159 réponses à ce sujet

[daaaav]

Yeah, I'm getting on the remove this and that band wagon...

Please just remove them. How can you generate and balance a robust, enjoyabe and tactical combat system when hooking up to a health pot drip is always a viable fallback position?

This would mean:

- reducing the importance of all healing (dare say a fair few folk are tired of tank heal and spank encounters)
- buffing CC abilities
- Figuring out interesting ways for powerful enemies to have challenge rather than buffing their resistance and hit points...

Remember the sacred ashes trailer? that's what combat should be like!



(Update) For example, take a typical boss tanking senario.

Senario 1: one tank, one healer

Standard setup where tank tanks boss and healer heals tank. The tank can contribute some DPS and the Healer can buff / support. The point is that these two characters keep the boss busy.

Senario 2: one tank, one rogue

Tank activates ability "back to back" on the rogue. The two characters fight as a cohesive unit and can combine their defense stats and abilities in order to survive. Restriction that they cannot be more than a few meters from each other. The tank can still contribute some DPS and the rogue can support / dps but the point is that again, these two characters can keep the boss busy.






Alot of folk commenting that "all RPG's must have health potions" and "It's just the way it's done", could you please elaborate on why you enjoy this mechanic if this is your position?

Modifié par daaaav, 09 octobre 2012 - 10:48 .

[Wolfspawn]

Well, maybe a potion limit (like The Witcher's toxicity bar) would be a good compromise.
Sorry, but potions are needed in RPG's. All RPG's have them, even if you can't drink them during battle. I don't think Bioware would get rid of them. I'm not saying I want them to allow you to spam potions or get rid of them entirely, but a limit via Stamina could work.

Modifié par bob_20000, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:51 .

[Biotic Sage]

Well there are quite a few ways to remove dependency on potions. Here are a few:

- Options present in skills or items for life leech/steal
- Direct healing skills or indirect healing skills such as reduce damage buffs
- Options in passive skills or items for increased innate life regen during battle

The main concept is there should be plenty of OPTIONS for the player to mix and match or focus on in order to allow for more playstyles.

[BanksHector]

I am completely against doing that. If you do not like using them, you have the ability to just play your game without using them if you want to. Since this is something I figure not many people would want and it is something you could do yourself without them changing anything, I do not see them doing it.

If they wanted to improve the healing tree and give me more then 1 option for a healer, I would not mind this idea as much. In DA2 I do not care all that much for Anders and if they was removed I would of had to keep him in my party so he could heal.

[MillKill]

I'm fine with DA2's system of just giving long cooldowns on potions. It meant that you could heal if you didn't bring a healer or your healer was down, but you couldn't rely on it too much. It was better than the poultrice spam that Origins turned into at high levels.

[daaaav]

BanksHector wrote...

I am completely against doing that. If you do not like using them, you have the ability to just play your game without using them if you want to. Since this is something I figure not many people would want and it is something you could do yourself without them changing anything, I do not see them doing it.

If they wanted to improve the healing tree and give me more then 1 option for a healer, I would not mind this idea as much. In DA2 I do not care all that much for Anders and if they was removed I would of had to keep him in my party so he could heal.

Fair enough, but why are you against doing that? On it's own, maintaining the status quo is not a good enough reason...

Why bother developing strategies and synergies between unusual party combinations if it can all be trivialised with health potion spam?

I know that you can have some success in DAO and DA@ without a healer or health potions, but I believe that it would be MORE enjoyable if the combat was designed with this in mind.

[Emzamination]

I'm surprised that this thread exist tbh... As for my thoughts on the matter-- I'm strongly against this, it just isn't done.

Modifié par Emzamination, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:08 .

[Thrillian]

I am not for abolishing them completely as I am also one who did not like taking Anders everywhere with me. Sometimes I like to take companions that I enjoy as opposed to companions that I might need when I play. This means that I may need to rely heavily on health potions.

Modifié par Thrillho_82, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:08 .

[daaaav]

bob_20000 wrote...

Well, maybe a potion limit (like The Witcher's toxicity bar) would be a good compromise.
Sorry, but potions are needed in RPG's. All RPG's have them, even if you can't drink them during battle.

Perhaps  I wasn't clear enough,

Aren't you tired of the standard RPG mechanics? From fighting weak mobs to powerful mobs that resist all your abilities so the ONLY way to beat them is through healing mechanics?

I would like a system where literally every party combination is viable in a way that satisfies the player that they are not cheating through using consumables...

[BanksHector]

daaaav wrote...

BanksHector wrote...

I am completely against doing that. If you do not like using them, you have the ability to just play your game without using them if you want to. Since this is something I figure not many people would want and it is something you could do yourself without them changing anything, I do not see them doing it.

If they wanted to improve the healing tree and give me more then 1 option for a healer, I would not mind this idea as much. In DA2 I do not care all that much for Anders and if they was removed I would of had to keep him in my party so he could heal.

Fair enough, but why are you against doing that? On it's own, maintaining the status quo is not a good enough reason...

Why bother developing strategies and synergies between unusual party combinations if it can all be trivialised with health potion spam?

I know that you can have some success in DAO and DA@ without a healer or health potions, but I believe that it would be MORE enjoyable if the combat was designed with this in mind.

Mainly I am against this because it will force me to have a healer in the party. I do think it might make the combat more enjoyable if done right. Basically I do not want to be forced to have someone like Anders(DA2) in my party at all times  I guess my reason is not really all that good of one to why I am against it.

[daaaav]

Emzamination wrote...

I'm surprised that this thread exist tbh... As for my thoughts on the matter-- I'm strongly against this, it just isn't done.

Why are you against this? Or why are you for the current system?

[daaaav]

BanksHector wrote...

daaaav wrote...

BanksHector wrote...

I am completely against doing that. If you do not like using them, you have the ability to just play your game without using them if you want to. Since this is something I figure not many people would want and it is something you could do yourself without them changing anything, I do not see them doing it.

If they wanted to improve the healing tree and give me more then 1 option for a healer, I would not mind this idea as much. In DA2 I do not care all that much for Anders and if they was removed I would of had to keep him in my party so he could heal.

Fair enough, but why are you against doing that? On it's own, maintaining the status quo is not a good enough reason...

Why bother developing strategies and synergies between unusual party combinations if it can all be trivialised with health potion spam?

I know that you can have some success in DAO and DA@ without a healer or health potions, but I believe that it would be MORE enjoyable if the combat was designed with this in mind.

Mainly I am against this because it will force me to have a healer in the party. I do think it might make the combat more enjoyable if done right. Basically I do not want to be forced to have someone like Anders(DA2) in my party at all times  I guess my reason is not really all that good of one to why I am against it.

Yes! I agree with you. I want to remove the dependancy on either having a healer in the group or spamming health potions. I want to make the strenghts that other classes have EQUAL to a healer.

[KiwiQuiche]

Nope, I'm fine with how it is, esspecially with the cool-down.

[Sable Rhapsody]

daaaav wrote...
Yes! I agree with you. I want to remove the dependancy on either having a healer in the group or spamming health potions. I want to make the strenghts that other classes have EQUAL to a healer.

Why not just have every class able to heal themselves to some extent, perhaps a moderate heal with a cooldown long enough to be used once per fight?  Then there isn't one character who has to fill that role, and then it becomes a matter of managing each individual person's strengths, weaknesses, and health.

[Thrillian]

daaaav wrote...

BanksHector wrote...

daaaav wrote...

BanksHector wrote...

I am completely against doing that. If you do not like using them, you have the ability to just play your game without using them if you want to. Since this is something I figure not many people would want and it is something you could do yourself without them changing anything, I do not see them doing it.

If they wanted to improve the healing tree and give me more then 1 option for a healer, I would not mind this idea as much. In DA2 I do not care all that much for Anders and if they was removed I would of had to keep him in my party so he could heal.

Fair enough, but why are you against doing that? On it's own, maintaining the status quo is not a good enough reason...

Why bother developing strategies and synergies between unusual party combinations if it can all be trivialised with health potion spam?

I know that you can have some success in DAO and DA@ without a healer or health potions, but I believe that it would be MORE enjoyable if the combat was designed with this in mind.

Mainly I am against this because it will force me to have a healer in the party. I do think it might make the combat more enjoyable if done right. Basically I do not want to be forced to have someone like Anders(DA2) in my party at all times  I guess my reason is not really all that good of one to why I am against it.

Yes! I agree with you. I want to remove the dependancy on either having a healer in the group or spamming health potions. I want to make the strenghts that other classes have EQUAL to a healer.

Then the problem becomes "Why have any specializations at all?" You are pretty much asking for anyone to be able to do anything at this point. Why have a rogue if everyone can lockipick and backstab? Why have a mage if everyone can heal? Why have a warrior if everyone can tank? Why have anyone else there at all?

[Emzamination]

daaaav wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I'm surprised that this thread exist tbh... As for my thoughts on the matter-- I'm strongly against this, it just isn't done.

Why are you against this? Or why are you for the current system?

Removing health pots would force the pc to spec themselves or a mage companion as healer regardless of the players personal preference, effectively stripping choice.Also in the case of the latter the player would then be forced to take said companion everywhere, severely hindering party/cinematic banter and possible party specific scenerio actions.The gold that's spent on potions balances the system by giving them value as a resource which negates any feelings of cheating.

Modifié par Emzamination, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:27 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Doesn't Reaver have an upgrade where you get health with each enemy you kill? Or is that just an increase in speed? Can't remember.

[Kidd]

I think DA2 solved this very well. By limiting healing as much as it did, the game was not balanced on the idea that you could heal at any time. Healing was a very strong tool, yet it was not the be-all end-all tool of importance the way it is in DAO and most MMOs.

You can play DA2 and barely chug potions as long as you utilise your party well. Leads to more possible party make ups etc. To me, this was a holy cow DA2 already gave a strong shove and I'm all for pushing holy cows around. But I don't see the point of removing health poultices completely.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:34 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Thrillho_82 wrote...
Then the problem becomes "Why have any specializations at all?" You are pretty much asking for anyone to be able to do anything at this point. Why have a rogue if everyone can lockipick and backstab? Why have a mage if everyone can heal? Why have a warrior if everyone can tank? Why have anyone else there at all?

I think that's an overstatement of what the OP wanted.  OP wanted a system in which you weren't dependent on one particular character or mechanic to get through fights.  There are strictly two ways of healing in DA2: magic and potions.  Potions have long cooldowns.  Unless you're gonna play a mage PC with healing, your only choice for healer is Anders, and that's understandably frustrating.

That doesn't mean you don't have roles or specializations.  Warriors still wade in close and lay a smackdown, rogues are still stabby and nasty, mages still light people on fire.  

[Direwolf0294]

In DA:O you were forced to bring a healer companion. In DA2 you just ended up running around kiting the enemy while waiting for the cooldown on potions to expire. Neither situation was particularly fun or challenging. If DA3 could change that either by having less of a dependency on healing or making healing more interesting then I'm all for it.

[Bfler]

MillKill wrote...
 It was better than the poultrice spam that Origins turned into at high levels.

Origins also has cooldown on potions. If you use a certain type of potion, it takes a moment until you can use it again.


And potions are a part of RPG games. You can make them rare are or raise the price, but don't remove them. 
In a few games you can find these silly health orbs, but I personally don't like them.

[daaaav]

Thrillho_82 wrote...


Then the problem becomes "Why have any specializations at all?" You are pretty much asking for anyone to be able to do anything at this point. Why have a rogue if everyone can lockipick and backstab? Why have a mage if everyone can heal? Why have a warrior if everyone can tank? Why have anyone else there at all?

That isn't what I said.

I don't want every class to be able to heal. I don't want every class to be able do everything.

What I do want is the possibility that a COMBINATION of class abilities can replace the need for a healer. If you want to bring a healer, then bring a healer. If you want to bring a DPS / CC mage, a rogue and two warriors you can do that as well.

[daaaav]

Emzamination wrote...

Removing health pots would force the pc to spec themselves or a mage companion as healer regardless of the players personal preference, effectively stripping choice.Also in the case of the latter the player would then be forced to take said companion everywhere, severely hindering party/cinematic banter and possible party specific scenerio actions.The gold that's spent on potions balances the system by giving them value as a resource which negates any feelings of cheating.

I saying we should remove the dependancy on health pots AND healers.

Modifié par daaaav, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:41 .

[Biotic Sage]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I think DA2 solved this very well. By limiting healing as much as it did, the game was not balanced on the idea that you could heal at any time. Healing was a very strong tool, yet it was not the be-all end-all tool of importance the way it is in DAO and most MMOs.

You can play DA2 and barely chug potions as long as you utilise your party well. Leads to more possible party make ups etc. To me, this was a holy cow DA2 already gave a strong shove and I'm all for pushing holy cows around. But I don't see the point of removing health poultices completely.

The DA2 system was designed very well.  However, when we played the game it sucked big time because Anders was the only healer.  No one else could even come close to filling this role, so I was stuck with annoying Anders in my party all the time because I can't ignore combat efficiency.


Lack of customization options for followers was the issue here, but the actual DA2 system was good.

[Emzamination]

daaaav wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Removing health pots would force the pc to spec themselves or a mage companion as healer regardless of the players personal preference, effectively stripping choice.Also in the case of the latter the player would then be forced to take said companion everywhere, severely hindering party/cinematic banter and possible party specific scenerio actions.The gold that's spent on potions balances the system by giving them value as a resource which negates any feelings of cheating.

I saying we should remove the dependancy on health pots AND healers.

And you expect tanks to counteract enemy Dps how exactly?