my playthroughs, both rival and friend, I always got this feeling that he was hoping that her magic would just go away one day, despite knowing better. And just because he doesn't insult Hawke directly doesn't mean she can't be insulted with all the "mages are weak, evil, make deal with demons at a drop of a hat..." To me that was more insulting than anything he could have told to her face, as he is essentially talking behind her back about how weak and rotten her kind is.

renjility wrote...
I guess this would count as justifying everything Fenris does as a fan, but my point is that I can see how his behavior can be justified. I find it understandable, and if you actually listen to him when he speaks, especially when taking him to the Gallows for the first time, you can see he is not irrational in his mistrust. He is not blind in his hatred. He can argue about his point of view and provide arguments to support it. 

He has no idea how it is living in a Circle. He sees a building where mages are rounded up and thinks, a place for mages to keep safe from the world and to keep the world safe from them (an excellent thing in theory but it's so far from the truth). He doesn't ask how they feel about it, no more than someone would ask a slave how they feel about their lot in life.

Did Fenris suffer in life? Yes he did.
In fact, I'd go and say that the writers made him suffer too much - he was a slave, who fought to free his family, got lyrium burned into his skin, lost his memory, was mentally, physically and sexually abused and pretty much trained like an attack dog, and had later learned that his sister betrayed him because she wanted to become an apprentice to magister herself. Anyone trying to compare to him would come out looking petty with their petty little problems.

[J.C. Blade]

legbamel wrote...
Denarius was still hunting Fenris for most of the game. How would you feel knowing that your freedom could be so fleeting that an ambush in a dark alley any night might take you back to the man who stole your memory?

You mean the same way the Hawke family had been on the run for most of their lives in fear of Templars? How they still have to hide once in Kirkwall (gameplay and story divorce nonwithstanding).

[septembervirgin]

The only reason I despise Fenris is because he is non-existent. If he were existent, I'd hope he would appear on a talk show that I'd never watch, just so he can get closure after losing several lawsuits against the Tevinter Empire. Poor smuck.

[ManOfSteel]

Yeah, Fenris is my least favourite character in DA2. I simply miss out his recruitment quest now. I also dislike Anders, but not as much as Fenris.

[BouncyFrag]

He was a bit of a whip, but if you take him along when you visit the arishok, he adds some good stuff to the exchange.

[KiwiQuiche]

Personally I liked verbally attacking him for his bullsh!t.

[Dutchess]

J.C. Blade wrote...

And until we reach that point Hawke had lost both of her siblings (one way or the other), her mother, as it turned out in my playthrough, was dodging Templars and the city, for some reason, had laid it on her to deal with every single problem, including that of the Quanri. You have to play Hawke as paragon of virtue and patience, devoided of all human emotions but the purest one, to be truly and utterly happy for him finding a resolution after her world got chipped away in large chunks, year after year.

An aggressive Hawke does push Fenris about his issues and shows impatience with him. But I don't really see your point with this. Yes, Hawke has a difficult life too. So? If anything, I imagine that could create a bond between, with both understanding what it's like to lose so much and feel unwelcome in the world. It's not Fenris' fault what happens to Hawke, and he does care about other issues than those of himself. He visits Hawke after Leandra dies, even though he is uncomfortable and doesn't know what to say. He shows he cares. That he doesn't express more sympathy during the rest of the game is more a lack in writing I think, because as far as I know none of the companions do. 

He himself didn't waste any time to make a deal with a demon. The moment he was offered the power to crush Danarius he took it. Later, he blamed Hawke for it. Again.

All companions betray you in the Fade when addressed by a demon. Except for Anders, who is already possessed. Demons play tricks with your mind and mess with your head to convince you they can give you what you want. Fenris is no mage and has no experience with the Fade and its inhabitants. He is not trained in withstanding demons in this way. I think the only companion you can hold accountable for the betrayal is Merrill. She is a mage herself, is trained in magic, knows the risks, and is still so bloody stupid to trust the demon ("I know what I'm doing!"). 
Fenris does apologize immediately afterwards for his weakness. But you know what? He has a point when he tells mage Hawke that he/she is partially responsible. As a mage, Hawke should know what to expect in the Fade. Hawke should know about demons and their tricks. Expecting you can simply drag a few non-mages with you on a merry trip is... optimistic. It becomes different when Hawke is a rogue or warrior, because then he/she also doesn't really know what to expect. Still, it is obvious that going into the Fade is dangerous and risky. As leader of the group, Hawke holds some responsibility.

By the way, when friended, Fenris doesn't shift part of the blame on Hawke. Then he says he failed Hawke and that it won't happen again. 
I think that rivalry is different because it hinges more strongly on respect. Fenris doesn't agree with Hawke in that case, but he respects his/her strength and capabilities. When he has given in to a demon, he has given Hawke a reason to lose respect. He also did what he so viciously debates against, the point that causes rivalry between him and Hawke. These two factors irk him, wound his pride. So he attempts to hold Hawke partially responsible (he never puts all the blame on Hawke, just says that he/she is ALSO to blame). 
I'm not saying he is completely right and justified in his reaction. Fenris is not perfect, and this is one of the occasions that it shows. But I don't feel this is enough to justify such a strong dislike for his character, because there is still an explanation for his behavior, even though it is not 100% rational.

He may say that he loves mage Hawke but he'll never accept that part of her that can do magic. In all of my playthroughs, both rival and friend, I always got this feeling that he was hoping that her magic would just go away one day, despite knowing better. And just because he doesn't insult Hawke directly doesn't mean she can't be insulted with all the "mages are weak, evil, make deal with demons at a drop of a hat..." To me that was more insulting than anything he could have told to her face, as he is essentially talking behind her back about how weak and rotten her kind is.

I never got that feeling, so I guess this is a bit of personal interpretation. To me, it seems that Fenris succeeds in looking past Hawke's magic, to see the person behind it. And he loves that person. That Hawke is a mage become less important, because Hawke has proven he/she cares about Fenris and that he can trust him/her.

I don't remember him saying all mages are weak and evil. In the Gallows, he states that - when backed into a corner - people turn to desperate means. He believes that, when pressured enough, people give in to temptation. To survive, to help others survive, to become king of the world. Different reasons, but they can give in at some point. That sounds pretty plausible to me. How many Hawkes would accept a demon's offer to let his siblings and mother survive? How many Hawkes would turn to blood magic if that was what it took to keep them save? I think my Hawkes would.
The "may she rot, and all the other mages with her" is said at a point where he is greatly upset. People say things that can hurt others when they're upset. In a short time Fenris is confronted with his past again, it has caught up with him once more, and he discovers his hatred is stronger than his own intentions. That is confronting and painful. And he apologizes for it the same evening. If your Hawke can't forgive him, she can toss him out.

He has no idea how it is living in a Circle. He sees a building where mages are rounded up and thinks, a place for mages to keep safe from the world and to keep the world safe from them (an excellent thing in theory but it's so far from the truth). He doesn't ask how they feel about it, no more than someone would ask a slave how they feel about their lot in life.

He knows that it can't be worse than what he's been through. I guess that makes it acceptable for him. Like you say at the end of your post, Fenris has suffered so much that everything else pales in comparison. I can see why he doesn't feel much pity for the mages that are locked up in the Circle to keep the rest of the country save. To Fenris it is those relatively few people being locked up, or the suffering and oppression of a great many more. And that is what is happening in Tevinter, so it's hard to say he isn't right about that. When the only alternative to that is the Circle, the choice is not very difficult in Fenris' eyes. He probably knows it's not fun to be locked up, that the mages don't like it, but to him it's for the greater good. 

[iSignIn]

Melca36 wrote...

Its funny how his fans excuse everything he does. He is just as emo as Anders.  They are cut from the same card and just thrown on opposite sides.

Yeah, but Fenris can't read, so he's sort of excused. Reading tends to make people more open-minded.

[KiwiQuiche]

iSignIn wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Its funny how his fans excuse everything he does. He is just as emo as Anders.  They are cut from the same card and just thrown on opposite sides.

Yeah, but Fenris can't read, so he's sort of excused. Reading tends to make people more open-minded.

Anders was also possessed by an increasingly hostile and enraged spirit which pretty much drove him insane, so he's sort of excused. Fenris doesn't that excuse, those his rage-fit over the book is funny if rival'd.

[Sable Rhapsody]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Fenris doesn't that excuse, those his rage-fit over the book is funny if rival'd.

I died laughing.  You have an option with rivaled Carver to tell him to stop being a suspicious ass and just appreciate the goddamned gift.  I would've given anything to tell Fenris just that. 

[J.C. Blade]

renjility wrote...
An aggressive Hawke does push Fenris about his issues and shows impatience with him. But I don't really see your point with this. Yes, Hawke has a difficult life too. So? If anything, I imagine that could create a bond between, with both understanding what it's like to lose so much and feel unwelcome in the world. It's not Fenris' fault what happens to Hawke, and he does care about other issues than those of himself. He visits Hawke after Leandra dies, even though he is uncomfortable and doesn't know what to say. He shows he cares. That he doesn't express more sympathy during the rest of the game is more a lack in writing I think, because as far as I know none of the companions do.

My point is that Hawke's world is in the process of crumbling little by little each year. Fenris, who had managed to escape his life of slavery has the opportunity to build a life, like Aveline did as an example. He is strong, extremely so if we take those tattoos into account, he is not stupid and he had at last found powerful allies. What he does is hide in his mansion to the point that Aveline has to change guard patrol schedule.

I felt more symphaty coming from Aveline because she had lost someone and knows the feeling well.

renjility wrote...
Fenris does apologize immediately afterwards for his weakness. But you know what? He has a point when he tells mage Hawke that he/she is partially responsible. As a mage, Hawke should know what to expect in the Fade. Hawke should know about demons and their tricks. Expecting you can simply drag a few non-mages with you on a merry trip is... optimistic. It becomes different when Hawke is a rogue or warrior, because then he/she also doesn't really know what to expect. Still, it is obvious that going into the Fade is dangerous and risky. As leader of the group, Hawke holds some responsibility.

I don't believe that. Fenris is a grown man and responsible for his own choices now that he is free, which is what he desired the whole time. He travels with an abomination and a blood mage, he had lived in Tevinter. He saw firsthand what demons can do to mages and he still went along with it. Hawke warned him, Hawke warned everyone, and much like Sebastian they could have just said no, I do not want to go to a demon infested realm.

Also, how would a mage Hawke know what to expect in Fade? She never went through Harrowing. If anything both Anders and Merrill should be the one dispatching advices.

renjility wrote...
I don't remember him saying all mages are weak and evil. In the Gallows, he states that - when backed into a corner - people turn to desperate means. He believes that, when pressured enough, people give in to temptation. To survive, to help others survive, to become king of the world. Different reasons, but they can give in at some point. That sounds pretty plausible to me. How many Hawkes would accept a demon's offer to let his siblings and mother survive? How many Hawkes would turn to blood magic if that was what it took to keep them save? I think my Hawkes would.
The "may she rot, and all the other mages with her" is said at a point where he is greatly upset. People say things that can hurt others when they're upset. In a short time Fenris is confronted with his past again, it has caught up with him once more, and he discovers his hatred is stronger than his own intentions. That is confronting and painful. And he apologizes for it the same evening. If your Hawke can't forgive him, she can toss him out.

Some Hawkes would, others wouldn't - Fenris always takes the offer presented to him.

The problem is that he keeps throwing those insults around, justified and in hurt or not. How many times can he apologise before those became meaningless?

renjility wrote...
He knows that it can't be worse than what he's been through. I guess that makes it acceptable for him. Like you say at the end of your post, Fenris has suffered so much that everything else pales in comparison. I can see why he doesn't feel much pity for the mages that are locked up in the Circle to keep the rest of the country save. To Fenris it is those relatively few people being locked up, or the suffering and oppression of a great many more. And that is what is happening in Tevinter, so it's hard to say he isn't right about that. When the only alternative to that is the Circle, the choice is not very difficult in Fenris' eyes. He probably knows it's not fun to be locked up, that the mages don't like it, but to him it's for the greater good. 

Instead of going around in circles of justifications on either side I'll just say that through the game Fenris did nothing to earn either my respect or that of my Hawke. He refused to gorw despite having both the time to heal the wounds and friends surrounding him. The only reason my Hawkes didn't sell him back to Danarius was because the writers went out of their way to make Danarius extra sleazy.

Modifié par J.C. Blade, 09 octobre 2012 - 10:58 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Fenris doesn't that excuse, those his rage-fit over the book is funny if rival'd.

I died laughing.  You have an option with rivaled Carver to tell him to stop being a suspicious ass and just appreciate the goddamned gift.  I would've given anything to tell Fenris just that. 

Lmao rival Carver is the best; I was fed up with his b!tching and having Hawke and him verbally spat like siblings make it seem more life-like lol

[Sable Rhapsody]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Lmao rival Carver is the best; I was fed up with his b!tching and having Hawke and him verbally spat like siblings make it seem more life-like lol

And he gets hit with the "whiney" label too.  Which usually translates to "character who doesn't bow to my every decision and revolve around me."

I like characters who kick back every once in a while.  It makes things more interesting and realistic.  Mass Effect was in sore need of someone to put Shep in his/her place.

[KiwiQuiche]

J.C. Blade wrote...
 The only reason my Hawkes didn't sell him back to Danarius was because the writers went out of their way to make Danarius extra sleazy.

Also, you get crap all sovereigns in return.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Fenris had some real potential - I loved the voice actor's performance (Gideon Emery), and think he had the foundations of a cool character.

Sadly, like most things in DA:2, he didn't feel fully fleshed out enough and the emo, 2 handed warrior with an all-in-one outfit and big sword was just too Cloud Strife for me, and I couldn't buy into it.

I'd like to see hi min DA:3, but he's begging to be a non-standard character like Shale - someone who uses fists instead of weapons too.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 09 octobre 2012 - 11:09 .

[Rawgrim]

I hated that damn emo manga elf. When i sold him to that slaver, i did it with a smile on my face. Too bad i couldn`t toss Merril into the deal as well.

[Welsh Inferno]

Rawgrim wrote...

I hated that damn emo manga elf. When i sold him to that slaver, i did it with a smile on my face. Too bad i couldn`t toss Merril into the deal as well.

So you approve of slavery? 

I'm not particularly fond on Fenris either but no matter how much I dislike a character I'm not gonna sell them to a slaver. 

[Rawgrim]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I hated that damn emo manga elf. When i sold him to that slaver, i did it with a smile on my face. Too bad i couldn`t toss Merril into the deal as well.

So you approve of slavery? 

I'm not particularly fond on Fenris either but no matter how much I dislike a character I'm not gonna sell them to a slaver. 

I approve of anything looking like a DA2 elf being removed from my sight. In this case: selling Fenris worked to achive a small victory in that regard.

[BBK4114]

^^ Rawgrim - that's funny stuff. I love the facetious posts in this thread. The earnest angst-y ones are pretty funny too.

[Fallstar]

I wasn't particularly fond of the guy, but I could stand him, until he betrays you at the end. I wouldn't have had a problem if he'd just done a runner a la Isabella, but he actually went over to the Templars. Hated him since. I wasn't particularly fond of Sebastien either, and he ended up doing a similar thing. Perhaps I just have a sense for traitors!

[NedPepper]

I found Fenris to be rather one note. Anders was infinitely more interesting. And I never really felt like Fenris wanted to hang out with Hawke. He hated Aveline, Merril, and Anders. I guess he tolerated Varric. (It's hard not to like Varric.) The only character he really got along with was Isabella.

Out of all of the characters in the franchise, not seeing Fenris again won't actually bother me.

[NedPepper]

Rpgfantasyplayer wrote...

I just want to know why he never cleaned up the dead bodies. Didn't those start to stink after a while?

The last patch fixed that.  My last run through, I kept thinking "Where are the bodies?" He does clean after all.  What he did with them, who knows?

[Renessa]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

See, I just solved the Fenris problem by being mean to him until we had angry sex. It all worked itself out.

This is how my mage Hawke handled it as well. :innocent:

Seriously people, always the complaints about alleged whining. If you don't like a character, don't use him/her. 

You want us to end up with only Jacob characters? No whining, no issues, no personality...