159 réponses à ce sujet

[daaaav]

Unknown_Warrior wrote...

I'm EXTREMELY against this.
Dragon Age games already depend too heavily on the DPS-Tank/Sword&Board-Healer archetype. While it luckily wasn't TOO required in DAO since you could dripfeed Health Potions (and thus, were allowed to leave Alistair and Wynne at camp if you didn't want them) you were basically required to use Anders in DA2 because of the potion cooldowns. While I'm not against DA2 as much as most people, this aspect can **** right off. I didn't like Anders, and to be forced to use him is just aggrevating, especially since I want to mix up my party once in a while but am forced not to unless I want to drop down to Casual difficulty or see more game-overs than a Super Mario ROMhack.

And yeah, you can argue that you don't need Wynne/Anders since Morrigan/Warden|Hawke/Bethany can fulfill that role. But only late in the game, you're still forced to play roughly 2/3rds of the game using either a healer or potions.

tl;dr: No OP.

Yes... my whole point is that no one should be forced to play either using a healer or health potions... That is my point.

[daaaav]

Night Dreams wrote...

I don't think that would be wise. Doesn't anyone remember the amount of complaints that came out of them putting a refresh time on the potions in DA2? They tried to remove at least some dependancy, and it didn't work. Personally I didn't mind it, but dislike the idea of removing them all together.
Does that mean you would get rid of spirit healers as well? And if not, it would be even harder to leave on a mission without them. It's hard enough if Wynne leaves you or *spoilers* if you choose to kill Anders.

I still don't understand why people find guzzling health potions to be an engaging game mechanic...

I'm not saying get rid of spirit healers. I'm saying that a party without a spirit healer should have different strenghts and weaknesses but should be able to accomplish the same thing as a party WITH a spirit healer.

See my example on tanking

[NRieh]

Yes... my whole point is that no one should be forced to play either using a healer or health potions... That is my point.

There are two ways to keep healthbar full, yes.
Either you have an option to refill it (potion, spell, skill - no matter)
Or you can try to prevent it from running empty.

Second way is what you suggest, I suppose. Pro-active healing, which is not really a healing - but doing stuff so that you do not lose health at all or lose little. Somehow you also suggest that such type of "healing" does not involve any spam. Well, as I played 2 MMOs with pro-active healers (WoW resto-druid, TOR scoundrel) - spam does not go away. You simply spam "something that protects" instead of "somethig that heals". No matter if it's dedicated healer's job or player has those skills on his own non-healing class.

You mentioned ME as a "healing- free" example, but that's FAR from true. ME1 had "first aid" spec and support classes (engineer, sentinel - those I remember) and used megi-gel same as potions. Both ME2 and ME3 have no "first aid" skills, but still they have medigel, which becomes not only health potion, but also something like a combat res for party.

Yes - both ME2&3 also have shield regen system, but...I doubt you really want to see cover-based combat mechanics in DA, and also - I doubt DA lore can stomach the idea of an armor, that heals you depending on its upgrade type and self-regenerating magic shields.That's....kinds spacemagical for Thedas, imo. Not to mention that ME3 MP has medi kits, which 100% act like any other healing-rejuvenation potion. So, no- MEs are NOT healing-free.

To put it short - if you even get rid of all reactive healing - you'll need to outbalance those with proactive skills, which will be constantly used. And while you'd be able to say "oh, I play with no healer in party and no potions" - the reality will be that you'll spam your buffs, shields, evasions and regens. And if those will have long CDs to prevent you from spaming - you'd have to run "8" around pillars and wait for your defensive CD to over.

Personaly I love playing healing classes (though, I usually do it in MP games, not in SP ). And yes - healer is not usually about healing, but also about some buffs-debuffs-CC-DoTs etc - whatever is needed. I'm all for nice, strategic and various class and party builds. But I don't see how eliminating healer as a class may help you get any of those.

Modifié par Nrieh, 09 octobre 2012 - 11:55 .

[Rawgrim]

Seeing that potions were a big part of the first two games, removing them would make no sense. Also it would kind of be abit lore-breaking. Why fight without healing potions when people did it all the time, and survived by doing it, 1 year ago?

[mousestalker]

If they renamed the health poultices to health potions, life would be better.

[C9316]

Nice, add a feature where you regain health by being idle. Like in Gears of War.

[kingjezza]

Nobody is forcing anybody to use potions, or even a healer.

If you want to play the game like that then it is possible now, at least Origins is, I'm struggling to remember my three quarter play through of DA2.

[Fast Jimmy]

I think this entire thread is an indictment on the complete lack of playing tactically in DA2. You can't properly aggro crowds to protect your paper rogues/mages and, even if you could, raining-from-the-skies enemies in almost every encounter completely negates any intelligent character placement.

You could get away with tank tactics or defensive abilities if you could actually have some semblance of an idea where the enemies would be coming from. I'm not against waves (or even enemies dropping from the sky, when it makes sense), but it needs to have some level of logic to it and shouldn't be used every encounter. Otherwise, they have to design the mechanics to account for you being unable to use tactics ever (which is what I feel they did in DA2).

[Aleya]

I get what you're trying to accomplish and I like the idea of making combat more strategic. But I don't want my health pots removed. If I make a mistake, because I'm not paying attention, I don't know the fight, or something distracts me, then I want to be able to down some pots and continue. I don't want to die and have to start all over again.

I'm fine with putting a heavy cooldown on both pots and healing abilities, or giving each class a unique way to quickly replenish some health, but I want my safety net.

[deatharmonic]

daaaav wrote...

deatharmonic wrote...

I disagree. I think the focus should be on changing enemies. I can see why you would focus on health potions and magic when we had fights like the 1v1 with the Arishok. The only way to beat him was to basically outlast him, it was like a war of attrition and that should be a perfect example to Bioware of how not to implement combat, that was lazy and unimaginative imho. Now, if you remove dependency on healing potions you would still have to employ the same tactics in a fight like that. The only difference being you would now be reliant on the new mechanic in order to outlast the boss. Bosses (like the Arishok) would still have their ridiculously high health stats etc, so I say change that rather than the potion/magic system. Give them weak spots we have to find or unique susceptibilities or certain things available in the environment to use.

I digress, I believe the problem stems from high level enemies merely having their stats boosted which leads to the player having to outlast them in battle via the use of potions/magic healing. Changing the enemies would mean you won't have to rely on health spamming etc.

I agree with you about the enemies. I don't understand why you want to keep health potions though... It seems to me that the two initiatives go hand in hand.

Well what I stated addresses the enemies as the problem, not the health potions. So once the enemies have been changed and combat is more dynamic in that you no longer have to outlast your opponent, you would no longer need to spam health potions/healing magic. You could change the healing system to what you've proposed but for me, once the source of the issue is addressed it would just be replacing one healing system with another.

[Overlord_Mephist]

They should remove health and make it so you die or lose limbs if you don't block/dodge/parry.

It would be.... REALISTIC....

EVERYONE loves realism

[Fallstar]

Tanks and healers weren't required in either DAO or DA2. In both games, using extra DPS companions to just kill everything faster thereby taking less damage was far more productive.

I'll point you to Arelex's DA2 builds, which are designed around competitive nightmare runs.

http://social.biowar...5/index/6616406
http://social.biowar...5/index/6890353
http://social.biowar...5/index/7126577

Even when using a companion such as Anders, he is optimized for DPS, not healing.

In DAO, there really was no need for dedicated healers/tanks. 2H and DW warriors were more than capable off tanks, and rogues could be built into dex tanks. (they were still primarily a DPS role however)

Combined with how potent CC is in DA (Mass paralysis, Cone of Cold, 100% stun chances etc.) There's no need for healers/tanks.

[Blessed Silence]

daaaav wrote...

bob_20000 wrote...

Well, maybe a potion limit (like The Witcher's toxicity bar) would be a good compromise.
Sorry, but potions are needed in RPG's. All RPG's have them, even if you can't drink them during battle.

Perhaps  I wasn't clear enough,

Aren't you tired of the standard RPG mechanics? From fighting weak mobs to powerful mobs that resist all your abilities so the ONLY way to beat them is through healing mechanics?

I would like a system where literally every party combination is viable in a way that satisfies the player that they are not cheating through using consumables...

Remember not everyone is as tactical or awesome as you might be or anoyone else.  I sure am not.

I die a lot on normal.  Oh well, I'm learning.  It takes a while .. if the tactics didn't stink so bad ... and though I don't chug down health potions like you state, I do use them when I'm in toruble (mainly just my tank ... if anyone is dying I did do something wrong).

Bad enough in DA:O you really only had one dedicated healer in Wynne, sorry Morrigan was no healer, unless you made your character one.  Pretty much the same in DA2 between Anders or your Hawke.  That's a pretty good disability so to speak there.

My tactical way of playing is to make sure I am stocked for a battle.  If it isn't yours, that's fine.  You can always sell them or a certain surplus if you don't want them.  Don't screw over those learning who aren't that great at RTS or RPG games but enjoy the story etc.

daaaav wrote...

fchopin wrote...

What would be the point of a mage healer if they remove the dependency on healing?

Exactly the same point as before... except that now you wouldn't HAVE to bring him every single time. This isn't as much about nerfing healers as buffing CC and tanking abilities.

I've read more of the comments in this thread now .. and it sounds like people want to make it into an MMO.

I mean ... really ... everyone independant pretty much. I already deal with juggling aggro and my own health in EQ2 don't need to do it here. If I wanted that sort of game I'd go play that instead.

I really feel the problem with DA:O and DA2 is the Tactics. They really aren't very clear and don't always work. I mean usinging those and no healer could make one's party quite useful if done properly. That's what it's there for, right?

Though, I cannot say I am not behind having more abilities ... at least in the regards of DA2 where I had to take a lot of crap ones to get what I wanted. Why I despise the linked abilities web. Just keep them separated but in tiers with a point cost. That's what would be better I think.

Modifié par Blessed Silence, 09 octobre 2012 - 02:08 .

[Foolsfolly]

daaaav wrote...

Yeah, I'm getting on the remove this and that band wagon...

Please just remove them. How can you generate and balance a robust, enjoyabe and tactical combat system when hooking up to a health pot drip is always a viable fallback position?

This would mean:

- reducing the importance of all healing (dare say a fair few folk are tired of tank heal and spank encounters)
- buffing CC abilities
- Figuring out interesting ways for powerful enemies to have challenge rather than buffing their resistance and hit points...

Remember the sacred ashes trailer? that's what combat should be like!



(Update) For example, take a typical boss tanking senario.

Senario 1: one tank, one healer

Standard setup where tank tanks boss and healer heals tank. The tank can contribute some DPS and the Healer can buff / support. The point is that these two characters keep the boss busy.

Senario 2: one tank, one rogue

Tank activates ability "back to back" on the rogue. The two characters fight as a cohesive unit and can combine their defense stats and abilities in order to survive. Restriction that they cannot be more than a few meters from each other. The tank can still contribute some DPS and the rogue can support / dps but the point is that again, these two characters can keep the boss busy.






Alot of folk commenting that "all RPG's must have health potions" and "It's just the way it's done", could you please elaborate on why you enjoy this mechanic if this is your position?

I can't agree here. They already put a cooldown on health pots in DA2 which typically meant you could only heal once a combat encounter. A few more times if you bring Anders along but in general you got to heal once outside of long boss battles. And that meant it was an emergency use item and not something you rely on.

Of course bringing Anders along really helps the combat aspect of the game by keeping your people alive and well but he's something you can bring along or not. It isn't forced on you (although for a few of the tougher encounters I'd highly suggest bringing him).

They also tied the number of health pots you can bring depending on difficulty. I believe like casual is 9 or so pots and it goes down considerably as you ramp up the difficulty to like 3 pots or so. So they reduced the number of health pots you can find and threw a cooldown on them to further reduce depencency on health pots.

I think reducing the role health pots any further would mean one of two things.

1- Killing enemies would drop health orbs to compensate.
2- Health regen will be much higher making running away and hiding in battle a viable tactic to recover your health.

While I have no problem with either of these tactics in theory I'd rather keep the health pots.

[Foolsfolly]

DuskWarden wrote...

Tanks and healers weren't required in either DAO or DA2. In both games, using extra DPS companions to just kill everything faster thereby taking less damage was far more productive.

I'll point you to Arelex's DA2 builds, which are designed around competitive nightmare runs.

http://social.biowar...5/index/6616406
http://social.biowar...5/index/6890353
http://social.biowar...5/index/7126577

Even when using a companion such as Anders, he is optimized for DPS, not healing.

In DAO, there really was no need for dedicated healers/tanks. 2H and DW warriors were more than capable off tanks, and rogues could be built into dex tanks. (they were still primarily a DPS role however)

Combined with how potent CC is in DA (Mass paralysis, Cone of Cold, 100% stun chances etc.) There's no need for healers/tanks.

As someone who has used a few of Arelex's builds the man knows his builds. And they're fantastic. I'd highly suggest anyone to look at them and play them. Or better take what he did and adapt parts of it to suit your playstyle. (my favorite was the non-patched Beserk-Reaver Mach 5 build which was a great great treat to play as).

[daaaav]

Aleya wrote...

I get what you're trying to accomplish and I like the idea of making combat more strategic. But I don't want my health pots removed. If I make a mistake, because I'm not paying attention, I don't know the fight, or something distracts me, then I want to be able to down some pots and continue. I don't want to die and have to start all over again.

I'm fine with putting a heavy cooldown on both pots and healing abilities, or giving each class a unique way to quickly replenish some health, but I want my safety net.

Perhaps not removed... everyone likes an oh !@#$ button. But these can be class skills. not pots.

[daaaav]

DuskWarden wrote...

Tanks and healers weren't required in either DAO or DA2. In both games, using extra DPS companions to just kill everything faster thereby taking less damage was far more productive.

I'll point you to Arelex's DA2 builds, which are designed around competitive nightmare runs.

http://social.biowar...5/index/6616406
http://social.biowar...5/index/6890353
http://social.biowar...5/index/7126577

Even when using a companion such as Anders, he is optimized for DPS, not healing.

In DAO, there really was no need for dedicated healers/tanks. 2H and DW warriors were more than capable off tanks, and rogues could be built into dex tanks. (they were still primarily a DPS role however)

Combined with how potent CC is in DA (Mass paralysis, Cone of Cold, 100% stun chances etc.) There's no need for healers/tanks.

Yes, these strategies should be more easily accessible. Not the provence of spread sheets and extensive trial and error...

[Kail Ashton]

and another perfect example of why fan suggestions should never be listened to, since once again as this topic clearly shows they only care about the game THEY want, not what's best for EVERYONE, not what's best to make a broadly acceptable game in this modern market that everyone can pick up & enjoy

Cause who needs sales amirite?? who wants this series to continue anyway amirite??

[daaaav]

Kail Ashton wrote...

and another perfect example of why fan suggestions should never be listened to, since once again as this topic clearly shows they only care about the game THEY want, not what's best for EVERYONE, not what's best to make a broadly acceptable game in this modern market that everyone can pick up & enjoy

Cause who needs sales amirite?? who wants this series to continue anyway amirite??

Look, judging from the majority of posts I've obviously failed to make the point I wanted...

I would like to INCREASE the number of viable party options. Not reduce them.

I think the best way to accomplish this is to give non healer classes abilities that enable a party without a healer to achieve what a party with a healer can.

I also think that health pots are a boring, stale, cop out and can be replaced with more interesting mechanics.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Bfler wrote...
You can only do that via talent three and with that you limit the available builds of the chars, because you would have to choose these  live-saving talents to advance in higher difficulties. The same problem like f.e. in D3, where you have only one or two viable builds per char.

Then maybe each class always gets one or two defensive powers, or each tree has its own unique defensive power.  And if you don't wanna pick those or use them, you can always bring a healer.  It's more about bringing variety to the gameplay beyond tank, spank, and heal.  It is the spice of life and all.

And besides, we're just tossing ideas around.  It's probably so much pie in the sky anyway until we know more about DA3's combat system.

deatharmonic wrote...
Well what I stated addresses the enemies as the problem, not the health potions. So once the enemies have been changed and combat is more dynamic in that you no longer have to outlast your opponent, you would no longer need to spam health potions/healing magic. You could change the healing system to what you've proposed but for me, once the source of the issue is addressed it would just be replacing one healing system with another.

I like the thought, but a lot of improving the enemies really comes down to improving their AI.  Otherwise the easiest way to make encounters harder is to have more bad guys or tougher bad guys who hit harder, and that creates the problem of outlasting.  Generally speaking, BioWare's combat AI is ok , but usually not complex enough to make encounters more tactical on its own.  It'd be nice to see them put some more time and energy into enemy smarts but it's not their strong suit.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 octobre 2012 - 03:34 .

[Quicksilver26]

no dude just no

[daaaav]

Quicksilver26 wrote...

no dude just no

Ha! indeed. I did not truly understand how precious traditional RPG mechanics are to folk.

[mousestalker]

[DarkKnightHolmes]

mousestalker wrote...

Pretty much. Potion addict and proud.

[Terrorize69]

Remove health potions but increase dependency on healing.

I'd much prefer to see this, more tactics involved, higher demand on a healer, higher demand on a "tank" or warrior to control a crowd or a boss, higher demand on a DD to find the right balance between dealing damage and preventing it.