159 réponses à ce sujet

[daaaav]

DA2 was a step in the right direction, but running around pillars waiting for healthpot cooldowns is not fun. I would like them to build on that though.

Can someone please enlighten me as to why health potions deserve a place as an engaging and fun gameplay mechanic...

[Biotic Sage]

daaaav wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Removing health pots would force the pc to spec themselves or a mage companion as healer regardless of the players personal preference, effectively stripping choice.Also in the case of the latter the player would then be forced to take said companion everywhere, severely hindering party/cinematic banter and possible party specific scenerio actions.The gold that's spent on potions balances the system by giving them value as a resource which negates any feelings of cheating.

I saying we should remove the dependancy on health pots AND healers.

Oh...well in that case I think you're playing the wrong type of games.  There's always going to be healing options when you play an RPG that utilizes health bars.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Emzamination wrote...
And you expect tanks to counteract enemy Dps how exactly?

Damage mitigation abilities like Barrier or Fortification in Mass Effect.  Regeneration abilities that kick in when the character is at 1/2 or less health.  Stuns and CCs that afflict low fortitude characters (usually damage-dealers like mages or rogues) more harshly.  Perhaps a moderate HP self-heal that also adds a defensive buff if things get nasty.  There's way more ways to deal with incoming damage than just healing it better.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:46 .

[daaaav]

Emzamination wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Removing health pots would force the pc to spec themselves or a mage companion as healer regardless of the players personal preference, effectively stripping choice.Also in the case of the latter the player would then be forced to take said companion everywhere, severely hindering party/cinematic banter and possible party specific scenerio actions.The gold that's spent on potions balances the system by giving them value as a resource which negates any feelings of cheating.

I saying we should remove the dependancy on health pots AND healers.

And you expect tanks to counteract enemy Dps how exactly?

By being tanks? Perhaps have a talent that enables them to evade all damage and maintain threat for a limited time but at the cost of not being able to do damage?

Perhaps have enemies that do not resist every classes most interesting talents as the ONLY means of increasing challenge?

There are other possibilities for combat mechanics other than tank dps heal...

[daaaav]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Oh...well in that case I think you're playing the wrong type of games.  There's always going to be healing options when you play an RPG that utilizes health bars.

Sorry I should have been clearer.

I do not want to REMOVE healing only the dependance on either having a healer or using consumables.

It's fine if you believe that this is an unwritten law of RPG's ingrained in the very fabric of the cosmos, I would like something fresh, however.

[Emzamination]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
And you expect tanks to counteract enemy Dps how exactly?

Damage mitigation abilities like Barrier or Fortification in Mass Effect.  Regeneration abilities that kick in when the character is at 1/2 or less health.  Stuns and CCs that afflict low fortitude characters (usually damage-dealers like mages or rogues) more harshly.  Perhaps a moderate HP self-heal that also adds a defensive buff if things get nasty.  There's way more ways to deal with incoming damage than just healing it better.

The highlighted sounds like hand holding.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Emzamination wrote...

The highlighted sounds like hand holding.

Because...why exactly?  If mages and potions can't heal than no one can? 

Guild Wars did it, getting rid of a dedicated healing class in favor of everyone being responsible for their own goddamn health.  It seems to work ok.

daaaav wrote...
Can someone please enlighten me as to why health potions deserve a place as an engaging and fun gameplay mechanic...

For the same reason that inventory management does--it's been in RPGs so long now that it's taken on sacred cow status. Fun is a secondary concern, it would seem.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 octobre 2012 - 08:56 .

[daaaav]

Emzamination wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
And you expect tanks to counteract enemy Dps how exactly?

Damage mitigation abilities like Barrier or Fortification in Mass Effect.  Regeneration abilities that kick in when the character is at 1/2 or less health.  Stuns and CCs that afflict low fortitude characters (usually damage-dealers like mages or rogues) more harshly.  Perhaps a moderate HP self-heal that also adds a defensive buff if things get nasty.  There's way more ways to deal with incoming damage than just healing it better.

The highlighted sounds like hand holding.

An on demand health pot drip isn't hand holding? To blitz DA2 all you need is either Anders, PC as healer, or the patience to run around columns for health pot CD's.

It's the easy way out and I'll bet that Bioware can come up with something better.

[Biotic Sage]

daaaav wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Oh...well in that case I think you're playing the wrong type of games.  There's always going to be healing options when you play an RPG that utilizes health bars.

Sorry I should have been clearer.

I do not want to REMOVE healing only the dependance on either having a healer or using consumables.

It's fine if you believe that this is an unwritten law of RPG's ingrained in the very fabric of the cosmos, I would like something fresh, however.

I don't believe it's an unwritten law of RPGs.  I do believe it's a written law of RPGs that utilize health bars.

As for reducing dependence, DA2 did this very well.  It got rid of potion spam with the cooldown.  I applaude the cooldown, it was a good move.  This gives healing a tactical place in the flow of the fight, there is a cost to using it besides the superficial "cost" of using one of your hundreds of potions you've saved up.  And like I said in my other post, if you implement more indirect healing options like passive health regen, damage mitigation skills/items, and life steal options, then that is reducing the dependancy, is it not?

[Thrillian]

daaaav wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...


Then the problem becomes "Why have any specializations at all?" You are pretty much asking for anyone to be able to do anything at this point. Why have a rogue if everyone can lockipick and backstab? Why have a mage if everyone can heal? Why have a warrior if everyone can tank? Why have anyone else there at all?

That isn't what I said.

I don't want every class to be able to heal. I don't want every class to be able do everything.

What I do want is the possibility that a COMBINATION of class abilities can replace the need for a healer. If you want to bring a healer, then bring a healer. If you want to bring a DPS / CC mage, a rogue and two warriors you can do that as well.

Ok I understand that as well but then why have healers at all? The point is that everyone likes to play with a different set of companions. If I want to play with 2 tanks and 2 rogues, the healing potions are there to get me through the tough times. The healing potions are there so that everyone, no matter the companion combination, has a chance of continueing the game.  I really don't think that what you are proposing is possible as a game mechanic as the DA universe stands.

[Emzamination]

daaaav wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Removing health pots would force the pc to spec themselves or a mage companion as healer regardless of the players personal preference, effectively stripping choice.Also in the case of the latter the player would then be forced to take said companion everywhere, severely hindering party/cinematic banter and possible party specific scenerio actions.The gold that's spent on potions balances the system by giving them value as a resource which negates any feelings of cheating.

I saying we should remove the dependancy on health pots AND healers.

And you expect tanks to counteract enemy Dps how exactly?

By being tanks? Perhaps have a talent that enables them to evade all damage and maintain threat for a limited time but at the cost of not being able to do damage?

Perhaps have enemies that do not resist every classes most interesting talents as the ONLY means of increasing challenge?

There are other possibilities for combat mechanics other than tank dps heal...

No sorry, that's just cheating.Tanks don't need to do direct damage to hold threat, that's what Dps party members are for.You're basically asking for the tank to do it's job and be invulnerable at the same time.I'm not a fan of easy.

Enemy resistances force the player to plan and utilize the tactics system more efficently.Removing resistances would take away from the game, not add to it.

[daaaav]

Biotic Sage wrote...

I don't believe it's an unwritten law of RPGs.  I do believe it's a written law of RPGs that utilize health bars.

As for reducing dependence, DA2 did this very well.  It got rid of potion spam with the cooldown.  I applaude the cooldown, it was a good move.  This gives healing a tactical place in the flow of the fight, there is a cost to using it besides the superficial "cost" of using one of your hundreds of potions you've saved up.  And like I said in my other post, if you implement more indirect healing options like passive health regen, damage mitigation skills/items, and life steal options, then that is reducing the dependancy, is it not?

Yes, but don't limit yourself to adding additional healing abilities... Healing requirements can be replaced with OTHER mechanics. More CC from rogues and mages, use of the environment and more situational mitigation from tanks to name but a few.

[Biotic Sage]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...


Then the problem becomes "Why have any specializations at all?" You are pretty much asking for anyone to be able to do anything at this point. Why have a rogue if everyone can lockipick and backstab? Why have a mage if everyone can heal? Why have a warrior if everyone can tank? Why have anyone else there at all?

That isn't what I said.

I don't want every class to be able to heal. I don't want every class to be able do everything.

What I do want is the possibility that a COMBINATION of class abilities can replace the need for a healer. If you want to bring a healer, then bring a healer. If you want to bring a DPS / CC mage, a rogue and two warriors you can do that as well.

Ok I understand that as well but then why have healers at all? The point is that everyone likes to play with a different set of companions. If I want to play with 2 tanks and 2 rogues, the healing potions are there to get me through the tough times. The healing potions are there so that everyone, no matter the companion combination, has a chance of continueing the game.  I really don't think that what you are proposing is possible as a game mechanic as the DA universe stands.

It's possible if you stack your squad's cumulitive DPS high enough to finish off enemies before they finish you off.  Or if you stack your squad's cumulitive damage-taking-potential high enough.  And you can do this in DA2 and DA:O by the way, IDK about on nightmare difficulty though...

[fchopin]

What would be the point of a mage healer if they remove the dependency on healing?

[Sable Rhapsody]

Emzamination wrote...
No sorry, that's just cheating.Tanks don't need to do direct damage to hold threat, that's what Dps party members are for.You're basically asking for the tank to do it's job and be invulnerable at the same time.I'm not a fan of easy.

Enemy resistances force the player to plan and utilize the tactics system more efficently.Removing resistances would take away from the game, not add to it.

You have a very narrow definition of what each class should be able to do, and that's fine if that's how you want to play your game.  Last time I checked, player choice =/= cheating.

And besides, you're assuming alternate suggestions for how to manage health would take place in the current combat structure of DA.  Changing something like health management might very well change a lot of other mechanics.  There's no way to know at that point what would make the DA3 easier or harder without playing it.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:05 .

[Biotic Sage]

Another thing about this topic: why single out healing/healers? Couldn't you by the same token call for the removal of DPS dependancy? Then we could have the same discussion: yes of course you could build your party without any high DPS characters, but it just wouldn't be as efficient. The whole system is built on DPS/Healer/Tank/Crowd Control. Asking if we can remove healers is like asking could we remove rooks from chess.

More OPTIONS for cross class role fulfillment and increased customization is an entirely different matter though.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:05 .

[Emzamination]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The highlighted sounds like hand holding.

Because...why exactly?  If mages and potions can't heal than no one can? 

Guild Wars did it, getting rid of a dedicated healing class in favor of everyone being responsible for their own goddamn health.  It seems to work ok.

It diminishes the player survival element as there is no actual cost.Potions are given worth as a resource via gold and healers are given worth as resource Via mana potions which also cost gold.Regenerative abilities and hp steals... Fan service.

[daaaav]

Emzamination wrote...

No sorry, that's just cheating.Tanks don't need to do direct damage to hold threat, that's what Dps party members are for.You're basically asking for the tank to do it's job and be invulnerable at the same time.I'm not a fan of easy.

Enemy resistances force the player to plan and utilize the tactics system more efficently.Removing resistances would take away from the game, not add to it.

Completely disagree.

I made the ability I mentioned up on the spot... It's not perfect by any means.

It's not easy mode if it only lasts for, i don't know, 20 seconds. During this time the tank does no damage so it's not OP. During this 20 seconds,  the other classes can use their abilities to down the mob. Meaning, that a team WITHOUT a healer can be effective.

Enemy resistances force players to use nothing but the auto attack and healing spells. Not exactly advanced tactics... 

[daaaav]

fchopin wrote...

What would be the point of a mage healer if they remove the dependency on healing?

Exactly the same point as before... except that now you wouldn't HAVE to bring him every single time. This isn't as much about nerfing healers as buffing CC and tanking abilities.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Emzamination wrote...

It diminishes the player survival element as there is no actual cost.Potions are given worth as a resource via gold and healers are given worth as resource Via mana potions which also cost gold.Regenerative abilities and hp steals... Fan service.

What if those abilities have long cooldowns?  Or can only be used when not attacking?  Or have high stamina costs?  It's the same principle as the long-cooldown health potions.  Just because it doesn't cost gold doesn't mean it's for free.  Every ability has an opportunity cost in combat.

IMO dedicated healers diminish the player survival element worse than giving everyone a costly in-combat heal or two.  As long as your healer's up and running, you know you're good, and the in-game AI is too stupid to preferentially target the weak point, your healer.  Not exactly varied gameplay.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:09 .

[Emzamination]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
No sorry, that's just cheating.Tanks don't need to do direct damage to hold threat, that's what Dps party members are for.You're basically asking for the tank to do it's job and be invulnerable at the same time.I'm not a fan of easy.

Enemy resistances force the player to plan and utilize the tactics system more efficently.Removing resistances would take away from the game, not add to it.

You have a very narrow definition of what each class should be able to do, and that's fine if that's how you want to play your game.  The OP merely wanted the option to build characters outside those stereotypical MMO paradigms.  Last time I checked, player choice =/= cheating.

*scratches head*

[daaaav]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

Ok I understand that as well but then why have healers at all? The point is that everyone likes to play with a different set of companions. If I want to play with 2 tanks and 2 rogues, the healing potions are there to get me through the tough times. The healing potions are there so that everyone, no matter the companion combination, has a chance of continueing the game.  I really don't think that what you are proposing is possible as a game mechanic as the DA universe stands.

Yes, everyone does like to play with a different set of characters. As it stands, unless you're freakishly min /maxing or are a gaming god, you're forced to bring Anders or spec yourself healing in DA2. I'm saying that you should be able to bring 2 rogues and 2 warriors and beat the game WITHOUT healing potions. The same way you can with a healer.

Healers can have other abilities aside from healing. They can have DPS and CC skills as well.

[Wulfram]

I think the DA2 health potions worked fine.

Though I wouldn't mind if they stopped pretending they were a limited resource and restricted them only by cooldown.

[Emzamination]

daaaav wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No sorry, that's just cheating.Tanks don't need to do direct damage to hold threat, that's what Dps party members are for.You're basically asking for the tank to do it's job and be invulnerable at the same time.I'm not a fan of easy.

Enemy resistances force the player to plan and utilize the tactics system more efficently.Removing resistances would take away from the game, not add to it.

Completely disagree.

I made the ability I mentioned up on the spot... It's not perfect by any means.

It's not easy mode if it only lasts for, i don't know, 20 seconds. During this time the tank does no damage so it's not OP. During this 20 seconds,  the other classes can use their abilities to down the mob. Meaning, that a team WITHOUT a healer can be effective.

Enemy resistances force players to use nothing but the auto attack and healing spells. Not exactly advanced tactics... 

I'd love to argue how inefficent that would be, but I did have plans to complete Mota and legacy an hour ago -- 360 on and everything so I'll get to that and hope someone else to take the reins against your anti-pot argument.

Modifié par Emzamination, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:17 .

[Thrillian]

daaaav wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

Ok I understand that as well but then why have healers at all? The point is that everyone likes to play with a different set of companions. If I want to play with 2 tanks and 2 rogues, the healing potions are there to get me through the tough times. The healing potions are there so that everyone, no matter the companion combination, has a chance of continueing the game.  I really don't think that what you are proposing is possible as a game mechanic as the DA universe stands.

Yes, everyone does like to play with a different set of characters. As it stands, unless you're freakishly min /maxing or are a gaming god, you're forced to bring Anders or spec yourself healing in DA2. I'm saying that you should be able to bring 2 rogues and 2 warriors and beat the game WITHOUT healing potions. The same way you can with a healer.

Healers can have other abilities aside from healing. They can have DPS and CC skills as well.

But as I understand it, the entire point of healing potions is so that any given player is not forced to bring a healer along with them.  If you can give an example where this may not be the case that would be great.  I understand that you want to be able to beat the game without a healer but I thought that that was the advantage the healing potions were meant to give.  I guess i just don't understand why you have a problem with potions as an alternative to mages for healing.