83 réponses à ce sujet

[Shinnyshin]

Flambrose wrote...

The biggest benefit to cryo blast is the ability to debuff a target for weapon damage and armor weakening. That's a bit harder to quantify since weapon choice is up to you. If you're on PC, you can have a Hurricane do all the work for you because it's so much easier to use on PC. The rest of us either do subpar with it or use another SMG or pistol. The lucky ones (myself included) can use a high level Talon to achieve this.

Or Claymore/other good Shotgun/Sniper Rifle.  Plus it's not just armor weakening for you.  It's for the whole team.  That's a HUGE difference imo.

Flambrose wrote...

I'm not talking about balancing FQE as a weapon class. There's a reason people stuff high DPS weapons on her, and it's because that's the biggest benefit she gets from cryo blast. I can put a Mattock or Talon X on her and do well for myself, but as a power class she is subpar.

One of your big perks for the GE is that he's so good with a GPS.  Just sayin'.

Flambrose wrote...

CC is IMO much more important than single target damage.

Very debatable.  She's an insanely good boss-killer, though as you mentioned she's less good with the trash than some of her counterparts.  I've seen groups collapse more often from inability to handle bosses than inability to handle trash.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 janvier 2013 - 05:52 .

[HolyAvenger]

The reason people "stuff" high DPS weapons on her is that her powers are suited to high DPS weapons, and not for power spam. The debuff from CB is better and better the more damage your weapons do.

Haha...CC is markedly less valuable than single target DPS at the highest difficulty levels.

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 18 janvier 2013 - 05:40 .

[LemurFromTheId]

Killing thigs fast is the highest form of CC.

[Flambrose]

HolyAvenger wrote...

The reason people "stuff" high DPS weapons on her is that her powers are suited to high DPS weapons, and not for power spam. The debuff from CB is better and better the more damage your weapons do.

Haha...CC is markedly less valuable than single target DPS at the highest difficulty levels.

Don't go implying I'm a bronze player. CC is everything against 3/4 factions on gold, and Marauders are arguably the most dangerous enemy on Reapers as well. The only difficulty it loses some value on is platinum.

You can stuff a Claymore or Harrier or Hurricane (on PC) on anything and it'll perform well.

And yes, Shin, you have me on the GE. Though with the GE I consider the GPS to be more valuable for CC in conjunction with overload. It absolutely manhandles Cerberus on any difficulty.

[Deerber]

megawug wrote...

You're a platinum player who finishes first with an "average" class.  If you're not considered a good player, then who is???

I'll try the fQE again, but I've never been able to hold back phantoms and dragoons with the fQE like the HE.

Djeck is a good player. But that doesn't mean you cannot be as good as he is :happy:

One suggestion I feel lke giving about Phantoms: use incinerate/cryo blast when she's at range. She will put up her bubble and therefore become very vulnerable for the next few seconds. Projectile powers are very powerful against Phantoms: you may not hit her directly, but you neutralize her to the point that killing her is incredibly easy.

About Dragoons I wouldn't know... I usually CB them from a distance, take soft cover, let them run up to me, and then blow their head away with ma' claymoar 

Aedolon wrote...

Now do the same for CB > Claymore > Incinerate > Claymore > Claymore rotation. 

Hehe... Looks like you get it, my friend 

Flambrose wrote...

So in the end, you get a small DPS advantage just spamming powers from cryo blast. The biggest benefit to cryo blast is the ability to debuff a target for weapon damage and armor weakening. 

Exactly. Not every engineer/adept should be about spamming powers. Some of them are about debuffing things, and hitting them with weapons - with a side of 'splosions.



That said, I honestly don't think that make cryo blast prime protected targets would do much bad, so I won't argue against that.

But a buff to the turret? Well yes, that thing needs it for real.

Modifié par Deerber, 18 janvier 2013 - 06:01 .

[HolyAvenger]

Flambrose wrote...
Don't go implying I'm a bronze player. CC is everything against 3/4 factions on gold, and Marauders are arguably the most dangerous enemy on Reapers as well. The only difficulty it loses some value on is platinum.

You can stuff a Claymore or Harrier or Hurricane (on PC) on anything and it'll perform well.

 

I highly disagree wrt CC "being everything". If that was the case, infiltrators and their burst damage would not rule the metagame roost. CC is markedly inferior to, y'know, killing stuff. I'm not implying anything about your skill, just talking about my experience playing at gold/plat.

Actually, I primarily play her with an Acolyte, and only whip out the ol' Hurricane for boss killing. Feel free to check out how I use her with that vid I posted before.

Like I've said over and over...yes, she's weak to shields. To make her effective, you have compensate for that in her weapon and ammo loadout. That does NOT mean she needs a buff. Not that I wouldn't be happy with one, of course.

[Deerber]

Flambrose wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

The reason people "stuff" high DPS weapons on her is that her powers are suited to high DPS weapons, and not for power spam. The debuff from CB is better and better the more damage your weapons do.

Haha...CC is markedly less valuable than single target DPS at the highest difficulty levels.

Don't go implying I'm a bronze player. CC is everything against 3/4 factions on gold, and Marauders are arguably the most dangerous enemy on Reapers as well. The only difficulty it loses some value on is platinum.

Uhm... Not always. Depends on who you play with. Depends on your team's strenght, and on how fast it can clear the map. Cause the faster it is, the less CC will matter. Eventually, if you play with really good people, it's all about killing stuff and nothing about CC. Enemies don't get the chance to shoot anyway.

Not trying to be a jerk and implying that you don't play with good people, I'm just trying to point out why Caerdon and Djeck don't value CC highly 

Modifié par Deerber, 18 janvier 2013 - 06:04 .

[Deerber]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Like I've said over and over...yes, she's weak to shields.

I really don't understand all this "she's weak to shield" thing. Ma' claymoar kills things, shielded or not 

[HolyAvenger]

Deerber wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Like I've said over and over...yes, she's weak to shields.

I really don't understand all this "she's weak to shield" thing. Ma' claymoar kills things, shielded or not 

 

Hence why its a crutch weapon for scrubs

[Shinnyshin]

Flambrose wrote...

Don't go implying I'm a bronze player. CC is everything against 3/4 factions on gold, and Marauders are arguably the most dangerous enemy on Reapers as well. The only difficulty it loses some value on is platinum.

A fair point, if a bit of an oversimplification.  CC is everything against a fraction of 3/4ths of the factions on Gold.  How threatening that fraction is VERY dependent on your team.  I find the QFE extremely capable against every faction's weakest unit (up to Cannibals on Reapers, same with Collectors) what with the AoE freeze.  So that means she's least advantaged against Marauders/Hunters/Rocket Troopers/Captains/Centurions.  Given my particular playstyle, I have no problems with most of these units though I'm probably slightly worse against Dragoon types and Hunters, so I can't really comment on that.  

All I can say is that the Gold PUGs I've been dealing with lately struggle the most to down boss units.  A lot of them spend metric eons trying to down a Banshee or Brute (or the armor stage of the other boss types) while everything else creeps up on us.   Once I remove those massive bullet-soaks from the equation, things smooth out again.  If the listed smaller units are your group's bane, then I can see how she'd be suboptimal.  Also, most factions have an incredibly painful cannot-be-ignored armor only unit that's not quite a boss and can be downed, but requires a bit of attention.  She deals exceptionally well with these too. 

Flambrose wrote...You can stuff a Claymore or Harrier or Hurricane (on PC) on anything and it'll perform well.

And it'll perform especially well on her.  Better than well, even.  Compare her Claymore or Harrier or Hurricane output to a class without her debuffs.  Also, that team debuff.  People always measure the egocentric bonus and forget about the team stuff.  Put her on a team with someone who has Warp and watch the bosses.

Flambrose wrote...And yes, Shin, you have me on the GE. Though with the GE I consider the GPS to be more valuable for CC in conjunction with overload. It absolutely manhandles Cerberus on any difficulty.

Thanks!  Do want to point out that your points are well-reasoned and that while I do disagree with you, it's from a purely discussion standpoint.  To clarify.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 janvier 2013 - 06:14 .

[Hook-n-Swoop]

Make cryo blast prime everything and that's it.

[HolyAvenger]

Hook-n-Swoop wrote...

Make cryo blast prime everything and that's it.

Like a ranged Snap Freeze? Which is already one of the most OP powers in the game?

[Zjarcal]

Honestly, with the change to make fire and cryo explosions not require the enemies' death, the fix to Incinerate's freeze combo evolution, and the introduction of multiple alternatives for her to deal with her main weakness which is shields (acolyte, phasic ammo, disruptor now having a 4x multiplier against shields and barriers), I really don't think she's in need of a buff. I could've seen the argument before, but her main weaknesses of before aren't really an issue anymore.

Her turret could use some small work sure, but even as it is it serves as a good distraction and the shock evolution has enough force to stun phantoms (albeit very, very briefly). Plus, it can setup fire explosions with the flamethrower.

She's never been and never will be an easy character to play to her max potential (although using an acolyte, it does get brain dead easy), but she's great in the hands of a good player.

HolyAvenger wrote...

Hook-n-Swoop wrote...

Make cryo blast prime everything and that's it.

 

Like a ranged Snap Freeze? Which is already one of the most OP powers in the game?

Make it prime armor, that would be fair.

Same for lame cryo ammo.... <_<

Modifié par Zjarcal, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:42 .

[Shinnyshin]

Hook-n-Swoop wrote...

Make cryo blast prime everything and that's it.

Snap Freeze (like Flamer) works because it's short-range enough to require positioning and because we know a lot of the damage comes from a bug.  If it could be used across the map, it would be obscenely overpowered and we'd see nothing but SF spammers all day--and that'd be a GOOD tactical decision.  I...don't think anyone wants Cryo Blast to be that.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 janvier 2013 - 06:17 .

[ROBOTICSUPERMAN]

cryoblast needs to take effect faster, it either has to be instant like snap freeze, or it just needs to freeze the enemies faster (1 seconnd) so you dont have to wait around for the detonate.

[Shinnyshin]

ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...

cryoblast needs to take effect faster, it either has to be instant like snap freeze, or it just needs to freeze the enemies faster (1 seconnd) so you dont have to wait around for the detonate.

Agreed on this point, actually.  I think it's not the issue many people want to address (Cryo's lack of explosions on armored targets), but the ability to prime trash in less than the travel time of Incinerate would be nice.

[Fortack]

Shinnyshin wrote...

So that means she's least advantaged against Marauders/Hunters/Rocket Troopers/Captains/Centurions.  Given my particular playstyle, I have no problems with most of these units though I'm probably slightly worse against Dragoon types and Hunters, so I can't really comment on that.

Hit those dudes with Cryo Blast. It will stagger them or else force them to do their dodge thing. Either way you just bought enough time to line up a nice headshot or in case you're using the Claymore enough time to reload when they travel in packs or you missed a shot (and you can use CB between every shot b/c of its quick cooldown).

[Shinnyshin]

Fortack wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

So that means she's least advantaged against Marauders/Hunters/Rocket Troopers/Captains/Centurions.  Given my particular playstyle, I have no problems with most of these units though I'm probably slightly worse against Dragoon types and Hunters, so I can't really comment on that.

Hit those dudes with Cryo Blast. It will stagger them or else force them to do their dodge thing. Either way you just bought enough time to line up a nice headshot or in case you're using the Claymore enough time to reload when they travel in packs or you missed a shot (and you can use CB between every shot b/c of its quick cooldown).

Yup, I think she does pretty well against them.  But is least advantaged against them, if that makes sense.  That is to say she can handle them just fine compared to everyone else, whereas she handles other enemy types exceptionally well compared to everyone well.  She can do it easily, but it plays to her strengths less than annihilating the other enemy types.

Basically, I was saying those enemies are her worst case scenario and that even they aren't bad, as evidence that she can handle most enemies very well.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 janvier 2013 - 06:32 .

[Flambrose]

Writing all of this up, I decided perhaps I haven't been playing to FQE's strengths enough. I took that cruddy CSMGV off of her and got rid of the Acolyte, and I did pretty well with Talon X. Phantoms are definitely her worst nightmare.. I didn't notice I was hosting before going into a Cerberus game, and dat DR they get is just yr08932yrh0983q2yrh089. This is why I value GE with GPS so much. I make an effort to hunt every single Phantom on the map with him.

If you ask me, more than letting cryo blast prime armor, she would be amazing if Cryo Blast was simply given the ability to detonate. It would also be less annoying than the screenshake mess that is cryo explosion spam. Letting CB prime CEs on armor wouldn't be out of the question though. They do no extra damage to anything, and are only boosted by CB's debuff as opposed to SF's 10% debuff and doubled damage.

I think I'll place her on par with the GE now. I still feel I could be doing better with MQE against all factions, but I'll let BioWare's quarian sexism slide for now. Perhaps I just wanted her to be better than average-ish.

[Deerber]

Flambrose wrote...

Writing all of this up, I decided perhaps I haven't been playing to FQE's strengths enough. I took that cruddy CSMGV off of her and got rid of the Acolyte, and I did pretty well with Talon X. Phantoms are definitely her worst nightmare.. I didn't notice I was hosting before going into a Cerberus game, and dat DR they get is just yr08932yrh0983q2yrh089. This is why I value GE with GPS so much. I make an effort to hunt every single Phantom on the map with him.

If you ask me, more than letting cryo blast prime armor, she would be amazing if Cryo Blast was simply given the ability to detonate. It would also be less annoying than the screenshake mess that is cryo explosion spam. Letting CB prime CEs on armor wouldn't be out of the question though. They do no extra damage to anything, and are only boosted by CB's debuff as opposed to SF's 10% debuff and doubled damage.

I think I'll place her on par with the GE now. I still feel I could be doing better with MQE against all factions, but I'll let BioWare's quarian sexism slide for now. Perhaps I just wanted her to be better than average-ish.

MQE is simply the best engineer, hands down. Things melt in front of him 

Anyway yeah, I wouldn't reccoment to play her on host against Cerberus... Unless you bring a scorpion with you, hehe. Otherwise you're stuck with throwing a cryo blast at the ****, make her put the bubble up, and then run like ****. But note that that is not due to the FQE being bad, it's due to Phantoms being broken on host, proably due to a bug. Loads of other characters have exactly the same issue. And if you don't host, you can deal with them just fine. Although big packs of them are always a primary threat.

[Zjarcal]

Flambrose wrote...

I think I'll place her on par with the GE now. I still feel I could be doing better with MQE against all factions, but I'll let BioWare's quarian sexism slide for now. Perhaps I just wanted her to be better than average-ish.

MQE is boring to play and has no sexy bum bum, therefore he is inferior. 

[LemurFromTheId]

Flambrose wrote...

Writing all of this up, I decided perhaps I haven't been playing to FQE's strengths enough. I took that cruddy CSMGV off of her and got rid of the Acolyte, and I did pretty well with Talon X. Phantoms are definitely her worst nightmare.. I didn't notice I was hosting before going into a Cerberus game, and dat DR they get is just yr08932yrh0983q2yrh089. This is why I value GE with GPS so much. I make an effort to hunt every single Phantom on the map with him.

If you like GPS, you might want to try it on FQE. It's not a bad combo at all.

[GriM_AoD]

She luurves using dat PPR/Arc combo.
Most don't expect soo much death from such a pretty little package.

Edit - She's a really versatile class.

Modifié par GriM_AoD, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:42 .

[HolyAvenger]

Talon is a good weapon on her too, though the Acolyte is great if paired with a high DPS gun as well.

Good to hear you're coming to appreciate her strengths more. MQE is just about the best engineer (great debuff, great grenades, great techsplosions) so its hard to shine next to him.