83 réponses à ce sujet

[Flambrose]

Necro or not, I agree with the OP. Cryo Blast needs a base radius or a longer duration. Letting it prime CEs on chilled targets wouldn't be too broken either considering Cryo Blast's CEs are so weak.

Anyone saying FQE is a good class is full of it. It's not, compared to other engineers at least. Sentry Turret needs some serious work as well.

[Deerber]

Flambrose wrote...

Necro or not, I agree with the OP. Cryo Blast needs a base radius or a longer duration. Letting it prime CEs on chilled targets wouldn't be too broken either considering Cryo Blast's CEs are so weak.

Anyone saying FQE is a good class is full of it. It's not, compared to other engineers at least. Sentry Turret needs some serious work as well.

The Saboteur is - a lot - worse. The Hunter is worse as well. The Salarian probably on the same level.

Yeah she's not the most powerful kit. But they can't all be the most powerful kit.

[Shinnyshin]

Flambrose wrote...

Necro or not, I agree with the OP. Cryo Blast needs a base radius or a longer duration. Letting it prime CEs on chilled targets wouldn't be too broken either considering Cryo Blast's CEs are so weak.

I think people are a lot harsher on Cryo Blast than it perhaps deserves.  The explosion thing is a pain, I'll give you that.  But it's an incredibly powerful AoE debuff that can reach across the whole map.  I actually think giving it the ability to detonate combos would be enough.  Easily enough.

Flambrose wrote...

Anyone saying FQE is a good class is full of it. It's not, compared to other engineers at least. Sentry Turret needs some serious work as well.

I think you might have that backwards...  It is, compared to other Engineers, but isn't compared to the powerhouses of other classes.  And I feel like it's a mish-mash of really bad and really good aspects that somehow averages out to be above-average but in need of major QoL buffs.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 janvier 2013 - 04:05 .

[Flambrose]

Human/Male Quarian Engineer put her to shame. So do the Geth and Volus.

I would put the Hunter and Saboteur on the same level, and the Salarian a bit below. A sentry buff would help two of these bad kits, and a cryo blast buff would help the havoc, who is still feeling that stim nerf. I can't see a reason not to do it.

[Fortack]

Flambrose wrote...

Anyone saying FQE is a good class is full of it. It's not, compared to other engineers at least. Sentry Turret needs some serious work as well.

Right. And the Geth Turret, Combat Drone and Decoy are amazing ...

The FQE is a very good character and definitely the best Engineer to look at from behind

Human/Male Quarian Engineer put her to shame. So do the Geth and Volus.

Well, Arc nades are quite OP but the FQE is on par with the other ones and ahead of them all against both Reapers and Collectors. At least when you play her right.

Modifié par Fortack, 18 janvier 2013 - 04:10 .

[Shinnyshin]

Flambrose wrote...

Human/Male Quarian Engineer put her to shame. So do the Geth and Volus.

I would put the Hunter and Saboteur on the same level, and the Salarian a bit below. A sentry buff would help two of these bad kits, and a cryo blast buff would help the havoc, who is still feeling that stim nerf. I can't see a reason not to do it.

Base Human Engineer is amazingly good, I'll give you that.  Male Quarian...yeah, pretty strong--though I suspect he loses to her on consistent single-target output.  Probably still wins overall, though.  'Nades.

I'd definitely put Vorcha, Turian, Salarian, and Demolisher below her.  Probably Geth too, but Geth is really circumstantial.  He can outshine her but often won't.  Volus is weird.  Probably below her but...weird.  I'm going to leave him out.  Because he's weird.

So she's behind 2 Engineers (still a lil' iffy on one of those) and ahead of 5, at least by my count.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 janvier 2013 - 04:09 .

[megabeast37215]

Deerber wrote...

The Saboteur is - a lot - worse. The Hunter is worse as well. The Salarian probably on the same level.

Yeah she's not the most powerful kit. But they can't all be the most powerful kit.

How dare you put the Salarian in the same catagory... Energy Drain and Incinerate alone make a good power set.

The Decoy is super duper awesome vs Geth.... but yeah that's pretty much it.

We've been picking map/faction for Plat alot over the last few days.... it's been much more fun. Picking Geth and taking a bunch of classes meant for dealing with them, is actually a good bit of fun.

[Flambrose]

Male Quarian vs female is no contest. Even if FQE can nudge out against a single target, scan and mass crowd control make him better by light years.

And yes, Geth Turret and combat drone are better than sentry turret. They could all use work, but sentry turret is the worst of them. Well, better than decoy at least.

Again, there's no reason not to buff cryo blast and sentry turret. Havoc needs it, Saboteur needs it, FQE needs it.

[Shinnyshin]

Flambrose wrote...

Male Quarian vs female is no contest. Even if FQE can nudge out against a single target, scan and mass crowd control make him better by light years.

She can't match up to one of the strongest engineers who spams Arc Grenades.  I'll give you that

Flambrose wrote...And yes, Geth Turret and combat drone are better than sentry turret. They could all use work, but sentry turret is the worst of them. Well, better than decoy at least.

Again, there's no reason not to buff cryo blast and sentry turret. Havoc needs it, Saboteur needs it, FQE needs it.

She has one really underwhelming ability and one that needs QoL buffs.  That by no means signifies that she's underpowered.  That elements of her kits are clunky doesn't mean that her kit as a whole is underpowered.  You could probably convince me that she's underpowered with a solid argument--my opinion is by no means set in absolute stone.  But saying that you don't like one power and a few aspects of another power doesn't necessarily mean she's weak compared to peers that often have worse issues.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 janvier 2013 - 04:24 .

[Flambrose]

Cryo Blast priming CEs is a bit more than QoL. I shouldn't have to feel like I'm purposefully gimping myself for playing her just to stare at jiggly bum-bum for the next 20 minutes.

Hunter IMO does what he does well enough. His selling point is bloodlust and tech bursts from subnet. His biggest issue is subnet's bad tracking. Geth makes a lethal user of GPS and has great crowd control between overload and his turret. Even Demolisher wins out on crowd control and single target damage IMO, though I'm not a big Demo fan by any stretch.

Female Quarian... can debuff armor and use incinerate on it for extra damage. Her only tech combo works on fully frozen health only. Basically all she has going for her is the fact that CB debuffs and she can throw a turret around to maybe draw enemy fire.

[megawug]

I've play both the HE and fQE regularly, and there's no comparison. The HE is gold viable, the fQE is best on silver. Because of the way cyro blast works, it is nowhere near reliable to pull off CEs. So you end up having to carry a heavier weapon to compensate, which affects her cooldowns.

She's not a bad class, especially at dance parties.

Modifié par megawug, 18 janvier 2013 - 04:34 .

[HolyAvenger]

megawug wrote...

I've play both the HE and fQE regularly, and there's no comparison. The HE is gold viable, the fQE is best on silver. Because of the way cyro blast works, it is nowhere near reliable to pull off CEs. So you end up having to carry a heavier weapon to compensate, which affects her cooldowns.

This is nonsense. I regularly play her on Platinum. CB is a fantastic boss debuffer, and paired with a lightweight yet high damage gun like a Hurricane, she is kills them quickly when used in conjunction with incinerate nuking.

She's like a lot of adepts, her powers are poor against shielded enemies. Take an Acolyte or Talon or throw some Phasic ammo on and she works well.

[Shinnyshin]

Flambrose wrote...

Cryo Blast priming CEs is a bit more than QoL. I shouldn't have to feel like I'm purposefully gimping myself for playing her just to stare at jiggly bum-bum for the next 20 minutes.

Cryo Blast fell behind because of the combo changes.  It was pretty par for the course with the way things worked.  The game developed to incorporate Elemental Combos with much more frequency and the old setup for Cryo Blast fell behind as it wasn't suited to that change.  Its bad mechanics are a holdover from when the game's mechanics were different.  I thought that was practically the definition of QoL changes.

Flambrose wrote...

Hunter IMO does what he does well enough. His selling point is bloodlust and tech bursts from subnet. His biggest issue is subnet's bad tracking. Geth makes a lethal user of GPS and has great crowd control between overload and his turret. Even Demolisher wins out on crowd control and single target damage IMO, though I'm not a big Demo fan by any stretch.

Female Quarian... can debuff armor and use incinerate on it for extra damage. Her only tech combo works on fully frozen health only. Basically all she has going for her is the fact that CB debuffs and she can throw a turret around to maybe draw enemy fire.

Geth has good CC, yes.  But, like the QFE, he can't independently set up combos without using ammo--something you consider a major downside of the QFE.  Her Cryo Blast CCs trash almost as well as his turret, though his turret is fire-and-forget which is an advantage.  And it can handle slightly higher grade opponents.  More importantly, though, the Geth Engineer has one active power.  One.  That's a major downside.  Similar story for Sentinel, with the unreliability of Submission.  Demolisher doesn't win out in sustained crowd control, just burst control if that makes sense.

You kinda brush off the Cryo Blast + Incinerate combo, but that's huuuge.  Many other classes with Incinerate you have to either spec suboptimally or always run Cryo Ammo.  The ability to add that Incinerate Damage is huge.  And Turret applies the Chilled/Frozen condition as well for more Incinerate.  Plus the range.  A lot of people say Cryo is just a worse version of Snap Freeze.  Which it is in many ways at close range.  But...let's just put it this way.  You'd never play a Paladin as a sniper.

While I'll concede she has her flaws, you seem to have a very noticeable double standard, a bias against the QFE.  A lot of the downsides you slammed her on are more-than-present in your comparisons, but you glossed over them there.

megawug wrote...

I've play both the HE and fQE regularly, and there's no comparison. The HE is gold viable, the fQE is best on silver. Because of the way cyro blast works, it is nowhere near reliable to pull off CEs. So you end up having to carry a heavier weapon to compensate, which affects her cooldowns.

She's not a bad class, especially at dance parties.
[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

False.  I can reliably carry Gold with her while using way suboptimal loadouts (challenges are painful) and I'm not even that good.  I'd argue she's worse on lower difficulties because your debuffs don't matter since they determine whether a target dies in 1.5 seconds or 1.7 seconds.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 janvier 2013 - 04:47 .

[Lajkos]

Beelzebubs wrote...

FQE is a great class to play, it was a good class even before cryo/incinerate was "fixed". It really doesn't need buffs.

This.

The only thing I would like to see is that they remove the range limit on the turrets rockets. But really she is fine as she is now

[megawug]

HolyAvenger wrote...

megawug wrote...

I've play both the HE and fQE regularly, and there's no comparison. The HE is gold viable, the fQE is best on silver. Because of the way cyro blast works, it is nowhere near reliable to pull off CEs. So you end up having to carry a heavier weapon to compensate, which affects her cooldowns.

This is nonsense. I regularly play her on Platinum. CB is a fantastic boss debuffer, and paired with a lightweight yet high damage gun like a Hurricane, she is kills them quickly when used in conjunction with incinerate nuking.

She's like a lot of adepts, her powers are poor against shielded enemies. Take an Acolyte or Talon or throw some Phasic ammo on and she works well.

I think it's just your skill level is so high that it's possible to play her on platinum.  You're probably the exception to the rule, rather than the norm, for a fQE player.

[Deerber]

My opinion on the matter is the following: she's not a super character. Not one of the worst, either. She's around average. Sadly, lots of people do not get how to play her - I should know, cause I didn't too, before Fortack enlightened me. And I have to say, with all respect, that I think the two guys advocating for a buff to her are among those who do not have clear ideas about how to play her right.

That said, being average and not powerful by any means, I wouldn't argue against a buff.

Oh and all of that... Is not considering this:

Fortack wrote...

The FQE is a very good character and definitely the best Engineer to look at from behind

Which, alone, makes for a very important reason to play her!

[HolyAvenger]

megawug wrote...


I think it's just your skill level is so high that it's possible to play her on platinum.  You're probably the exception to the rule, rather than the norm, for a fQE player.

I'm not a great player, I've just figured out her strengths and weaknesses and how to compensate for the latter and utilise the former.

Not all engineers are about techsplosions. Focus on the debuff rather than shattering icicles (if you want that, play a Paladin).

[Shinnyshin]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Not all engineers are about techsplosions. Focus on the debuff rather than shattering icicles (if you want that, play a Paladin). 

100% agreed.  That said, her single-target rotation feels a little awkward.  Cryo to shooting/incerating until you think they're not chilled anymore, back to Cryo.  I'd love to see a bigger incentive for reapplying Cryo that could be weaved into your rhythm.  Having Cryo detonate Incinerate would be perfect.

[Miniditka77]

Flambrose wrote...

Necro or not, I agree with the OP. Cryo Blast needs a base radius or a longer duration. Letting it prime CEs on chilled targets wouldn't be too broken either considering Cryo Blast's CEs are so weak.

Anyone saying FQE is a good class is full of it. It's not, compared to other engineers at least. Sentry Turret needs some serious work as well.

This is the only change Cryo Blast needs.  Let it prime CE's on all targets.  The recharge speed is so quick that giving it a bigger radius could make it OP, and it already has a radius evolution anyway.  It would instantly become the quickest primer power on the game.  This buff would also turn the Havoc Soldier from an average character into an awesome character.

I would support a buff to the Sentry Turret as well, that thing is just awful and almost not worth speccing into.

[LemurFromTheId]

FQE needs a buff, and the buff she needs is a Sentry Turret buff. Cryo Blast and Incinerate are perfectly fine and she does very well with them, but the turret is definitely sub-par compared to those two powers. The final two ranks are expecially bad considering the mechanics of the turret.

[Flambrose]

An unbiased review of Incinerate and Cryo Incinerate:

Incinerate has a base power of 330. It gains 45% from the passive, and 50% from rank 3 and 4 (if you choose damage over radius, which you shouldn't, but for the sake of argument let's roll with it).

That gives it 643.5 damage. Cryo Blast does (close to) 0 damage, but debuffs the target by 25%. Freeze Combo doubles the damage. Fire DoT gives 50% off the total. That's 1608.75 damage, 2413.125 including the DoT. Against armor this value is further multiplied by 1.5x, 3619.7 total.

Incinerate on its own can only benefit from armor damage and fire DoT. That's 965.25 damage, 1447.875 including DoT. 2171.8. total against armor.

At 200%, incinerate has a cooldown of 2.46 seconds while cryo blast has a cooldown of 1.54 seconds. 3619.7 armor damage/4.00 seconds = 904.9 damage per second against armor.

At 200%, armor damage incinerate has an armor DPS of 2171.8 / 2.46s = 882.8

These values obviously assume you are spamming your powers at 200% nonstop, and do not assume your DPS varies due to incendiary DoT. If I'm doin' it wrong please inform me.

[megawug]

HolyAvenger wrote...

megawug wrote...

I think it's just your skill level is so high that it's possible to play her on platinum.  You're probably the exception to the rule, rather than the norm, for a fQE player.

I'm not a great player, I've just figured out her strengths and weaknesses and how to compensate for the latter and utilise the former.

Not all engineers are about techsplosions. Focus on the debuff rather than shattering icicles (if you want that, play a Paladin).

You're a platinum player who finishes first with an "average" class.  If you're not considered a good player, then who is???

I'll try the fQE again, but I've never been able to hold back phantoms and dragoons with the fQE like the HE.

[LemurFromTheId]

Flambrose wrote...

An unbiased review of Incinerate and Cryo Incinerate:

Incinerate has a base power of 330. It gains 45% from the passive, and 50% from rank 3 and 4 (if you choose damage over radius, which you shouldn't, but for the sake of argument let's roll with it).

That gives it 643.5 damage. Cryo Blast does (close to) 0 damage, but debuffs the target by 25%. Freeze Combo doubles the damage. Fire DoT gives 50% off the total. That's 1608.75 damage, 2413.125 including the DoT. Against armor this value is further multiplied by 1.5x, 3619.7 total.

Incinerate on its own can only benefit from armor damage and fire DoT. That's 965.25 damage, 1447.875 including DoT. 2171.8. total against armor.

At 200%, incinerate has a cooldown of 2.46 seconds while cryo blast has a cooldown of 1.54 seconds. 3619.7 armor damage/4.00 seconds = 904.9 damage per second against armor.

At 200%, armor damage incinerate has an armor DPS of 2171.8 / 2.46s = 882.8

These values obviously assume you are spamming your powers at 200% nonstop, and do not assume your DPS varies due to incendiary DoT. If I'm doin' it wrong please inform me.

Good job with the calculations!

Now do the same for CB > Claymore > Incinerate > Claymore > Claymore rotation.

[HolyAvenger]

Yes but CB also debuffs for weapon damage. And you can carry a Hurricane and have 200% CD.

[Flambrose]

So in the end, you get a small DPS advantage just spamming powers from cryo blast. The biggest benefit to cryo blast is the ability to debuff a target for weapon damage and armor weakening. That's a bit harder to quantify since weapon choice is up to you. If you're on PC, you can have a Hurricane do all the work for you because it's so much easier to use on PC. The rest of us either do subpar with it or use another SMG or pistol. The lucky ones (myself included) can use a high level Talon to achieve this.

I'm not talking about balancing FQE as a weapon class. There's a reason people stuff high DPS weapons on her, and it's because that's the biggest benefit she gets from cryo blast. I can put a Mattock or Talon X on her and do well for myself, but as a power class she is subpar.

And no, I don't place particularly high value on combos. It just so happens that on the HE and MQE they easily make up the difference. CC is IMO much more important than single target damage, and FQE would have so much more of it if she could detonate cryo explosions on chilled targets. Even if it did, her CC would still be worse than a user of overload, so why not give it to her?