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[J.C. Blade]

Huntress wrote...

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@karlone123

I didn't like fennris because of his narrow minded view of mages, And whining about torture is normal but fennris uses it as a excuse to treat mages poorly while he never stops and considers his doing the same thing that was done him.

He doesn't sees mages with a narrow vision, he just sees them as what they are, a THREAT, just for that he won't cuddle them, he knows what mages can do because his old master was one of them and after all the evil this blood mage did,he used Fenris to put fear in the heart of his opponents, tell me what  would you think of someone  who uses you and then try to destroy you?, will you trust this type of people again? No, you'll judge them and try to keep them in check  and if given the change you'll try to destroy them.

Then Fenris should be locked up as well. He has been enhanced by magic with powers beyond that of mortal non-mages or Templars even. It's not even an ability that he had learned at this point, the lyrium is part of his body now. I do not want to know what would happen if Fenris suddenly got enraged, which he does often enough, to the point to rip someone's heart out before he realized what happened or if a demon possessed him in truth. He might not turn into a full-blown abomination but with the way he is enhanced he will cause a lot of death before he is put down.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@huntress

that's just an excuse being a mage dpes not automatically make you a threat, and btw you can't judge everybody the same way they are all different and that shows how narrow minded he is.

Got to agree with this. His opinion that ALL mages are bad is absurd; Even more so if the Hero of Fereden was a mage -which in my games, she is.
From what I've learned of him from playing DA2, He wouldn't think twice about locking her up, or putting her to death -even though she just saved the world.

[Sealy]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

most people who like fennris have a tendency to levitate towards broody gloomy emo people which is fine for them, but the game takes place over a span ten years there comes a time when you have to let go and don't let your past define who you are. Fennris seems to satisfied with being uber emo so no pity from me.

Really? Most of us? My that's some rather broad strokes, and we didn't even have to take anything from you to get it. People tend to define a whole group of people by the majority, everyone not just Fenris. He see's them all as potential magisters  even when they manage to pass by puppies without kicking them, just like Anders see's all mages as opressed slaves, even though you can't throw a dead cat in Kirkwall without hitting a mage resorting to bloodmagic for more power. 

And I will reiterate, Fenris, if not encouraged in his fear of mages by Hawke, does eventually learn, very soon after he is finally truly free. He isn't satisfied with his life, he hates that he can't seem to grasp freedom, for the most part he blames mages for his state of being, which is understandable, but he knows he is responsible as well. Unfortunatly the game ends before we can begin to see him explore his new freedom.

J.C. Blade wrote...

Then Fenris should be locked up as well. He has been enhanced by magic with powers beyond that of mortal non-mages or Templars even. It's not even an ability that he had learned at this point, the lyrium is part of his body now. I do not want to know what would happen if Fenris suddenly got enraged, which he does often enough, to the point to rip someone's heart out before he realized what happened or if a demon possessed him in truth. He might not turn into a full-blown abomination but with the way he is enhanced he will cause a lot of death before he is put down.

 

See this is where we can call Fenris out on hypocrisy, kinda, in his agrument with Anders on the subject he says "My powers are not fueled by demons" to which Anders/Hawke should have responded "Neither are mages powers, but they can be". Again, it is not a character flaw that Fenris can't learn what no one bothers to tell him. Another point to poor convo choices instead of "narrow-minded" elf.

Also, we should take into account the surprise when that Templar turned into an abomination, alluding that it is not common knowledge outside the Templars that non-mages can even be posessed. Fenris may truely believe that he has nothing to worry about from demons because they are only a threat to mages.

Even after that quest it looks like muggles can only be posessed with a mages intervention, because once he learns that Keran might be posessed he doesn't think the boy should remain with the Templars and he says, "Do not blame yourself, blame the mages who did this to you." and "He is not to blame, but tell that to the innocent victims should he have a demon in him." (something along those lines), so he either thinks he has nothing to fear unless a mage forces a demon into him, which seems likely, or he believes everyone who might be a danger if they are posessed should be locked up, other then him. And since all the companions woud be a threat if posessed, Hawke included, and he does nothing to try and remove them from "danger" I think we can safetly assume he just doesn't know.  

Modifié par Fleshdress, 10 octobre 2012 - 04:16 .

[AbsoluteApril]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@huntress

that's just an excuse being a mage dpes not automatically make you a threat, and btw you can't judge everybody the same way they are all different and that shows how narrow minded he is.

which is exactly what Fenris comes to learn though the course of the game, it's one of the biggest parts of his character growth (more so if you RP your Hawke to help him see this)

'd by Flesh

Anders: Not all mages are weak
Fenris: True. Hawke(/Bethany), for instance, is not weak.

Anders: Could you stop with the, "All mages are evil," diatribe for one minute?
Fenris: They may not all be evil, but one of them in particular is extremely annoying.

Modifié par AbsoluteApril, 10 octobre 2012 - 04:40 .

[J.C. Blade]

Fleshdress wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...

Then Fenris should be locked up as well. He has been enhanced by magic with powers beyond that of mortal non-mages or Templars even. It's not even an ability that he had learned at this point, the lyrium is part of his body now. I do not want to know what would happen if Fenris suddenly got enraged, which he does often enough, to the point to rip someone's heart out before he realized what happened or if a demon possessed him in truth. He might not turn into a full-blown abomination but with the way he is enhanced he will cause a lot of death before he is put down.

 

See this is where we can call Fenris out on hypocrisy, kinda, in his agrument with Anders on the subject he says "My powers are not fueled by demons" to which Anders/Hawke should have responded "Neither are mages powers, but they can be". Again, it is not a character flaw that Fenris can't learn what no one bothers to tell him. Another point to poor convo choices instead of "narrow-minded" elf.

Also, we should take into account the surprise when that Templar turned into an abomination, alluding that it is not common knowledge outside the Templars that non-mages can even be posessed. Fenris may truely believe that he has nothing to worry about from demons because they are only a threat to mages.

Even after that quest it looks like muggles can only be posessed with a mages intervention, because once he learns that Keran might be posessed he doesn't think the boy should remain with the Templars and he says, "Do not blame yourself, blame the mages who did this to you." and "He is not to blame, but tell that to the innocent victims should he have a demon in him." (something along those lines), so he either thinks he has nothing to fear unless a mage forces a demon into him, which seems likely, or he believes everyone who might be a danger if they are posessed should be locked up, other then him. And since all the companions woud be a threat if posessed, Hawke included, and he does nothing to try and remove them from "danger" I think we can safetly assume he just doesn't know.  

I'm rather surprised that Anders hadn't told him of the possessed cat, or possessed Templars in Circle Tower or other possessed things he might have encountered in Warden's company or had heard from the Warden.

Even more surprising is that he wouldn't know considering his place of origin. Do the Tevinter mages supposedly not play with demons on regular basis?

[unbentbuzzkill]

@fleshdress

oh is yhat so? I guess i just pulled a Fennris, I didn't mean what i just said I just figured somebody would make a agruement to prove my point. defining a whole group based on a opinion of one person when you know nothing about them is wrong, not every mage practices bllod magic they are not a majority of all mages and to suggest would be rather foolish.

[Karlone123]

J.C. Blade wrote...

Huntress wrote...

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@karlone123

I didn't like fennris because of his narrow minded view of mages, And whining about torture is normal but fennris uses it as a excuse to treat mages poorly while he never stops and considers his doing the same thing that was done him.

He doesn't sees mages with a narrow vision, he just sees them as what they are, a THREAT, just for that he won't cuddle them, he knows what mages can do because his old master was one of them and after all the evil this blood mage did,he used Fenris to put fear in the heart of his opponents, tell me what  would you think of someone  who uses you and then try to destroy you?, will you trust this type of people again? No, you'll judge them and try to keep them in check  and if given the change you'll try to destroy them.

Then Fenris should be locked up as well. He has been enhanced by magic with powers beyond that of mortal non-mages or Templars even. It's not even an ability that he had learned at this point, the lyrium is part of his body now. I do not want to know what would happen if Fenris suddenly got enraged, which he does often enough, to the point to rip someone's heart out before he realized what happened or if a demon possessed him in truth. He might not turn into a full-blown abomination but with the way he is enhanced he will cause a lot of death before he is put down.

And whose fault was that, Danarius! At least Fenris can control his anger to a point unlike Anders who would lose control of himself and vengence would take over. Plus Fenris has ripped out the hearts of Tevinter slavers so it's a service to the world.

[Sealy]

J.C. Blade wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...

Then Fenris should be locked up as well. He has been enhanced by magic with powers beyond that of mortal non-mages or Templars even. It's not even an ability that he had learned at this point, the lyrium is part of his body now. I do not want to know what would happen if Fenris suddenly got enraged, which he does often enough, to the point to rip someone's heart out before he realized what happened or if a demon possessed him in truth. He might not turn into a full-blown abomination but with the way he is enhanced he will cause a lot of death before he is put down.

 

See this is where we can call Fenris out on hypocrisy, kinda, in his agrument with Anders on the subject he says "My powers are not fueled by demons" to which Anders/Hawke should have responded "Neither are mages powers, but they can be". Again, it is not a character flaw that Fenris can't learn what no one bothers to tell him. Another point to poor convo choices instead of "narrow-minded" elf.

Also, we should take into account the surprise when that Templar turned into an abomination, alluding that it is not common knowledge outside the Templars that non-mages can even be posessed. Fenris may truely believe that he has nothing to worry about from demons because they are only a threat to mages.

Even after that quest it looks like muggles can only be posessed with a mages intervention, because once he learns that Keran might be posessed he doesn't think the boy should remain with the Templars and he says, "Do not blame yourself, blame the mages who did this to you." and "He is not to blame, but tell that to the innocent victims should he have a demon in him." (something along those lines), so he either thinks he has nothing to fear unless a mage forces a demon into him, which seems likely, or he believes everyone who might be a danger if they are posessed should be locked up, other then him. And since all the companions woud be a threat if posessed, Hawke included, and he does nothing to try and remove them from "danger" I think we can safetly assume he just doesn't know.  

I'm rather surprised that Anders hadn't told him of the possessed cat, or possessed Templars in Circle Tower or other possessed things he might have encountered in Warden's company or had heard from the Warden.

Even more surprising is that he wouldn't know considering his place of origin. Do the Tevinter mages supposedly not play with demons on regular basis?

Hmm, I always imagined that since Tevinter mages seem to think bloodmagic is a source of great power, or a trait of a strong mage that they would feel much the same about possession. I personally believe that they would not waste a slave, or chance giving them more power by helping them gain a demon passenger. It's my opinion that they would not like to share any powers with mundane humans, that they look at possession by a demon as a bit of a status symbol or power boost. But, thatsjust my head lore, you would have to check it  with Gaider.  

Also, the possessed Templars in the circle tower seemed more mind controlled then actually harbouring a demon,  and I don't even know about the cat since you have to say yes to a demon to let it in.

So unless Fenris also had access to David Gaiders out of game books, or the forum, the knowledge of possession to non-mage entities without the help of mages would not be common knowledge. 

Modifié par Fleshdress, 10 octobre 2012 - 06:30 .

[unbentbuzzkill]

no it's Fennris fault he acts the way he does true he was mistreated by a mage but for the hundredth time that was one mage not all of them

[J.C. Blade]

Karlone123 wrote...
And whose fault was that, Danarius! At least Fenris can control his anger to a point unlike Anders who would lose control of himself and vengence would take over. Plus Fenris has ripped out the hearts of Tevinter slavers so it's a service to the world.

So it's ok to rip out people's hearts of they're slavers? Not hand them over to city guard, yank information out of them about shipments and slave roots, just butcher them on the spot and call it service to the world?

And Fenris had bottled in so much anger over the years snapping is the only thing he can do if things don't go his way. And if that happens it will be only his fault, not because he has an extra voice in his head that keeps urging him on to do deeds he at one time would not even approve of.

Modifié par J.C. Blade, 10 octobre 2012 - 06:42 .

[J.C. Blade]

Fleshdress wrote...
Hmm, I always imagined that since Tevinter mages seem to think bloodmagic is a source of great power, or a trait of a strong mage that they would feel much the same about possession. I personally believe that they would not waste a slave, or chance giving them more power by helping them gain a demon passenger. It's my opinion that they would not like to share any powers with mundane humans, that they look at possession by a demon as a bit of a status symbol or power boost. But, thatsjust my head lore, you would have to check it  with Gaider.  

Also, the possessed Templars in the circle tower seemed more mind controlled then actually harbouring a demon,  and I don't even know about the cat since you have to say yes to a demon to let it in.

So unless Fenris also had access to David Gaiders out of game books, or the forum, the knowledge of possession to non-mage entities without the help of mages would not be common knowledge. 

I meant it more in the context of research. Tevinter mages would be the first to know what a demon can or cannot possess, and Danarius is boastful enough to mention it in front of his prized slave.

Why wouldn't there be a possessed cat? Aren't there some possessed animals in the Bracelian forest? There is a possessed tree no less. With the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a possessed writing desk.

As for that Templar, that demon latched on to him, so it is possession all the same. He can't turn into an abomination and is currently experiencing pleasant memories but who knows how much until demon fully takes over.

[Sealy]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@fleshdress

oh is yhat so? I guess i just pulled a Fennris, I didn't mean what i just said I just figured somebody would make a agruement to prove my point. defining a whole group based on a opinion of one person when you know nothing about them is wrong, not every mage practices bllod magic they are not a majority of all mages and to suggest would be rather foolish.

Well no, you didn't pull a Fenris, you made a highly hyperbolized comment without any justifications for it, and as you said you don't even believe it anyways. Fenris is afraid of the notion of free mages because he has been there, he has lived it in a land where bloodmagic is practiced from the Archon to the apprentices and mages are free to duel to the death on the street and enslave and abuse anyone they deem beneath them for not being born with that power. He has a reason to not trust even the best intention-ed mages.

He also believes his statements to be true. He believes that no mage is above the call for more power forever, that they can "desire freedom. safety, power, and then they are lost" and "how many times can you tempt a man before he says yes." I would even go as far to say that he doesn't hate mages as a whole, he distrusts them as a whole and he is one of the few anti-mage voices with a right to that distrust.

For the zillionth time, he does learn.

[Karlone123]

J.C. Blade wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...
And whose fault was that, Danarius! At least Fenris can control his anger to a point unlike Anders who would lose control of himself and vengence would take over. Plus Fenris has ripped out the hearts of Tevinter slavers so it's a service to the world.

So it's ok to rip out people's hearts of they're slavers? Not hand them over to city guard, yank information out of them about shipments and slave roots, just butcher them on the spot and call it service to the world?

And Fenris had bottled in so much anger over the years snapping is the only thing he can do if things don't go his way. And if that happens it will be only his fault, not because he has an extra voice in his head that keeps urging him on to do deeds he at one time would not even approve of.

Considering where the ones he ripped hearts out from where torture, slavery and blood sacrifices are accepted, it's not as bad compared to those. Plus Fenris tipped Aveline off about a slaver den in act 2.

[AbsoluteApril]

I don't believe it was a possessed cat, it was just the form the demon "Kitty" took to gain the love of the little girl.

[J.C. Blade]

AbsoluteApril wrote...

I don't believe it was a possessed cat, it was just the form the demon "Kitty" took to gain the love of the little girl.

Kitty was probbaly a demon all along but I was refering to a cat in the Circle Anders mentioned, the one that took a templar or two down after getting possesed by a rage demon.

Also, possessed tree - enough said.

[AbsoluteApril]

I don't recall that discussion was it in DA2 or Awakenings?

Oh and I wasn't trying to say it couldn't happen..

[J.C. Blade]

Awakening. It's when he talks to Sir-Pounce-A-Lot.

[unbentbuzzkill]

@fleshdress

He shouldn't have to learn it he should already know it he's not a child, but it is good he does learn, but it still no to treat bethany/merrill as he does T really don't care about anders.

[Sealy]

J.C. Blade wrote...

I meant it more in the context of research. Tevinter mages would be the first to know what a demon can or cannot possess, and Danarius is boastful enough to mention it in front of his prized slave.

Why wouldn't there be a possessed cat? Aren't there some possessed animals in the Bracelian forest? There is a possessed tree no less. With the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a possessed writing desk.

As for that Templar, that demon latched on to him, so it is possession all the same. He can't turn into an abomination and is currently experiencing pleasant memories but who knows how much until demon fully takes over.

Yah lol, I actually have no idea where to take the discussion from here since now we are both just arguing what we think might be the case.

I just feel that Fenris shows some more of his character when he disagrees that Keran should keep his job, he doesn't think that anyone who possesses the ability to cause magor damage with the help of a demon should be in a posistion where they can do said damage. So he either thinks he is stong enough to withstand any demon deals, which must be a major blow to his pride when he uh, doesn't, or he doesn't know he can be possessed by a demon in the first place. I am fine with either scenario as both fit quite nicely with his character, he can be quite arrogant in a weird self loathing way. He has a superiority/inferioity complex.

As for if it is okay to rip out a slavers heart instead of handing them over to the law? No, it isn't. But I certainly don't blame him for being petty after everything that was done to him. 

I should hope that people can see that most Fenris fans are not trying to rationalize away his character flaws, they are part of what most of us love. He is loyal, sarcastic, strong, smart and incredibly flawed, he can be weak and snotty, down right cruel, and ignorant, but I think that makes him above all else a very believable character he is no Bella Swan thats for sure. I for one quite adore him, when I am not too busy trying to strangle him.

[iorveth1271]

Fenris was by all means no whiny character. He had undergone horrible torture and humiliation under his master Danarius and had after all these years decided to no longer run but start fighting back. And his hatred of mages wasn't exactly baseless either, I mean, let's face it: except for Bethany (if she lived) and Hawke (if he/she was a mage), every. single. mage. in DA2 was somehow involved in Blood Magic. Anders not so much, but even he was possessed by a demon/spirit thing of Vengeance which fed upon his hatred of the Templars. Every single point Fenris brought up against mage freedom was basically proven absolutely right by the very leader of the rebellion itself, Anders.

And don't get me started on Merrill. She alone was responsible for the likely death of her own entire Dalish clan. Fenris never associated with other Elves because he didn't consider himself one in the first place - he never did have the contact to racism like most people in Thedas do so him not associating with Elves made perfect sense to me. I did in no way however get the idea that he thought other Elves beneath him.

In short, Fenris had every reason to be a bit moody, maybe even broody. But whiny? No. Kaidan Alenko was whiny, yes. Fenris had every reason to be full of hate and spite and every mage Hawke who friended him could more than prove to him that by far not all mages are the same, which he also mentioned in a banter in-game. His view was that the potential for misuse of power is always there, especially with mages who are under constant threat of demons and other creatures from beyond the veil. Fenris was more of a pragmatic, not a whiner.

[Sealy]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@fleshdress

He shouldn't have to learn it he should already know it he's not a child, but it is good he does learn, but it still no to treat bethany/merrill as he does T really don't care about anders.

Oh boy I am beginning to wonder about your sincerity about this topic. The way he treats Merrill, The bloodmage, is actually better then one could usually hope for, he doesn't try to kill her, refuses to help Sebastion (his friend) turn her and Anders in. If anything he is sometimes mean to her and always blunt/annoyed. 

He practically worships the ground Bethany walks on, asks her about her opinions and is quite kind to her. I assume you got into the very beginning scene with meeting him where he calls all mages vipers and then what quit the field? What experiances should he be drawing upon by the beginning of the game to "already know" that mages can be trusted. He barely gets any proof of that by act two. 

[J.C. Blade]

Fleshdress wrote...
Yah lol, I actually have no idea where to take the discussion from here since now we are both just arguing what we think might be the case.

I just feel that Fenris shows some more of his character when he disagrees that Keran should keep his job, he doesn't think that anyone who possesses the ability to cause magor damage with the help of a demon should be in a posistion where they can do said damage. So he either thinks he is stong enough to withstand any demon deals, which must be a major blow to his pride when he uh, doesn't, or he doesn't know he can be possessed by a demon in the first place. I am fine with either scenario as both fit quite nicely with his character, he can be quite arrogant in a weird self loathing way. He has a superiority/inferioity complex.

As for if it is okay to rip out a slavers heart instead of handing them over to the law? No, it isn't. But I certainly don't blame him for being petty after everything that was done to him. 

I should hope that people can see that most Fenris fans are not trying to rationalize away his character flaws, they are part of what most of us love. He is loyal, sarcastic, strong, smart and incredibly flawed, he can be weak and snotty, down right cruel, and ignorant, but I think that makes him above all else a very believable character he is no Bella Swan thats for sure. I for one quite adore him, when I am not too busy trying to strangle him.

It's great if you find him belivable and well written and enjoy him as a character. I can't begrudge you for that. All I know is that I don't think of him as such. All that you've mentioned in the last paragraph and before is something I can't see in him. He is not a character to me, he is a mouth-piece that stays constant for ten years so anti-mage side would have a voice. Anders goes progressivley more mad showing the danger of possession, Fenris sits and stews in his anger.

The way he is written, with so much suffering in his background makes me think I should never think Hawke has it hard in her life no matter what hits her. It's like, "Fenris survived through worse so chin up," or "Feel free to feel immense amounts of guilt about being a mage because of what they can do."

Modifié par J.C. Blade, 10 octobre 2012 - 07:24 .

[unbentbuzzkill]

@fleshdress
when i mention bethany i'm talking about when he first meets her in bait and switch (if in your party) when he says your harboring a viper.

[iorveth1271]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@fleshdress
when i mention bethany i'm talking about when he first meets her in bait and switch (if in your party) when he says your harboring a viper.

Fleshdress wrote...

What experiances should he be drawing upon by the beginning of
the game to "already know" that mages can be trusted. He barely gets any
proof of that by act two.

[sereada]

 I always romanced fenris once I got a more in depth insight into his personality. He is the one that talks to you the most about everything he could remember, hes cruel towards anders,merrill because they are selfish.He does defend hawke and or bethany if they are mages to anders saying they are not weak lol anders gets pissy, he even tells merrill that she had a life and a home and abandoned it to chase ghosts.Agrees with anders about the keeper dying instead of merrill,you tell merrill the keeper loved her and she still brushes it off then she realizes if you take responsibility for her even the clan says to her the keeper loved her but she went after what she wanted over the clan Anders is the spirit of vengance within for his hatred of templars that justice tries to control.Romanced him too once upon a time,lol. Honestly I love the personalities in Da2 made them more real then anything. Choosing who you want gives u insight also how u respond to the characters u can change their hearts well maybe except merrill,lol tried that too.