210 réponses à ce sujet

[Sealy]

J.C. Blade wrote...

It's great if you find him belivable and well written and enjoy him as a character. I can't begrudge you for that. All I know is that I don't think of him as such. All that you've mentioned in the last paragraph and before is something I can't see in him. He is not a character to me, he is a mouth-piece that stays constant for ten years so anti-mage side would have a voice. Anders goes progressivley more mad showing the danger of possession, Fenris sits and stews in his anger.

The way he is written, with so much suffering in his background makes me think I should never think Hawke has it hard in her life no matter what hits her. It's like, "Fenris survived through worse so chin up," or "Feel free to feel immense amounts of guilt about being a mage because of what they can do."

See and I wouldn't begrudge you that opinion... or I don't, but at the same time he does change, he is not a static character, his life was hard and in almost all his scenes you see/hear him struggle to move past his uh, past and live a normal life. It isn't a easy thing to do, he is no better then a child in attempting it too since he has about... what ten years of memory to work with.

Hawke is a suffer pony, and yet her/his companions -all of them- probably have more heart breaking stories then she could hope for, it shouldn't detract how much sympathy you feel for Hawke, but I don't see how having sympathy for Fenris can make you hate his character. 

[unbentbuzzkill]

@sereada


To me in my imo he really has no right to question anybody's motivations or decisions.

[iorveth1271]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@sereada


To me in my imo he really has no right to question anybody's motivations or decisions.

So he should sit idly by while Anders nearly kills an innocent young girl in one of his many Vengeance rages or when Merrill actively uses Blood Magic, summoning a demon in an effort to clean a tainted mirror that already cost the life of one (or two) of her clan members, saying nothing?

So much for character depth and banters then. Yay for total silence.

[unbentbuzzkill]

let me put it this waythere are times when in game Fennris says some pretty horrible stuff to merrill and this before act 2 and 3 before most of the major events in the story.

[J.C. Blade]

Fleshdress wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...

It's great if you find him belivable and well written and enjoy him as a character. I can't begrudge you for that. All I know is that I don't think of him as such. All that you've mentioned in the last paragraph and before is something I can't see in him. He is not a character to me, he is a mouth-piece that stays constant for ten years so anti-mage side would have a voice. Anders goes progressivley more mad showing the danger of possession, Fenris sits and stews in his anger.

The way he is written, with so much suffering in his background makes me think I should never think Hawke has it hard in her life no matter what hits her. It's like, "Fenris survived through worse so chin up," or "Feel free to feel immense amounts of guilt about being a mage because of what they can do."

See and I wouldn't begrudge you that opinion... or I don't, but at the same time he does change, he is not a static character, his life was hard and in almost all his scenes you see/hear him struggle to move past his uh, past and live a normal life. It isn't a easy thing to do, he is no better then a child in attempting it too since he has about... what ten years of memory to work with.

Hawke is a suffer pony, and yet her/his companions -all of them- probably have more heart breaking stories then she could hope for, it shouldn't detract how much sympathy you feel for Hawke, but I don't see how having sympathy for Fenris can make you hate his character. 

That's it. I don't see him change. I see him struggle, a lot. But unless you go through friendship with him he won't budge from his anger. Killing Danarius will satisfy him and end his need for revenge but he won't grow as person. He has friends around him and people he can trust, a safe harbor, time at his disposal and it still takes Hawke who will put up with his mood swings to help him move on. I suppose I can headcanon it into believing that Fenris ignored Hawke's harsh words in favor of Varric and Aveline but that's not what DA2's highly cinematic style tried to sell me.

It's difficult to symphathize with what Hawke is going through when you have a an ex-slave right there as a glaring example of what mages can do, or even the magnitude of hellhole that was his life. My mage Hawkes even ended up siding with the Templars in the end, even after the entire game of supporting mages because of the sheer guilt his character depicted (Anders wasn't much of a help either).

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. I'm just trying to find words to describe what is it that so much irks me about him. I suppose I just feel that he is written to evoke symphaty. He even diplayes "puppy eyes" on several occasions. Everything about him, to me, screams "I've had a hard life, but did not go insane in the process so hug me and help me." No other character in the group does this. No character in DAO did this.

[Fault Girl]

There are times when Fenris is harsh towards Merrill. I'm a Fenris fan and sometimes my Hawke wanted to say "Fenris be nicer about it". But it's his past that makes him criticise in a rather harsh manner I think. (Blood) Magic ruined his life and I can see why he would use anger to scold Merrill/Anders. To him magic is dangerous and he must express that.

I think in games you need friction between characters, not everyone can get along. I think it just need's to find the right balance. Kinda like Alistair and Morrigan in DA:O. Maybe Fenris vs Anders/Merrill was too heavy. Hope that makes sense...I apologise in advance for my writing.

[iorveth1271]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

let me put it this waythere are times when in game Fennris says some pretty horrible stuff to merrill and this before act 2 and 3 before most of the major events in the story.

And why wouldn't he? Merrill alone was responsible for everything that happened to her, including the annihilation of her own clan. It was her naive stupidity that led to the only person that ever truly cared about her dying and her losing everything she ever had. She had a family, a clan that cared for her, a purpose. And yet she blended all that out for a tainted ancient mirror, hoping to find god knows what in it, even turning to blood magic for it, disregarding any and all risks and warnings. And what happened? The only person that ever stood with her, even through her idiocy, saved her life from a Pride Demon. And she keeps the mirror (unless you rivaled her). How more stupid can a single sentient actually become?

So everything Fenris says has a point. She had everything - a clan, a good life, safety, a purpose, people who truly cared for her and would have given their lives to save hers. And she threw it away, in exchange for an old elven mirror that already claimed the lives of Mahariel and Tamlen, two careless Dalish hunters. You claim Fenris has no right to say horrible stuff to her? It's the horrible stuff that she bloody needs to her in order for her to open her goddamn eyes and finally see the consequences of her naive and stupid carelessness that cost the life of one of the greatest Dalish that ever lived - Marethari.

And it was Merrills fault and her fault alone. Fenris has every right to goddamn criticize her. As does Anders, and Varric, and Aveline, and Isabela, and Hawke, and Carver, and everyone else.

[J.C. Blade]

Marethari did that to herself. She could have easily packed her clan and headed for the other continent leaving Merrill to deal with the consequences, possession and ultimately death. She didn't, and had therefore had endangered the clan.

But this is not a topic about Merrill. There are others for that.

[unbentbuzzkill]

@ vault n7

In DA;O allister and morrigan did it to each other in DA;2 it's one character doing the majority of the dishing.

P.S. don't worry about the writing nobodies perfect i know i'm not.

[iorveth1271]

J.C. Blade wrote...

Marethari did that to herself. She could have easily packed her clan and headed for the other continent leaving Merrill to deal with the consequences, possession and ultimately death. She didn't, and had therefore had endangered the clan.

But this is not a topic about Merrill. There are others for that.

I'm not sure that Marethari stayed just for Merrill, I much rather believe there was a bigger purpose behind the prolongued stay. But I suppose that's something that might get answered in DA3.

Or it was simply about Merrill and there's a line of dialogue that proves that which I'm missing atm. Not sure either way.

[unbentbuzzkill]

@jorveth1271

but before any of that happens in game he's highly critical of her it would be different if he started being critical after the fact. but that is not the way it worked out.

[J.C. Blade]

iorveth1271 wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...

Marethari did that to herself. She could have easily packed her clan and headed for the other continent leaving Merrill to deal with the consequences, possession and ultimately death. She didn't, and had therefore had endangered the clan.

But this is not a topic about Merrill. There are others for that.

I'm not sure that Marethari stayed just for Merrill, I much rather believe there was a bigger purpose behind the prolongued stay. But I suppose that's something that might get answered in DA3.

Or it was simply about Merrill and there's a line of dialogue that proves that which I'm missing atm. Not sure either way.

There is no hidden reason. She stayed because she loved Merrill too much. Marethari's love for her outwaeighed her felling of duty as a Keeper. She didn't want to see Merrill go down the path of self-destruction. All well and good but her obligations laid elsewhere and because she didn't act her clan can perish.

So yes, Merrill is an idiot for making a deal with the demon, while Marethari is an even beigger fool for not just heading on with heavy heart in an effort to preserve what life she could.

[Dutchess]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@jorveth1271

but before any of that happens in game he's highly critical of her it would be different if he started being critical after the fact. but that is not the way it worked out.

She was being stupid during the whole game and eventually it all went to hell because of it. Fenris recognizes the path she is on and warns her about it. Seems better than starting to blame afterwards.

[FenrirBlackDragon]

I have my share of characters I don't like, but I find it more productive to ask for what you DO want in a character, rather than what you don't want.
That said, I personally liked Fenris. (Hey, my name is FenrirBlackDragon, after all.) I feel he was overgeneralizing and very antagonistic towards mages, but as he said in game it was "not without cause." He was horribly tortured and treated badly, so I don't blame him.

But, that does not mean I excuse his behavior. I never changed what I said because it would earn rivarly points, I picked the options I felt would best match what I would actually say in that situation. I didn't shy away from taking him on any mage related quests if that's who I felt like taking.And in the end, he was at 100% friendship before Act 3 even started.

I see it as, even though he and I disagreed about some very fundamental things, he and I were on the same page about a lot.

But, I felt I was limited. I wish I could see my relationship having more of an impact on his character outside of the one on one conversations I had with him (this is a complaint I have for all of the companions, actually). And I wish we talked about things besides magic and slavery.

But, overall, I'd have to say even thought I want to shake him sometimes, he's no worse than some of the other companions you travel with. In my humble opinion.

[iorveth1271]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@jorveth1271

but before any of that happens in game he's highly critical of her it would be different if he started being critical after the fact. but that is not the way it worked out.

Yes, well, you might have missed the fact that Fenris was raised as a slave in Tevinter.

And Tevinter is a land mainly governed by powerful mages, blood mages especially.

One of these Blood Mages put him through the most intense moments of agony a sentient can take before actually passing out.

Merrill is a Blood Mage too. She may not be a magister, but she's worse in that she's a blood mage out of stupidity and blindness, ignoring any and all warnings. One of the first things she does when you meet her is use blood magic to disable a barrier on Sundermount. And she makes no secret of the fact that she clearly underestimates the power of demons by stating that they're all just spirits from the beyond and how this one wants to help her. Yeah right.

Merrill is young. She lacks a thing that is vital in order to be able to use magic responsibly and carefully - wisdom. And this makes her naive. And that leads to all these tragedies. She doesn't understand the consequences of her actions and she's playing with powers she doesn't even remotely understand, even less control. If I were Fenris, I'd have said a lot more to her.

[frostajulie]

Fenris' voice is like warm honey and alcohal he gets away with a lot because of that but when Merrill is your friend or LI both Anders and Fenris deserve the murder knife.

Still I liked him.

[unbentbuzzkill]

ok last time i checked Fennris is not a dortune teller so it's no way that he would have known it would work out the way it did.

[iorveth1271]

J.C. Blade wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...

Marethari did that to herself. She could have easily packed her clan and headed for the other continent leaving Merrill to deal with the consequences, possession and ultimately death. She didn't, and had therefore had endangered the clan.

But this is not a topic about Merrill. There are others for that.

I'm not sure that Marethari stayed just for Merrill, I much rather believe there was a bigger purpose behind the prolongued stay. But I suppose that's something that might get answered in DA3.

Or it was simply about Merrill and there's a line of dialogue that proves that which I'm missing atm. Not sure either way.

There is no hidden reason. She stayed because she loved Merrill too much. Marethari's love for her outwaeighed her felling of duty as a Keeper. She didn't want to see Merrill go down the path of self-destruction. All well and good but her obligations laid elsewhere and because she didn't act her clan can perish.

So yes, Merrill is an idiot for making a deal with the demon, while Marethari is an even beigger fool for not just heading on with heavy heart in an effort to preserve what life she could.

Hmm, maybe I might just be reading too much into it then. Might be those inofficial leaks might have set me off-track there as well xD

Either way, I can't really blame Marethari there. Marethari is like a mother to her clan. She saw one of her "children", if you will, head down a dangerous path. If you remember back, Merrill was to become her First, after all, so Merrill was rather important to the clan as well as to Marethari in terms of her legacy. I have no doubt she would have done the same thing for every member of her clan but at least in that regard and possibly many more, Merrill was special to her.

And it's really not easy to leave such a valued member of the family behind. So yeah, I can't blame her.

[iorveth1271]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

ok last time i checked Fennris is not a dortune teller so it's no way that he would have known it would work out the way it did.

So it's hard for you to see that a blood mage might end up doing a lot of harm to all around him as soon as you notice he/she is using blood magic? Is it really so hard for you to believe that Fenris recognized the path Merrill was going down simply because he had seen it many times over?

If you trust a blood mage so easily, you're about as naive as Merrill. No offense.

[Tootles FTW]

I love Fenris, but I remember him having a pretty significant amount of hate (or at least disdain) on the game forums both before and after release.
The thing with Anders is that his actions hold a greater significance on the series as opposed to Fenris's ****ing, and with the sequel announced I imagine that's where the renewal of Anders hatred is coming from.

[edited to include Merrill comment:] Merrill gets hate because she is shackled with the worst companion questline in the entire game. 

In summary: Meh. Opinions.

Modifié par Tootles FTW, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:52 .

[J.C. Blade]

iorveth1271 wrote...
Hmm, maybe I might just be reading too much into it then. Might be those inofficial leaks might have set me off-track there as well xD

Either way, I can't really blame Marethari there. Marethari is like a mother to her clan. She saw one of her "children", if you will, head down a dangerous path. If you remember back, Merrill was to become her First, after all, so Merrill was rather important to the clan as well as to Marethari in terms of her legacy. I have no doubt she would have done the same thing for every member of her clan but at least in that regard and possibly many more, Merrill was special to her.

And it's really not easy to leave such a valued member of the family behind. So yeah, I can't blame her.

Not the point. She is a Keeper. She has a duty to the whole clan. The clan depends on her - the adults, the children, the hala, everyone. Sitting and waiting for the day to come when the demon will finally show his face is not the way to protect the clan. Merrill made her choice. Marethari made hers and so doomed the clan. In the end the caln paid the price with their lives because two stupid women couldn't let go.

There is also more than one mage per clan so she could have trained another.

[unbentbuzzkill]

@jorveth1271

if that's the case nobody should have trusted my male warden because he was/is a blood mage.

[iorveth1271]

J.C. Blade wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...
Hmm, maybe I might just be reading too much into it then. Might be those inofficial leaks might have set me off-track there as well xD

Either way, I can't really blame Marethari there. Marethari is like a mother to her clan. She saw one of her "children", if you will, head down a dangerous path. If you remember back, Merrill was to become her First, after all, so Merrill was rather important to the clan as well as to Marethari in terms of her legacy. I have no doubt she would have done the same thing for every member of her clan but at least in that regard and possibly many more, Merrill was special to her.

And it's really not easy to leave such a valued member of the family behind. So yeah, I can't blame her.

Not the point. She is a Keeper. She has a duty to the whole clan. The clan depends on her - the adults, the children, the hala, everyone. Sitting and waiting for the day to come when the demon will finally show his face is not the way to protect the clan. Merrill made her choice. Marethari made hers and so doomed the clan. In the end the caln paid the price with their lives because two stupid women couldn't let go.

There is also more than one mage per clan so she could have trained another.

That's all true. It would have been the smart thing to do, yes. She made a bad call, yes.

But do you always make the right decisions? Do you always make good decisions?

I'd call it human nature, but unfortunately Marethari is an elf. But to me, personally, this simply shows how alike the elves and humans and dwarves, despite all their differences, truly are beneath the surface. Marethari staying was certainly the wrong and bad decision, but it was - again, despite her being an elf - a human reaction and one I can personally relate to very well. She treated Merrill like her own flesh and blood and in the process forgot her duties as keeper. But I would be the last person to ever judge Marethari for that.

[iorveth1271]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@jorveth1271

if that's the case nobody should have trusted my male warden because he was/is a blood mage.

The Blood Mage specialization was rather poorly implemented in both installations, with too few reactions regarding that alignment. In fact, the only reaction regarding that specialization I can actually recall is Anders becoming one in Awakening, during his banter outside Amaranthine.

So that's poor writing, not an argument pro-blood mages.

And in terms of lore, do not forget the Warden's alignment. He was, after all, a Grey Warden. And among the Wardens, Blood Magic is allowed. "Whatever is necessary to stop the Blight" - different situation, different reactions.

Still, the total lack of reactions is due to poor implementation.

Modifié par iorveth1271, 10 octobre 2012 - 09:00 .