200 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

@Elton John is dead

Our society is going there, yeah. I seriously think that in the future, probably not even far future words "he/she" will be replaced with some universal gender less word. And that "he/she" will be a question asked specifically for matting purposes when you won't always be able to tell by the looks and behavior anymore. I don't think anyone will be able to stop this process nor will future generation children consider it strange anymore.

Modifié par KainD, 09 octobre 2012 - 03:13 .

[hexaligned]

KainD wrote...

@Elton John is dead

Our society is going there, yeah. I seriously think that in the future, probably not even far future words "he/she" will be replaced with some universal gender less word. And that "he/she" will be a question asked specifically for matting purposes when you won't always be able to tell by the looks and behavior anymore. I don't think anyone will be able to stop this process nor will future generation children consider it strange anymore.

I don't think the majority of people are that insecure with the reality of their gender (pleasant fantasies and ego bubbles aside),  There might be little niches that do that yes, there most likely are already, humanity on a whole still operates on a very basic "You only have the right to what you can take" level.  Western social constructs are far from universal, and if anything their influence is on the decline.  it depends on what you mean by "our society" though, I'm fairly transitory, I've lived in the US (both North and South, which might as well be different coutnries.), Germany, Japan, Bulgaria, Australia, India, South Korea, Brazil, France, Isreal, Iraq, Egypt.. and probobly some others I am forgetting. So for me that term takes on global connotations.

Modifié par relhart, 09 octobre 2012 - 03:42 .

[Dirgegun]

Zkyire wrote...

"Power fantasy"?

I see that phrase all too often in threads that pop up around here.

A good-looking woman? Well that's just a male power fantasy.

A good-looking man? Well that.. that's also a male power fantasy. Apparantly.

Sexism against men and women? Well that's.. again also a male power fantasy.

Seriously?

When posters say they want NPCs to comment on the sex of your character, why do you people automatically jump to "OMG I'M A WOMAN! HE'S TALKING ABOUT WOMEN! THAT SEXIST PIG!"

People are asking for it to happen both ways, ie. some characters (both male and female) will say a few different lines to you, depending on whether you are male or female. That being that if you come across a heterosexual flirtatious woman and your PC is a man, then she might flirt with you, or if you come across a heterosexual man and your PC is a woman, the he might flirt with you. Or a homosexual man/woman flirting with your male/female PC. Are these sexist? No.

The sex of your character already does have an impact in the setting itself (ie. Chantry Clerics can only be women). That is sexist, but funnily enough there's no outcry about that kind of sexism.

What people here are asking is simply to have the sex of your character matter a bit more. There is a vast difference between more dialogue based on the sex of your character and flat out game-spanning bigotry.

People want their species to be commented on by NPCs, people want their class to be commented on by NPCs, people want their class specialisation to be commented on by NPCs, but their sex? Nono, that's sexist.

I've seen the argument popping up that people don't want their sex to be commented on because we're not mages or Elves, but we are men/women and so it has a personal effect?

Well we're also Human. And that's a species in game. If you can handle the comments on the species then you can handle comments on the sex.

Quoting this for truth, because I feel the need to make sure people see this. I think people are going to town on what the OP asked for, and jumping on the sexist argument... when no such thing was meant. In fact reading over some of the posts and attacks that are going on here makes me cringe big time. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

KainD wrote...
@Elton John is dead

Our society is going there, yeah. I seriously think that in the future, probably not even far future words "he/she" will be replaced with some universal gender less word. And that "he/she" will be a question asked specifically for matting purposes when you won't always be able to tell by the looks and behavior anymore. I don't think anyone will be able to stop this process nor will future generation children consider it strange anymore.

Gradually, maybe.  But nowadays gender is still a factor in how people dress, think, and judge other people, and a lot of it has little to do with social inequity (though there is indisputably social inequity between men and women, and that is 100% not ok).  

Pretending some sort of gender blindness comes off weird to me in an RPG.  It's the same as when someone who should comment on such things overlooks my protagonist's race or class.  It's like, "Um, NPC, you do have eyes?  Note the pointy ears?  The female figure?  Also possibly the blood squirting out of my veins and causing you excruciating pain?"

[JCAP]

Damn, many people missed completely the point. <_<


All I meant was that the DA3 should treat this matter the same way as DA:O, and not like DA2.


And for those who brought up the sexism, did I said that the npc's should call a female pc "yo, b****, show your boobs"? Or "I. Want. Sex. NOW!!!"? I never said that!!!!

Off topic:
Or do you have a problem in being woman? Are woman inferior to man? Not in my head (by the way, I am a man).
And why the hell is sexist saying (complimenting or whatever) something about a woman, but about a man isn't?
Grow up and don't be such a victims <_<


I only want that the npc's acknowledge that pc is a male or female; mage, rogue or warrior; blood mage or no blood mage etc...

Stupid flame war <_<<_<<_<<_<<_<<_<

(sorry my english)

[DarkKnightHolmes]

You're right. Male PC should be told they're dirty animals while Female PC should be told to get back in the kitchen.

[Sable Rhapsody]

JCAP wrote...
I only want that the npc's acknowledge that pc is a male or female; mage, rogue or warrior; blood mage or no blood mage etc...

Stupid flame war <_<<_<<_<<_<<_<<_<

(sorry my english)

Nah, I think you were pretty clear.  It's just a touchy subject.  And it's BSN.  People could get offended over cute kitten pictures if they tried hard enough.

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

You're right. Male PC should be told they're dirty animals while Female PC should be told to get back in the kitchen.

Elves are lithe and excel at poverty, dwarves are too short and hairy, mages are whackjobs, templars are oppressive totalitarian monsters...that about cover the rest of it? 

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 octobre 2012 - 04:25 .

[Mummy22kids]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

You're right. Male PC should be told they're dirty animals while Female PC should be told to get back in the kitchen.

I'd reply to this but I'm too busy making sammiches.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

You're right. Male PC should be told they're dirty animals while Female PC should be told to get back in the kitchen.

Elves are lithe and excel at poverty, dwarves are too short and hairy, mages are whackjobs, templars are oppressive totalitarian monsters...that about cover the rest of it? 

No, you forgot Fereldan smells like wet dogs.

[Mummy22kids]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

You're right. Male PC should be told they're dirty animals while Female PC should be told to get back in the kitchen.

Elves are lithe and excel at poverty, dwarves are too short and hairy, mages are whackjobs, templars are oppressive totalitarian monsters...that about cover the rest of it? 

No, you forgot Fereldan smells like wet dogs.

And Orlesians are all drama queens (even the men).

[Sable Rhapsody]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
No, you forgot Fereldan smells like wet dogs.

I also forgot to mention Antiva smells of rotting leather.  And let's not even start with the Orlesians.  And the qunari are, I dunno, big and horny?

[FINE HERE]

JCAP wrote...

Damn, many people missed completely the point. <_<


All I meant was that the DA3 should treat this matter the same way as DA:O, and not like DA2.


And for those who brought up the sexism, did I said that the npc's should call a female pc "yo, b****, show your boobs"? Or "I. Want. Sex. NOW!!!"? I never said that!!!!

Off topic:
Or do you have a problem in being woman? Are woman inferior to man? Not in my head (by the way, I am a man).
And why the hell is sexist saying (complimenting or whatever) something about a woman, but about a man isn't?
Grow up and don't be such a victims <_<


I only want that the npc's acknowledge that pc is a male or female; mage, rogue or warrior; blood mage or no blood mage etc...

Stupid flame war <_<<_<<_<<_<<_<<_<

(sorry my english)

Sorry, JCAP, I was trying to help with my posts, but I think I only made it worse...

[JCAP]

FINE HERE wrote...

JCAP wrote...

Damn, many people missed completely the point. <_<


All I meant was that the DA3 should treat this matter the same way as DA:O, and not like DA2.


And for those who brought up the sexism, did I said that the npc's should call a female pc "yo, b****, show your boobs"? Or "I. Want. Sex. NOW!!!"? I never said that!!!!

Off topic:
Or do you have a problem in being woman? Are woman inferior to man? Not in my head (by the way, I am a man).
And why the hell is sexist saying (complimenting or whatever) something about a woman, but about a man isn't?
Grow up and don't be such a victims <_<


I only want that the npc's acknowledge that pc is a male or female; mage, rogue or warrior; blood mage or no blood mage etc...

Stupid flame war <_<<_<<_<<_<<_<<_<

(sorry my english)

Sorry, JCAP, I was trying to help with my posts, but I think I only made it worse...

No you didn't.

[berelinde]

One of the hazards of creating a thread. It may run off in unanticipated directions.

I get where you're coming from, OP. You want the game world to recognize that you have rolled a male/female/orangutan protagonist, but the game world treats everyone the same, or nearly so. You don't get special quests for choosing one over another, nobody congratulates you for being an exceptional <class> for a <gender>, and few if any Thedosians make derogatory remarks about you and every man/woman/etc like you.

If this were handled in a way like the Origin stories, with distinct but equally engaging quests that varied per gender and class, it would add to the replay value, but that level of customization is expensive. It isn't nearly expensive to pepper the game with random NPCs who spout "Congratulations, you are a(n) man/woman/elf/dwarf/goat!" but does that actually add anything? There is the compromise of adding characters like Meeran, Jansen, or any of the other NPCs who find fem!Hawke attractive, but DA2 covered that pretty well, in my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

DA2 handled it fine. There's no reason to make player sex a major issue, especially in a world like Thedas that's demonstrably more equal than our world at that time.

I'd disagree.

Let's look at the relationship with Merrill. As a Male Hawke, the clan should hate you a great deal because Merrill would bear a human child -- something she mentions in the romance scene.

This might be done in offhand dialogue prompts, or certain cutscenes, or whatever.

As a Female Hawke however, they wouldn't hate Merrill as much in this regard. They'd still hate her, much as they do in-game regardless of romance. But on this issue their hatred of her wouldn't be as much as it would be for a Male Hawke, because she's not going to have a human child. She won't be having a child at all, really, unless she adopts or Hawke is open for a threesome or whatnot.

I think that'd be an interesting perspective that would give gender a sense of importance.

Along with dealings with the Qunari, or a female horned Kossith Tal-Vashoth that wants to prove to the Qun she can be both a woman and a warrior.

[Wrathion]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


I'd disagree.

Let's look at the relationship with Merrill. As a Male Hawke, the clan should hate you a great deal because Merrill would bear a human child -- something she mentions in the romance scene. [/quote] But most of the clan hates Merrill, and doesn't even want her near the camp. Why would they care she was hobnobbing it with some random human? 


[/quote]

[jennamarae]

berelinde wrote...

I get where you're coming from, OP. You want the game world to recognize that you have rolled a male/female/orangutan protagonist, but the game world treats everyone the same, or nearly so. You don't get special quests for choosing one over another, nobody congratulates you for being an exceptional <class> for a <gender>, and few if any Thedosians make derogatory remarks about you and every man/woman/etc like you.

The part I bolded is not entirely true. If you were a dwarven male noble in DAO, there was an additional quest involving having your son recognized even though you were tossed into the Deep Roads and erased from the memories. I only remember that because I went months without knowing it existed and then started a new game as soon as I found out just so I could play through it. Otherwise, though you're pretty much correct.

As for the OP, so that I'm not entirely off-topic, I'd like it if DA3 handles it more like DAO. I enjoyed the little differences, as few as there were, between playing as a male and a female. That is part of the reason I prefer the city elf origin over the others. As dark as it is, there are discernable differences for male and female PCs that take you to the same place but with enough of a shift in perspective to make it feel different. I don't really get all the sexism cries over gender being noticed when appropriate or subtle differences in NPC lines based on the PC's gender..

[XCelfa]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

DA2 handled it fine. There's no reason to make player sex a major issue, especially in a world like Thedas that's demonstrably more equal than our world at that time.

I'd disagree.

Let's look at the relationship with Merrill. As a Male Hawke, the clan should hate you a great deal because Merrill would bear a human child -- something she mentions in the romance scene.

This might be done in offhand dialogue prompts, or certain cutscenes, or whatever.

As a Female Hawke however, they wouldn't hate Merrill as much in this regard. They'd still hate her, much as they do in-game regardless of romance. But on this issue their hatred of her wouldn't be as much as it would be for a Male Hawke, because she's not going to have a human child. She won't be having a child at all, really, unless she adopts or Hawke is open for a threesome or whatnot.

I think that'd be an interesting perspective that would give gender a sense of importance.

Along with dealings with the Qunari, or a female horned Kossith Tal-Vashoth that wants to prove to the Qun she can be both a woman and a warrior.

The divide between the pro-gender recognition and those against it is immersion [for pro-recognition] and offense and wanting for one's sex not to matter  [for anti-recognition]. Looking at it from a step back, I think it would be wiser for games to continue subtle nods at the difference, such as the one you mentioned. Anything more than is already done, however... would do nothing more than alienate. It's a no-brainer.

And regarding the Kossith... in almost every movie or form of media that involves a female heroine or crucial character, she is almost always depicted as having gained her power from negative experiences. [The new Lara Croft game, for instance, throws rape in as an example of this trope] It's common for females. Male heroes, on the other hand, don't normally require explanation. At face value, he's a badass. No one questions how or why; he just is. I'd prefer for more female characters to be shown in this way. It would be nice if all female heroines didn't require a footnote to be taken seriously...

[TEWR]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...
 But most of the clan hates Merrill, and doesn't even want her near the camp. Why would they care she was hobnobbing it with some random human? 

They'd hate her even more for it, which was what I said. They'd view it as another damning indication against her.

They already hate her based on lies fed to them by Marethari and her using blood magic -- due to them ignoring the circumstances, what led to it, and what resulted from her using blood magic. Them hating her even more for her being with a Human -- being with a male PC garnering more ire from them towards her then a female PC would -- isn't something outlandish, when you think about it.

Especially when Merrill herself notes that the clan will hate her for what she's doing, despite the fact that they already hate her anyway.

XCelfa wrote...

I'd prefer for more female characters to be shown in this way. It would be nice if all female heroines didn't require a footnote to be taken seriously...

Or alternatively, apply the same logic to the male heroes -- well, really companions. Fenris was a good example of that.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Why should they be more angry about male Hawke? Do they just hate human babies? Neither Hawke can give Merrill an elven child. Isn't that what they're supposed to be angry about?

Because with a Male Hawke, their child would be a human-elven one. With a Female Hawke, while it's true they wouldn't have a child at all this would also eliminate the possibility of a human-elven child.

If it was a human-elven child, while the child would have Elven blood he/she would also still be a human, and the Dalish are about isolating themselves from humanity so as to regain their immortality.

Filament wrote...

Still, I seem to recall a certain elf clan accepting whats-her-name and her son Feynriel back with open arms, despite whatever hypothetical visceral outrage they might have felt.

Arianni was accepted back, but she's still a Dalish Elf -- and hasn't faced the scorn Merrill has. Arianni only believed her clan was pissed at her and left without knowing if this was so.

Merrill's reviled by her clan no matter what she does, more due to Marethari's slander against her.

So two different circumstances.

Additionally, Feynriel wasn't really accepted by the clan. Marethari was willing to teach him and was understanding, but the clan didn't like him.

[Shadow Fox]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

DA2 handled it fine. There's no reason to make player sex a major issue, especially in a world like Thedas that's demonstrably more equal than our world at that time.

I'd disagree.

Let's look at the relationship with Merrill. As a Male Hawke, the clan should hate you a great deal because Merrill would bear a human child -- something she mentions in the romance scene.

This might be done in offhand dialogue prompts, or certain cutscenes, or whatever.

As a Female Hawke however, they wouldn't hate Merrill as much in this regard. They'd still hate her, much as they do in-game regardless of romance. But on this issue their hatred of her wouldn't be as much as it would be for a Male Hawke, because she's not going to have a human child. She won't be having a child at all, really, unless she adopts or Hawke is open for a threesome or whatnot.

I think that'd be an interesting perspective that would give gender a sense of importance.

Along with dealings with the Qunari, or a female horned Kossith Tal-Vashoth that wants to prove to the Qun she can be both a woman and a warrior.

Uh Merril pretty much says they can't possiblly hate her anymore than they do already when you ask her to move in with you.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 09 octobre 2012 - 11:42 .

[berelinde]

TEWR walks into a thread. It instantly becomes all about Merrill.

I'm not complaining. The relationship between a Dalish elf and a human is an interesting one.

[Nefla]

XCelfa wrote...

Nefla wrote...

I'm a woman and I like my female characters to be occasionally sexually harrassed/demeaned. As part of that, I also like the opportunity to prove the person wrong/insult/intimidate them, etc...It just adds more to the story. I also like playing the underdog (in my very first playthrough of DA:O I was an elf mage because both elves and mages were discriminated against and downtrodden) and proving myself though my skills and in a game that strongly resembles medieval Europe, you'd expect women to suffer at least some discrimination.

Maybe I feel this way because in real life I am very confident. Unlike some other women, I am not afraid of men in any way shape or form. I feel like even if I was physically attacked I could hold my own. Also most people in my life including strangers I meet are decent and not weird, sleazy, sexist, or demeaning and if they are, just ignore them and move on with your life, who cares? Stop being such a victim. People don't say things like "whaat? A woman can't be a doctor, that's just crazy talk!" anymore and I even make sexist-against women jokes sometimes "oh no I left the kitchen where I belong!" or whatever because the concept is hilariously ridiculous

I would also like to see more gender specific pronouns/titles! I want to be called ma'am, my lady, miss, etc...instead of "serrah" like men are called.

Eh. On one hand, you're saying "stop being such a victim" and on the other, you're saying that you like to be occasionally sexually harrassed/demeaned in game. That's problematic, I'm sorry. There are some of us that have lived through these things and find them incredibly cheap plot tools that actually reawaken some of those feelings of dread that we try our best to forget. And to say that you like it?

please do not assume that, because someone doesnt agree with you, that they are afraid of men [whhaaat???] or unconfident. I am fit. I have served. I still serve, in some semblence. But stating that these things could never happen to me would be ridiculous. Your generalization makes you look either a.) oblivious to the past experiences of others or b.) like you just don't care.

Wanting more gender specific pronouns is one thing; having a victimization fetish is another.

Way to ignore my entire post and focus on two little snippets of what I said, taking them out of context.  

-I didn't say "oooh, I love to be beaten/harrassed/etc, it's my total fantasy!" I said I like to be underestimated and then prove the person wrong.

-About the being afraid of men thing I find that people are only really agressive about things they feel are true, or are self conscious about. If I told someone with flawless skin they had horrible acne they would just be like "uh...no" but if I made fun of a person who actually had horrible acne they would probably feel bad. Women who get so outraged/flustered when men hit on them or even just compliment them are often women who feel weak and powerless next to men, and subconsciously afraid that the man will do something to them. If some guy tells me something lewd or sexist or whatever I'm just gonna roll my eyes and keep walking. No skin off my nose. Seriously, in what way does that affect me at all? How is some npc saying "hey baby, how much for a tumble?" when you approach them for a quest any more offensive than "Ferelden dog! Go back to your mud hut country where you belong?" You're not a Fereldan in real life, in real life you don't live in a country considered stupid, backwater, etc...so that doesn't trigger anything, but in real life you ARE a woman and you're only going to get upset about comments like that in a game when you yourself believe (consciously or not) that women are somehow lesser. I do not believe that women are lesser in any way, I am not restricted in any way irl because of being a woman so those comments are fun to: prove wrong, surprise the person saying it by being a badass or punching them in the face, or whatever the situation calls for. ALSO, at least one person in this thread said something about being intimidated by/afraid of men irl.

-I'm sorry if you've been abused irl, I really am and maybe being told "hey baby come over here" by a male npc might trigger a memory of rape/molest but there are MANY things in the games that could be triggers to many people, and most of them are much closer to the mark than a flirtatious or sexist comment. People that lost family to terrorist bombings seeing Anders blow up the chantry, people who have had loved ones murdered seeing Leandra murdered in such a horrible way, etc...if you took out everything that might trigger something for somebody you'd have tetris.