200 réponses à ce sujet

[CuriousArtemis]

How about NO. Know where I'm treated differently because of my sex? IN THE REAL WORLD. That's not why I play games, so no thanks!

[TEWR]

berelinde wrote...

TEWR walks into a thread. It instantly becomes all about Merrill.

I'm not complaining. The relationship between a Dalish elf and a human is an interesting one.

That first bit sounded like the intro to a bar joke . 

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Uh Merril pretty much says they can't possiblly hate her anymore than they do already when you ask her to move in with you.

I know. I know they hate her. I'm talking in a theoretical scenario using the Merrill relationship as a foundation for this premise where gender can change a little bit about how it plays out.

Filament wrote...

By the nature of it I think they would hate her just for being with a human regardless.

I'm not trying to say they wouldn't hate her for being with a Female Hawke. Just that being with a Male Hawke might -- for lack of a better phrase -- add insult to injury in their minds.

Filament wrote...

And I don't think the Arianni situation is that different for the scope of this discussion

In the context of the Merrill situation, it is. Arianni's only slight against her clan was that she was with a human man, which she thought made her clan hate her. Whether that's true or not is unknown, as it wasn't Marethari's clan that she was an original member of.

Merrill however has done other things that earned her the ire of her clanmates, more so after Marethari spread lies about her to the clan.

For her to be with a human -- male or female -- they're going to hate her even more. They're not thinking rationally in regards to Merrill -- Act 3 is enough proof of that -- and so they're not going to distinguish Merrill being with a human from Arianni being with a human.

To them, it'd be a sign that Merrill's abandoning her people even more -- despite that being untrue -- and they'd hate her even more for it.

The clan isn't capable of making a distinction like you or I would in regards to Arianni and Merrill being with humans.

I'd also add that for Merrill, she's staying with a Human. For Arianni, she was used by a Human.

[Eternal Phoenix]

KainD wrote...

@Elton John is dead

Our society is going there, yeah. I seriously think that in the future, probably not even far future words "he/she" will be replaced with some universal gender less word. And that "he/she" will be a question asked specifically for matting purposes when you won't always be able to tell by the looks and behavior anymore. I don't think anyone will be able to stop this process nor will future generation children consider it strange anymore.

From what I've seen it's not. As Sable Rhapsody said: "...gender is still a factor in how people dress, think, and judge other people, and a lot of it has little to do with social inequity..." Gender will always be acknowledged. It's part of the human's mind to reflect on someone's appearance and that would include gender naturally. This isn't sexism contrary to the feminist's claims. We men have our gender acknowledged too and I find no offense in that.

JCAP wrote...

Damn, many people missed completely the point. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]


All I meant was that the DA3 should treat this matter the same way as DA:O, and not like DA2.


And for those who brought up the sexism, did I said that the npc's should call a female pc "yo, b****, show your boobs"? Or "I. Want. Sex. NOW!!!"? I never said that!!!!

Off topic:
Or do you have a problem in being woman? Are woman inferior to man? Not in my head (by the way, I am a man).
And why the hell is sexist saying (complimenting or whatever) something about a woman, but about a man isn't?
Grow up and don't be such a victims [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]


I only want that the npc's acknowledge that pc is a male or female; mage, rogue or warrior; blood mage or no blood mage etc...

Stupid flame war [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie][smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie][smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie][smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie][smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie][smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

(sorry my english)

QTF.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 10 octobre 2012 - 12:51 .

[DialupToaster]

motomotogirl wrote...

How about NO. Know where I'm treated differently because of my sex? IN THE REAL WORLD. That's not why I play games, so no thanks!

*reads comment:mellow:

Me: Oh god d***** why can't you read a single comment RIGHT BEFORE THIS ONE!!!

[whykikyouwhy]

Elton John is dead wrote...

KainD wrote...

@Elton John is dead

Our society is going there, yeah. I seriously think that in the future, probably not even far future words "he/she" will be replaced with some universal gender less word. And that "he/she" will be a question asked specifically for matting purposes when you won't always be able to tell by the looks and behavior anymore. I don't think anyone will be able to stop this process nor will future generation children consider it strange anymore.

From what I've seen it's not. As Sable Rhapsody said: "...gender is still a factor in how people dress, think, and judge other people, and a lot of it has little to do with social inequity..." Gender will always be acknowledged. It's part of the human's mind to reflect on someone's appearance and that would include gender naturally. This isn't sexism contrary to the feminist's claims. We men have our gender acknowledged too and I find no offense in that.

Yes, people will acknowledge gender. It's how that gender is acknowledged that can be problematic and/or hurtful to some. When people rely on stereotypes and react from a place of misconception, we don't do much see the heart of the person, the total being. 

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

As long as it's not offensive or hurtful to either gender, this could be an interesting aspect to add to the game.

I'm writing this as a male who plays females more often than males.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 10 octobre 2012 - 01:27 .

[silentassassin264]

I am fine with gender differences if it makes sense. For example, the whiny Orlesian mage, Emile(?), wanted to kiss (at the very least) a girl before going back to the circle. You have the option to volunteer Isabela (who declines) but it completely disregards that a female Hawke is indeed female. Why can Hawke volunteer Isabela but not volunteer herself? Seeing as Hawke can frequent the Blooming Rose as much as Isabela, it isn't like she is a purity Sue and would never do that. It just kind of makes sense to give a female Hawke the option to kiss him.

[Ninja Stan]

Let's please try and keep the discussion game-related, or it will be locked.

[Sable Rhapsody]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
As long as it's not offensive or hurtful to either gender, this could be an interesting aspect to add to the game.

I'm writing this as a male who plays females more often than males.

Then let's try to field suggestions on NPCs responding to gender in a manner that a) makes sense and sets off as few people as possible.  (Personally I find the sleazy stuff like Meeran in DA2 and Harkin in ME1 hilarious.)

The example of Sten talking to a female Warden a few pages back was IMO a good one.  His culture has very different gender paradigms from the typical Ferelden.  It's nice that he acknowledges that, along with class if you're a mage or race if you're not human.  On the flip side, if in DA3 we ever encounter a female qunari, she should comment on the male PC if he occupies a position traditionally held by women in qunari culture.

Thedas culture aside from the qunari doesn't seem to have too many restrictions on either gender, but there are some.  Women, for example, are the only ones allowed to be Chantry priests.  This can get brought up with a more devout male PC.  Female warriors in Orlais often use Avelline as their patron--this should be an option for the female PC.  

And honestly, if people of all genders and/or sexual orientations want to hit on your PC, that's fine too as long as it's relatively equal-opportunity.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 10 octobre 2012 - 02:25 .

[CuriousArtemis]

randomchasegurney wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

How about NO. Know where I'm treated differently because of my sex? IN THE REAL WORLD. That's not why I play games, so no thanks!

*reads comment:mellow:

Me: Oh god d***** why can't you read a single comment RIGHT BEFORE THIS ONE!!!

Well the person right before me is simply saying she isn't bothered by gender discrimination. I'm saying I am. I guess people want to see racism and homophobia in their RPGs, too, but I just see and experience enough of that crap in real life that I don't want to see it in my games. 

But this is usually why I play guys in RPGs anyway. Best way to escape the daily unpleasantness of being female.

[Sable Rhapsody]

motomotogirl wrote...
But this is usually why I play guys in RPGs anyway. Best way to escape the daily unpleasantness of being female.

Self-esteem helps too, as does a sense of humor.  Or barring that, cookies 

Most of the thread is about another way to address world reactivity.  The world reacting to roleplaying decisions like gender, sexual orientation, or race is NOT comparable to racism, sexism, or homophobia.  If you think that's what people are suggesting, then you haven't read most of the posts.

Games that claim to be mature shouldn't just wear the stupid politically correct "everyone's the same we have no differences" blinders.  Gender, race, religion, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, sexuality...these are all elements of how we live our lives.  And they're elements that exist in Thedas and impact each and every character, even if they're not obviously aware of it.  Pretending they don't exist is immersion-breaking and IMO wastes the potential of a gaming genre that claims to reflect player choice.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 10 octobre 2012 - 03:34 .

[FINE HERE]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...
But this is usually why I play guys in RPGs anyway. Best way to escape the daily unpleasantness of being female.

Self-esteem helps too, as does a sense of humor.  Or barring that, cookies 

Most of the thread is about another way to address world reactivity.  The world reacting to roleplaying decisions like gender, sexual orientation, or race is NOT comparable to racism, sexism, or homophobia.  If you think that's what people are suggesting, then you haven't read most of the posts.

Games that claim to be mature shouldn't just wear the stupid politically correct "everyone's the same we have no differences" blinders.  Gender, race, religion, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, sexuality...these are all elements of how we live our lives.  And they're elements that exist in Thedas and impact each and every character, even if they're not obviously aware of it.  Pretending they don't exist is immersion-breaking and IMO wastes the potential of a gaming genre that claims to reflect player choice.

Thank you for saying what I've apparently have failed to say in my few posts in this thread. You're awesome.

[TEWR]

motomotogirl wrote...

I guess people want to see racism and homophobia in their RPGs, too, but I just see and experience enough of that crap in real life that I don't want to see it in my games.

For me, it depends largely on the setting itself. If the setting is created as filled with rampant racism, sexism, and other things then it should reflect that in-game.

Thedas is different. It has those things, but in certain areas and in varying degrees.

[CuriousArtemis]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...
But this is usually why I play guys in RPGs anyway. Best way to escape the daily unpleasantness of being female.

Self-esteem helps too, as does a sense of humor.  Or barring that, cookies 

Most of the thread is about another way to address world reactivity.  The world reacting to roleplaying decisions like gender, sexual orientation, or race is NOT comparable to racism, sexism, or homophobia.  If you think that's what people are suggesting, then you haven't read most of the posts.

Games that claim to be mature shouldn't just wear the stupid politically correct "everyone's the same we have no differences" blinders.  Gender, race, religion, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, sexuality...these are all elements of how we live our lives.  And they're elements that exist in Thedas and impact each and every character, even if they're not obviously aware of it.  Pretending they don't exist is immersion-breaking and IMO wastes the potential of a gaming genre that claims to reflect player choice.

I read a great many of the posts and I understand completely  This is just obviously something I feel very strongly about. Also, I'm not sure what self-esteem has to do with it? I do like cookies though....

I do think BW have the potential to envision a world that is differnent than our own, a world I really want to visit. They've done a great job of that so far (for me) with only a few things here and there that bothered me. In any case, so long as the option to play as a male PC exists (and I can romance other males since I'm a straght girl in real life and that's more fun for me than romancing female LIs ... though I do that, too, of course) then I can escape completely, which is nice. BW already has me walking funny as a woman, wearing a skirt in my own home (which I would never do), and has Anders treating me differently just because I'm a girl. So to play as the person I'd rather be, I have to play as male Hawke. It surprises me that people are calling for even MORE differences between the genders. Doesn't Javeth or Jory express shock at seeing a female Warden, too? But that's regressing, going back to DA:O. DA2 is definitely moving in the right direction, so I hope not to see any backpeddling for DA3.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

motomotogirl wrote...

randomchasegurney wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

How about NO. Know where I'm treated differently because of my sex? IN THE REAL WORLD. That's not why I play games, so no thanks!

*reads comment:mellow:

Me: Oh god d***** why can't you read a single comment RIGHT BEFORE THIS ONE!!!

Well the person right before me is simply saying she isn't bothered by gender discrimination. I'm saying I am. I guess people want to see racism and homophobia in their RPGs, too, but I just see and experience enough of that crap in real life that I don't want to see it in my games. 

But this is usually why I play guys in RPGs anyway. Best way to escape the daily unpleasantness of being female.

But then what about things like murder? I know I couldn't deal with someone constantly wanting to stick a knife in me in real life. It's not so much the actual act but the anticipation of it

[CuriousArtemis]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

I guess people want to see racism and homophobia in their RPGs, too, but I just see and experience enough of that crap in real life that I don't want to see it in my games.

For me, it depends largely on the setting itself. If the setting is created as filled with rampant racism, sexism, and other things then it should reflect that in-game.

Thedas is different. It has those things, but in certain areas and in varying degrees.

Yeah I think what they do with Thedas is reflect those real world issues in ways that don't turn us off or remind us too closely of our own lives. For example, there is racism... but it's against elves, kossith, and so on. Skin color and religion aren't brought into it, so no player feels personally affected when a human character degrades an elf. Ideally, that is. I don't know if that still doesn't touch a nerve for some people. I think the racism issue would be even more palatable if BW DID show humans and elves of varying skin colors so that it was blatantly obvious that skin color has nothing to do with racism in this world. So we can still see people being nasty to each other based on prejudice but it doesn't hit so close to home.

I don't know how to do that with gender. Even your Merrill example strikes me as odd. It seems you want to see the clan to express something that isn't written in-game. Whether Merrill has a human child or no child seems equally unsetting to me in the minds of the Dalish because she is NOT having an elven child. Either she makes more humans or she does nothing. Whichever the case, her blood ends with her. Dalish peeps = annoyed.

[CuriousArtemis]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

randomchasegurney wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

How about NO. Know where I'm treated differently because of my sex? IN THE REAL WORLD. That's not why I play games, so no thanks!

*reads comment:mellow:

Me: Oh god d***** why can't you read a single comment RIGHT BEFORE THIS ONE!!!

Well the person right before me is simply saying she isn't bothered by gender discrimination. I'm saying I am. I guess people want to see racism and homophobia in their RPGs, too, but I just see and experience enough of that crap in real life that I don't want to see it in my games. 

But this is usually why I play guys in RPGs anyway. Best way to escape the daily unpleasantness of being female.

But then what about things like murder? I know I couldn't deal with someone constantly wanting to stick a knife in me in real life. It's not so much the actual act but the anticipation of it

What do you mean? Not sure I understand 

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

motomotogirl wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...
But this is usually why I play guys in RPGs anyway. Best way to escape the daily unpleasantness of being female.

Self-esteem helps too, as does a sense of humor.  Or barring that, cookies 

Most of the thread is about another way to address world reactivity.  The world reacting to roleplaying decisions like gender, sexual orientation, or race is NOT comparable to racism, sexism, or homophobia.  If you think that's what people are suggesting, then you haven't read most of the posts.

Games that claim to be mature shouldn't just wear the stupid politically correct "everyone's the same we have no differences" blinders.  Gender, race, religion, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, sexuality...these are all elements of how we live our lives.  And they're elements that exist in Thedas and impact each and every character, even if they're not obviously aware of it.  Pretending they don't exist is immersion-breaking and IMO wastes the potential of a gaming genre that claims to reflect player choice.

I read a great many of the posts and I understand completely  This is just obviously something I feel very strongly about. Also, I'm not sure what self-esteem has to do with it? I do like cookies though....

I do think BW have the potential to envision a world that is differnent than our own, a world I really want to visit. They've done a great job of that so far (for me) with only a few things here and there that bothered me. In any case, so long as the option to play as a male PC exists (and I can romance other males since I'm a straght girl in real life and that's more fun for me than romancing female LIs ... though I do that, too, of course) then I can escape completely, which is nice. BW already has me walking funny as a woman, wearing a skirt in my own home (which I would never do), and has Anders treating me differently just because I'm a girl. So to play as the person I'd rather be, I have to play as male Hawke. It surprises me that people are calling for even MORE differences between the genders. Doesn't Javeth or Jory express shock at seeing a female Warden, too? But that's regressing, going back to DA:O. DA2 is definitely moving in the right direction, so I hope not to see any backpeddling for DA3.

Forcing women to wear skirts, now THAT is sexism. Both genders should be able to wear trousers or skirts

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

motomotogirl wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

randomchasegurney wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

How about NO. Know where I'm treated differently because of my sex? IN THE REAL WORLD. That's not why I play games, so no thanks!

*reads comment:mellow:

Me: Oh god d***** why can't you read a single comment RIGHT BEFORE THIS ONE!!!

Well the person right before me is simply saying she isn't bothered by gender discrimination. I'm saying I am. I guess people want to see racism and homophobia in their RPGs, too, but I just see and experience enough of that crap in real life that I don't want to see it in my games. 

But this is usually why I play guys in RPGs anyway. Best way to escape the daily unpleasantness of being female.

But then what about things like murder? I know I couldn't deal with someone constantly wanting to stick a knife in me in real life. It's not so much the actual act but the anticipation of it

What do you mean? Not sure I understand 

I just mean the intentions of fictional characters shouldn't affect you much, I mean in both games 99% of the characters are out for your blood (even those poor wolves!), surely that's a much bigger issue than sexism or racism?

[CuriousArtemis]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

Forcing women to wear skirts, now THAT is sexism. Both genders should be able to wear trousers or skirts

Here, here! (Or is that "Hear, hear"?) 

[Sable Rhapsody]

motomotogirl wrote...
I do think BW have the potential to envision a world that is differnent than our own, a world I really want to visit. They've done a great job of that so far (for me) with only a few things here and there that bothered me. In any case, so long as the option to play as a male PC exists (and I can romance other males since I'm a straght girl in real life and that's more fun for me than romancing female LIs ... though I do that, too, of course) then I can escape completely, which is nice.

OK, escapism is one thing, but think long and hard before deciding you'd want to hang out in Thedas.  It's not a nice place.  I'd rather go to just about anywhere over Thedas (except maybe Westeros).  IMO if BioWare wants to deal with gender, discrimination and inequities and all, in their game in a thoughtful and mature manner, that's their prerogative.  Nothing ever said they have to make DA into some sort of escapist fantasy, even if there's an element of escapism to all RPGs.  Besides, I don't know if I'd call a game in which the City Elf loses his/her fiance in an act of horrendous racial violence "escapist."  And both games can end really, really badly for the protagonist irrespective of gender.  

BioWare also deals with poverty and social class in DA:O and DA2 without the use of fantasy stand-ins like the elves for the race issue; people by and large didn't flip out, and socioeconomic issues are hugely sensitive IRL.  If they can pull it off for that, I think they can also address gender in a manner that's meaningful without upsetting too many people.

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...
Forcing women to wear skirts, now THAT is sexism. Both genders should be able to wear trousers or skirts [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Hawke approves.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 10 octobre 2012 - 04:34 .

[CuriousArtemis]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

I just mean the intentions of fictional characters shouldn't affect you much, I mean in both games 99% of the characters are out for your blood (even those poor wolves!), surely that's a much bigger issue than sexism or racism?

Oh I see. I think. Well I have never been threatened with murder before so it doesn't affect me when the PC is threatened. 

[CuriousArtemis]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...
I do think BW have the potential to envision a world that is differnent than our own, a world I really want to visit. They've done a great job of that so far (for me) with only a few things here and there that bothered me. In any case, so long as the option to play as a male PC exists (and I can romance other males since I'm a straght girl in real life and that's more fun for me than romancing female LIs ... though I do that, too, of course) then I can escape completely, which is nice.

OK, escapism is one thing, but think long and hard before deciding you'd want to hang out in Thedas.  It's not a nice place.  I'd rather go to just about anywhere over Thedas (except maybe Westeros).  IMO if BioWare wants to deal with gender, discrimination and inequities and all, in their game in a thoughtful and mature manner, that's their prerogative.  Nothing ever said they have to make DA into some sort of escapist fantasy, even if there's an element of escapism to all RPGs.  Besides, I don't know if I'd call a game in which the City Elf loses his/her fiance in an act of horrendous racial violence "escapist."  And both games can end really, really badly for the protagonist irrespective of gender.  

BioWare also deals with poverty and social class in DA:O and DA2 without the use of fantasy stand-ins like the elves for the race issue; people by and large didn't flip out, and socioeconomic issues are hugely sensitive IRL.  If they can pull it off for that, I think they can also address gender in a manner that's meaningful without upsetting too many people.

LOL I hit "reply" before you added the pic and it just suddenly popped up in my reply box and scared the crap out of me 

Oh well I explained why I think the racism/elf thing works above.

Well I wouldn't want to live in Thedas either. Someone is always trying to kill you. And Westeros, oh god. 

No I'm not dictating what BW can and can't do. I'm just giving my opinion on what I like about the games and what I would like to see in DA3.

[Sable Rhapsody]

motomotogirl wrote...
Oh well I explained why I think the racism/elf thing works above.

Well I wouldn't want to live in Thedas either. Someone is always trying to kill you. And Westeros, oh god. 

Racism uses a stand-in--the elves and dwarves.  But there's a very serious treatment of immigration, poverty, and mistreatment of newcomers during Act 1 of DA2.  That's an issue that affects a lot of people IRL, and it's done with no fantasy stand-in.  It even involves the protagonist and his/her family.  And as far as I've seen, no one's gotten all up in arms about it.

You CAN treat senstive issues like poverty or gender WITHOUT the use of a fantasy construct, and if DA2 is any indication, you can do it without pissing too many people off.

[LliiraAnna]

I would like more responses and role-playing options, though I think that race (especially non-human) and class (especially mage) should matter more than gender.
Imo gender should be recognized only by the NPCs who should do so because of their character (just like was written before, a woman that hates man should be at least distrustfull of the male PC, and so on)
As for the LIs, I am okay with bisexual NPCs as long as there are at least some differences between male and female playthroughs. Otherwise it seems kinda weird to me.