159 réponses à ce sujet

[daaaav]

Essentially what I want to do is replace health potions with class abiltiies. These do not have to be healing abilities!.They can be mitigation, CC, Vanishes, DPS whatever! There must be a more interesting way of doing this than friggen health pots.

Modifié par daaaav, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:19 .

[Kidd]

Wulfram wrote...

I think the DA2 health potions worked fine.

Though I wouldn't mind if they stopped pretending they were a limited resource and restricted them only by cooldown.

So much this, really.

[Sable Rhapsody]

daaaav wrote...


Essentially what I want to do is replace health potions with class abiltiies. These do not have to be healing abilities!.They can be mitigation, CC, Vanishes, DPS whatever! There must be a more interesting way of doing this than friggen health pots.

I agree, but I think there still needs to be healing in SOME form, even if it's only a once-per-fight emergency ability that varies from class to class.  No amount of mitigation is going to bring back a character who's already dead or save a party extremely low on health from defeat.  
 

[daaaav]

[/quote]

But as I understand it, the entire point of healing potions is so that any given player is not forced to bring a healer along with them.  If you can give an example where this may not be the case that would be great.  I understand that you want to be able to beat the game without a healer but I thought that that was the advantage the healing potions were meant to give.  I guess i just don't understand why you have a problem with potions as an alternative to mages for healing.

[/quote]

- Mass effect, Dark Souls and the Wtcher 2 both do no have health potion spam. They do have varied gameplay styles that ensure that health potions are not necessary.

- I have a problem with health pots because they are stale and boring and can be replaced with something more opriginal and engaging.

[daaaav]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

daaaav wrote...


Essentially what I want to do is replace health potions with class abiltiies. These do not have to be healing abilities!.They can be mitigation, CC, Vanishes, DPS whatever! There must be a more interesting way of doing this than friggen health pots.

I agree, but I think there still needs to be healing in SOME form, even if it's only a once-per-fight emergency ability that varies from class to class.  No amount of mitigation is going to bring back a character who's already dead or save a party extremely low on health from defeat.  
 

I don't think I've ever said that I want to replace healers entirely. A healer should be just as viable as another tank, DPS, CC class. Not an Iwin button.

[Thrillian]

daaaav wrote...


Essentially what I want to do is replace health potions with class abiltiies. These do not have to be healing abilities!.They can be mitigation, CC, Vanishes, DPS whatever! There must be a more interesting way of doing this than friggen health pots.

Ok.  I may be old but health pots have been the way for as long as I remember:P  Even so, I would love to hear an alternative.  Say that I like to play a rogue and of the companions available to me. I have a tank, tank, and another rogue. How would you implement health regeneration in that scenario?

[fchopin]

daaaav wrote...

fchopin wrote...

What would be the point of a mage healer if they remove the dependency on healing?

Exactly the same point as before... except that now you wouldn't HAVE to bring him every single time. This isn't as much about nerfing healers as buffing CC and tanking abilities.

In DA2 you don’t need a healer to play the game as after your sister is taken out of the game if you don’t like Anders then you have no healer in your team.

[Sable Rhapsody]

daaaav wrote...
I don't think I've ever said that I want to replace healers entirely. A healer should be just as viable as another tank, DPS, CC class. Not an Iwin button.

I didn't mean to imply that you wanted to replace healers.  I meant there should always be some way to heal.  Sorry if it wasn't clear.

Part of the fun in fights is turning them around from the brink, and IMO you need some form of hit point recovery to do that.  Maybe not necessarily a healer or health potions, though.

I hesitate to suggest the Diablo-style health globes.  I have a feeling that would get me flamed off the forum.

[daaaav]

fchopin wrote...


In DA2 you don’t need a healer to play the game as after your sister is taken out of the game if you don’t like Anders then you have no healer in your team.

If you went the whole game without Anders or your character specced as a healer then I salute you sir. I don't remember it being that easy though, and I'll wager that it would be a more enjoyable experienced if Bioware deisgned the combat system with non healing parties in mind.

[deatharmonic]

I disagree. I think the focus should be on changing enemies. I can see why you would focus on health potions and magic when we had fights like the 1v1 with the Arishok. The only way to beat him was to basically outlast him, it was like a war of attrition and that should be a perfect example to Bioware of how not to implement combat, that was lazy and unimaginative imho. Now, if you remove dependency on healing potions you would still have to employ the same tactics in a fight like that. The only difference being you would now be reliant on the new mechanic in order to outlast the boss. Bosses (like the Arishok) would still have their ridiculously high health stats etc, so I say change that rather than the potion/magic system. Give them weak spots we have to find or unique susceptibilities or certain things available in the environment to use.

I digress, I believe the problem stems from high level enemies merely having their stats boosted which leads to the player having to outlast them in battle via the use of potions/magic healing. Changing the enemies would mean you won't have to rely on health spamming etc.

Modifié par deatharmonic, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:43 .

[daaaav]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

daaaav wrote...
I don't think I've ever said that I want to replace healers entirely. A healer should be just as viable as another tank, DPS, CC class. Not an Iwin button.

I didn't mean to imply that you wanted to replace healers.  I meant there should always be some way to heal.  Sorry if it wasn't clear.

Part of the fun in fights is turning them around from the brink, and IMO you need some form of hit point recovery to do that.  Maybe not necessarily a healer or health potions, though.

I hesitate to suggest the Diablo-style health globes.  I have a feeling that would get me flamed off the forum.

Agreed!

There are many creative ways that health pots can be replaced and non healer teams made viable. I'm not sure that Diablo health orbs are one of them .

The basics are already there. In DAO there was the force field spell, last stand abilities in DA2 and rogue abilties that increased evasion. Survivability does not need to be entirely based on healing.

[daaaav]

deatharmonic wrote...

I disagree. I think the focus should be on changing enemies. I can see why you would focus on health potions and magic when we had fights like the 1v1 with the Arishok. The only way to beat him was to basically outlast him, it was like a war of attrition and that should be a perfect example to Bioware of how not to implement combat, that was lazy and unimaginative imho. Now, if you remove dependency on healing potions you would still have to employ the same tactics in a fight like that. The only difference being you would now be reliant on the new mechanic in order to outlast the boss. Bosses (like the Arishok) would still have their ridiculously high health stats etc, so I say change that rather than the potion/magic system. Give them weak spots we have to find or unique susceptibilities or certain things available in the environment to use.

I digress, I believe the problem stems from high level enemies merely having their stats boosted which leads to the player having to outlast them in battle via the use of potions/magic healing. Changing the enemies would mean you won't have to rely on health spamming etc.

I agree with you about the enemies. I don't understand why you want to keep health potions though... It seems to me that the two initiatives go hand in hand.

[Thrillian]

daaaav wrote...

fchopin wrote...


In DA2 you don’t need a healer to play the game as after your sister is taken out of the game if you don’t like Anders then you have no healer in your team.

If you went the whole game without Anders or your character specced as a healer then I salute you sir. I don't remember it being that easy though, and I'll wager that it would be a more enjoyable experienced if Bioware deisgned the combat system with non healing parties in mind.

While I may be letting nostalgia dictate how I feel about RPG's I would still like to hear your alternative to either mage or potion in regard to the Hit Point issue.  If you have an alternative, I would love to hear it.

[Sable Rhapsody]

daaaav wrote...
I'm not sure that Diablo health orbs are one of them

TBH it's serviceable.  But that's also a very different style of game.

Jade Empire dropped health, focus, or chi orbs from enemies based on combos performed.  That's a possibility, especially considering cross-class combo options in Dragon Age.  Not great for immersion, but neither is swinging around a sword as tall as you are like it's made of styrofoam.

Come to think of it, JE also didn't have health potions or dedicated healing.  You healed by expending chi, but it was also your resource for powers, extra damage, and magic.  Again, a different style of gameplay, but JE's combat was actually fun.  It's a thought.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:51 .

[deatharmonic]

daaaav wrote...

deatharmonic wrote...

I disagree. I think the focus should be on changing enemies. I can see why you would focus on health potions and magic when we had fights like the 1v1 with the Arishok. The only way to beat him was to basically outlast him, it was like a war of attrition and that should be a perfect example to Bioware of how not to implement combat, that was lazy and unimaginative imho. Now, if you remove dependency on healing potions you would still have to employ the same tactics in a fight like that. The only difference being you would now be reliant on the new mechanic in order to outlast the boss. Bosses (like the Arishok) would still have their ridiculously high health stats etc, so I say change that rather than the potion/magic system. Give them weak spots we have to find or unique susceptibilities or certain things available in the environment to use.

I digress, I believe the problem stems from high level enemies merely having their stats boosted which leads to the player having to outlast them in battle via the use of potions/magic healing. Changing the enemies would mean you won't have to rely on health spamming etc.

I agree with you about the enemies. I don't understand why you want to keep health potions though... It seems to me that the two initiatives go hand in hand.

Well what I stated addresses the enemies as the problem, not the health potions. So once the enemies have been changed and combat is more dynamic in that you no longer have to outlast your opponent, you would no longer need to spam health potions/healing magic. You could change the healing system to what you've proposed but for me, once the source of the issue is addressed it would just be replacing one healing system with another.

[fchopin]

daaaav wrote...

fchopin wrote...


In DA2 you don’t need a healer to play the game as after your sister is taken out of the game if you don’t like Anders then you have no healer in your team.

If you went the whole game without Anders or your character specced as a healer then I salute you sir. I don't remember it being that easy though, and I'll wager that it would be a more enjoyable experienced if Bioware deisgned the combat system with non healing parties in mind.

I played the game with Merril after my sister disappeared as i don’t like Anders, i don’t like Merril either but Bioware forced as to use a mental case for a mage in DA2 and there was nothing i could do about it.
For me both Merril and Anders belong in a mental hospital but that is another subject.
I think many gamers played the game without a healer as they don’t like Anders so i am not alone.
Personally i like to have a healer in my team as i like a balanced team prepared for all emergencies and don’t like being forced to be without a healer.

I think some gamers used a mod to give Merril healing in the game.

[Little Queen]

fchopin wrote...

What would be the point of a mage healer if they remove the dependency on healing?

wondering the same tbh.   Im fine with how it is. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Little Queen wrote...

fchopin wrote...

What would be the point of a mage healer if they remove the dependency on healing?

wondering the same tbh.   Im fine with how it is. 

The Creation tree and Anders' personal skill tree aren't just healing.  TBH I used those trees more for their party buffs and combat bonuses.  And besides, all the OP wanted was the ability to get through the game in a fun manner without having to drag a healer everywhere or constantly guzzle health potions.  That doesn't mean ditching healers.  It's more about giving other classes additional ways of protecting their hit point pool.

[Night Dreams]

I don't think that would be wise. Doesn't anyone remember the amount of complaints that came out of them putting a refresh time on the potions in DA2? They tried to remove at least some dependancy, and it didn't work. Personally I didn't mind it, but dislike the idea of removing them all together.
Does that mean you would get rid of spirit healers as well? And if not, it would be even harder to leave on a mission without them. It's hard enough if Wynne leaves you or *spoilers* if you choose to kill Anders.

[Thrillian]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Little Queen wrote...

fchopin wrote...

What would be the point of a mage healer if they remove the dependency on healing?

wondering the same tbh.   Im fine with how it is. 

The Creation tree and Anders' personal skill tree aren't just healing.  TBH I used those trees more for their party buffs and combat bonuses.  And besides, all the OP wanted was the ability to get through the game in a fun manner without having to drag a healer everywhere or constantly guzzle health potions.  That doesn't mean ditching healers.  It's more about giving other classes additional ways of protecting their hit point pool.

Yes thank you!  I am sorry but after playing a game 10 times plus, you get to the point where no matter the specs, you prefer a certain companion in your party.  I think that is where the Healing potions originate.  They are there to too provide an accurate/equal gaming experience ( to the best of their ability) no matter who is in your party.

Sorry, but that is how I've always treated health potions and how I always will. As an alternative for those who don't wish to have a mage in their party.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Thrillho_82 wrote...
Sorry, but that is how I've always treated health potions and how I always will. As an alternative for those who don't wish to have a mage in their party.

The point of this thread is just that there should be alternatives beyond just potions.  Healing pots work, but it's simplistic.

Rogues are fast and sneaky--maybe they have a stance that lets them briefly evade more enemy attacks.  Warriors can have abilities that soak up a crapton of damage.  Everyone gets CCs to minimize enemy damage, maybe a costly self-heal if things get nasty.  That IMO is more interesting than "click button to heal."

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 octobre 2012 - 10:26 .

[daaaav]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

daaaav wrote...

fchopin wrote...


In DA2 you don’t need a healer to play the game as after your sister is taken out of the game if you don’t like Anders then you have no healer in your team.

If you went the whole game without Anders or your character specced as a healer then I salute you sir. I don't remember it being that easy though, and I'll wager that it would be a more enjoyable experienced if Bioware deisgned the combat system with non healing parties in mind.

While I may be letting nostalgia dictate how I feel about RPG's I would still like to hear your alternative to either mage or potion in regard to the Hit Point issue.  If you have an alternative, I would love to hear it.

Okay, off the top of my head, lets take a typical tanking senario. Big boss (or group of enemies).

Senario 1: one tank and one healer

Pretty standard setup, tank tanks boss and healer heals the tank. The healer can also do some support and Dps and the tank can do some DPS. The point is that they keep the Boss busy.

Senario 2: one tank and one rogue

Tank activates ability "back to back" on the rogue. The tank and rogue now fight as a cohesive unit and can combine their damage mitigation stats and abilities in order to survive. They have a restriction that they cannot move more than a few feet from each other. Tank can still DPS and the Rogue can still DPS and support but they again keep the boss busy.

Same thing accomplished with 2 sets of different characters.

Modifié par daaaav, 09 octobre 2012 - 10:42 .

[milena87]

I'm all for more choices: playing without a healer should be possible (and hard of course) even on higher difficulties. A buffed and well coordinated DPS party could do this, but I'm having trouble believing that a Boss could be defeated without potions or healing spells.

[Unknown_Warrior]

I'm EXTREMELY against this.
Dragon Age games already depend too heavily on the DPS-Tank/Sword&Board-Healer archetype. While it luckily wasn't TOO required in DAO since you could dripfeed Health Potions (and thus, were allowed to leave Alistair and Wynne at camp if you didn't want them) you were basically required to use Anders in DA2 because of the potion cooldowns. While I'm not against DA2 as much as most people, this aspect can **** right off. I didn't like Anders, and to be forced to use him is just aggrevating, especially since I want to mix up my party once in a while but am forced not to unless I want to drop down to Casual difficulty or see more game-overs than a Super Mario ROMhack.

And yeah, you can argue that you don't need Wynne/Anders since Morrigan/Warden|Hawke/Bethany can fulfill that role. But only late in the game, you're still forced to play roughly 2/3rds of the game using either a healer or potions.

tl;dr: No OP.

Modifié par Unknown_Warrior, 09 octobre 2012 - 10:41 .

[Bfler]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Rogues are fast and sneaky--maybe they have a stance that lets them briefly evade more enemy attacks.  Warriors can have abilities that soak up a crapton of damage.  Everyone gets CCs to minimize enemy damage, maybe a costly self-heal if things get nasty.  That IMO is more interesting than "click button to heal."

You can only do that via talent three and with that you limit the available builds of the chars, because you would have to choose these  live-saving talents to advance in higher difficulties. The same problem like f.e. in D3, where you have only one or two viable builds per char.