159 réponses à ce sujet

[daaaav]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...


But DAAAAAAAAV

...I need my potionzzz

Hmmm, perhaps they're an aquired taste and I'm just not using them enough!

[mav805]

What daaaaav is proposing would be great if it were done well. He doesn't think that the: Get Hurt >>> Heal, Get Hurt >>> Heal should be the only way to play the game. Either do I. I think it would be much more interesting and a much better game if there were other abilities and mechanics to replace pure healing, if that's what you'd like and you spec your party to do so.

So what does that mean? It means you improve the range of abilities for all classes. Increase their ability to reliably negate damage for heavy attacks, apply debuffs, etc. And make those abilities actually useful and worth using.

Why do there need to be 15 different skills for each class that just do damage? There should be more utility and strategic use of skills available. That would lead to more satisfying and fun gameplay imo.

So let's say you have a tank class that uses "Perfect Block" to negate damage for the 15 seconds it takes you to kill a particular enemy. Then after the fight, your Ranger uses his "Gather Herbs" skill, that's only available while out of combat mind you, but restores a particular % of HP to the tank. The next fight the tank uses "Adrenaline Rush" that triggers a HP regen. And the Assassin uses "Paralysis Venom" that is a buff that lasts for 4 swings of his weapon, but has a high chance to paralyze enemies that he hits. Of course to ensure that he hits his mark, the Ranger uses "Smoke Trap" to lower the Evasion of those enemies to 0 for 10 seconds.

Of course, you need to spec your characters like that, so if you prefer for some to go all out DPS and to have a healer, that's cool too. The fact that the OP is against potion spam probably because it seems like a cheap "tactic", something that is an easy fix for the lack of real abilities that you can count on when you need them. Personally, I think that there should be a small potion pouch that limits the # of potions that each character can carry along with them anyway.

Anyway OP, I like the idea. All these are generic, simple ideas of course, but as far as cross-class combo's, this is the direction I'd go.

Modifié par mav805, 10 octobre 2012 - 09:37 .

[NRieh]

I never said that I want to eliminate healing classes.

I want two things:

- To reduce a parties DEPENDANCE on bringing a healer. This was not possible in DAO but I will admit that it was improved upon in DA2.

- To ensure that non healer parties are viable without having to spam health potions. Again, this is not possible in DAO and again I admit that it has been improved upon in DA2.

I am not a power gamer. I am terrible at them. So if I want to compose a party of characters that I like, and none of them happen to be healers, I would like enjoyable ways to complete the game without resorting to spreadsheets or consumable spam (in my opinion, the least enjoyable combat mechanic).

You cannot tell me that fighting the Arishok in DA2 by running around pillars for Health pot CD's for half an hour was an enjoyable experience...

Well, if we did have any kind of combat mechanics changes - you'd still have to run same 8 around pillars, but you'd be waiting not for a health potion, but for your defensive CD to over.

Problem with Arishok was not about potions. My archer kited him around making bursts when he charged into the wall, he could barely hit me (but it was normal mode - may be he's a bit faster on hard - I don't know). Then I had to wait for my CDs and another charging into the wall. This combat is just a very poor example of boss fight, really. There is hardly a difference between waiting for potion or skill CD. And you had no other options. Any close contact with rogue (or worse - mage) and you'll get your impale, which is an instakill.

I think I understood you right now, though first I thought you're some kind of hard strategy geek, to be honest (no offence), and you like things really hard and complex. 8)

You want to be able to pick party acodring to your personal preference, not some strategy. Just pick fafourite party members - and play. Right? Still - I can't see how potions prevent you from doing so...

Well, DA2 had it for you more or less, and I can't say I enjoyed it. Party members did not matter (on normals, most of the time). Tank could not really hold aggro anyway , especially - against AOE. Mobs drop from everywhere, and only in some solo boss fights (like High Dragon) you could theorethically try to do some strategy. I tried it with Aveline (who is "official" tanking companion), I tried it with Fenris and even Izabella. It did not matter. 2 melee+2 ranged - all worked same way, and it was same hack-n-slash and AOEing. The only strategic and complex battle I can remember was Corypheus - and it's DLC.

Anders is your extra heal, but it has same long CD. So - he's more like an extra res. If you made him drink potion in right time. Worst nonsense I've ever seen - a healer with a lot of mana who is drinking a potion to keep himself alive and res party.

As I said - I did not like the very idea of discarding roles and messing classes. An Archer with 4 shots total 2 of which are AOE?... Healer that drinks healthpotions because his only single-target heal is on long CD?.. Two-haned Fenris tanking same mediocre as shielded Aveline?..

In DAO specs defined the role. And, by the way, you could spec character to fit your needs. Any war could be dw, 2handed, archer or shield-user. Any rogue could be both dw and archer with any of sub-spec. You could set up Sten for tanking, and you could give Oghren a crossbow (if you wish). Can you make Varric DW or give Bella a bow? Can you ask Aveline to use a crossbow?

I'm saying it again - your issue does not seem to be about healers and potions.
What you ask - is an ability to play with flexible party setup. And neither healers nor potions prevent it (even more - potions are supposed to support your "independence").

And while DA2 did offer some of it - I really dislike the way they did it. Though guides allow you to see some builds for maxing DPS - it's only the matter of quicker or slower of hack-n-slashing. It has not much to do with actual strategy and flexibility. I'd love to see more of DAO

[Lord Gremlin]

I'd prefer ability to spec in a specific way that allows to ignore potions and usual healing spells. Like ability to regenerate health from successful attacks and kills etc. If you take them out entirely you'll simplify the game too much. Unless of course you completely switch genre and make something like God of War.
But I'd say right now Dragon Age would work better if it would be like God Eater Burst. And that used health items a lot. I wonder if Gaider and other devs ever played God Eater...

[daaaav]

Nrieh wrote...

I'm saying it again - your issue does not seem to be about healers and potions.
What you ask - is an ability to play with flexible party setup. And neither healers nor potions prevent it (even more - potions are supposed to support your "independence").

And while DA2 did offer some of it - I really dislike the way they did it. Though guides allow you to see some builds for maxing DPS - it's only the matter of quicker or slower of hack-n-slashing. It has not much to do with actual strategy and flexibility. I'd love to see more of DAO

I apologise for only addressing this part of your post since the rest did contain many good points, perhaps I will get to it later.

I agree with you that healers and pots do not prevent flexible party play on their own. I have also never really advocated that healers should be removed or changed at all. So potions are where I chose to direct my arguments. Potions do indeed support independance to a certain extent, but my gripe is that they do it in possibly the most boring, stale and simplistic way imaginable... They replace an essential party member (healer) with a portable healing spell. This in no way encourages the use of creative party tactics and I would go as far as to say that it limits the incentive of developers to generate creative combat systems.

It is a massive cop out and needs to evolve.

[daaaav]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

I'd prefer ability to spec in a specific way that allows to ignore potions and usual healing spells. Like ability to regenerate health from successful attacks and kills etc. If you take them out entirely you'll simplify the game too much. Unless of course you completely switch genre and make something like God of War.
But I'd say right now Dragon Age would work better if it would be like God Eater Burst. And that used health items a lot. I wonder if Gaider and other devs ever played God Eater...

I largely agree with you, except that I believe that removing potions would in effect encourage players and developers to generate and use more creative and interesting combat mechanics.

[daaaav]

mav805 wrote...

What daaaaav is proposing would be great if it were done well. He doesn't think that the: Get Hurt >>> Heal, Get Hurt >>> Heal should be the only way to play the game. Either do I. I think it would be much more interesting and a much better game if there were other abilities and mechanics to replace pure healing, if that's what you'd like and you spec your party to do so.

So what does that mean? It means you improve the range of abilities for all classes. Increase their ability to reliably negate damage for heavy attacks, apply debuffs, etc. And make those abilities actually useful and worth using.

Why do there need to be 15 different skills for each class that just do damage? There should be more utility and strategic use of skills available. That would lead to more satisfying and fun gameplay imo.

So let's say you have a tank class that uses "Perfect Block" to negate damage for the 15 seconds it takes you to kill a particular enemy. Then after the fight, your Ranger uses his "Gather Herbs" skill, that's only available while out of combat mind you, but restores a particular % of HP to the tank. The next fight the tank uses "Adrenaline Rush" that triggers a HP regen. And the Assassin uses "Paralysis Venom" that is a buff that lasts for 4 swings of his weapon, but has a high chance to paralyze enemies that he hits. Of course to ensure that he hits his mark, the Ranger uses "Smoke Trap" to lower the Evasion of those enemies to 0 for 10 seconds.

Of course, you need to spec your characters like that, so if you prefer for some to go all out DPS and to have a healer, that's cool too. The fact that the OP is against potion spam probably because it seems like a cheap "tactic", something that is an easy fix for the lack of real abilities that you can count on when you need them. Personally, I think that there should be a small potion pouch that limits the # of potions that each character can carry along with them anyway.

Anyway OP, I like the idea. All these are generic, simple ideas of course, but as far as cross-class combo's, this is the direction I'd go.

Good post. Unfortunately, at the moment there are quite literally only four of us that think this is a somewhat good idea...

[Quicksilver26]

I like to use my health point whenever i want because it fun i don't play video game for any other reason than to have fun if i have no health potion which are there to make the game easier it fun if i have no health potions or they have a high cooldown for no reason it becomes less fun and it breaks my "immersion"(gods i hate that word) health potions are maybe one of the "unrealistic" things in gaming and i for one would would like them to stay the way they were because it is FUN and that what a game is suppose to be if you don't like them you do not have to use them but if they are gone i never get to use them and its no fun for me leave the health potions the way they are because it's fun!

Modifié par Quicksilver26, 10 octobre 2012 - 03:59 .

[Nomen Mendax]

daaaav wrote...

...

Good post. Unfortunately, at the moment there are quite literally only four of us that think this is a somewhat good idea...

Five, I think its a great idea.  As well as disliking the effect they have on tactics I aslo dislike it that the only way the hero can win some battles is by guzzling magical healing potions, as it hardly seems very heroic.

[daaaav]

Quicksilver26 wrote...

I like to use my health point whenever i want because it fun i don't play video game for any other reason than to have fun if i have no health potion which are there to make the game easier it fun if i have no health potions or they have a high cooldown for no reason it becomes less fun and it breaks my "immersion"(gods i hate that word) health potions or maybe one of the "unrealistic" things in gaming and i for would would like them to stay the way they were because it is FUN and that what a game is suppose to be if you don't like them you do not have to use them but if they are gone i never get to use them and its no fun for me leave the health potions the way they are bause it fun!

Ha!

Firstly, I care little for realism in games...

If you are satisfied with the mechanic and everything that it implies, then that's fair enough. I don't expect to change everyones minds. I however, do not find it fun for the following reasons:

- Health potions provide a "safety net" that is not adequately immersed and hidden in the combat mechanics. This removes alot of the tension in combat and for myself, breaks immersion (what's wrong with that word by the way?)

- Health potions have stagnated combat mechanics in general. Developers and players rely on them too much and do not generate creative and interesting combat tactics.

[MichaelStuart]

I support reduced healing.

[Wulfram]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Five, I think its a great idea.  As well as disliking the effect they have on tactics I aslo dislike it that the only way the hero can win some battles is by guzzling magical healing potions, as it hardly seems very heroic.

They could refluff the healing potion to instead be the character reinvigorating themselves through a heroic effort.  Would be more heroic, would make the cooldown make more sense, and would allow them to scrap the fake consumable mechanic that only dissuades people from using the potions and thus makes them think a healer is necessary.

[Kaidan Fan]

Personally I'm fine with how this is in game already. I don't mind the long cooldowns on potions but didn't much care for it on spells. But I rather have healing than not.

[Quicksilver26]

daaaav wrote...

Quicksilver26 wrote...

I like to use my health point whenever i want because it fun i don't play video game for any other reason than to have fun if i have no health potion which are there to make the game easier it fun if i have no health potions or they have a high cooldown for no reason it becomes less fun and it breaks my "immersion"(gods i hate that word) health potions or maybe one of the "unrealistic" things in gaming and i for would would like them to stay the way they were because it is FUN and that what a game is suppose to be if you don't like them you do not have to use them but if they are gone i never get to use them and its no fun for me leave the health potions the way they are bause it fun!

Ha!

Firstly, I care little for realism in games...

If you are satisfied with the mechanic and everything that it implies, then that's fair enough. I don't expect to change everyones minds. I however, do not find it fun for the following reasons:

- Health potions provide a "safety net" that is not adequately immersed and hidden in the combat mechanics. This removes alot of the tension in combat and for myself, breaks immersion (what's wrong with that word by the way?)

- Health potions have stagnated combat mechanics in general. Developers and players rely on them too much and do not generate creative and interesting combat tactics.

yes health potions are a "safety net" is why i like it. you never have to use them. it's up to you to do what you like with the tactics. you can make it hard on yourself by saying i'm only gonna use 10 20 or 30 health potions the whole game and sick with it. you do not have to use them you can pretend they're not even there you'd if like. (oh and I don't like the word  immersion or realistic because they being way over used it's a videogame a fantasy there to have fun and with say things like i don't want health potions random loot from dogs and unrealistic weapons because immersion just pisses me off cause its supposed to be like that cause its a damn FANTASY VIDEO GAME it's supposed to be unreal)

[robertthebard]

daaaav wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...


Then the problem becomes "Why have any specializations at all?" You are pretty much asking for anyone to be able to do anything at this point. Why have a rogue if everyone can lockipick and backstab? Why have a mage if everyone can heal? Why have a warrior if everyone can tank? Why have anyone else there at all?

That isn't what I said.

I don't want every class to be able to heal. I don't want every class to be able do everything.

What I do want is the possibility that a COMBINATION of class abilities can replace the need for a healer. If you want to bring a healer, then bring a healer. If you want to bring a DPS / CC mage, a rogue and two warriors you can do that as well.

This is already present.  I can run parties in either DA game w/out healer spec'd characters.  If you can't do this, it's not a failing of the game, or the system for the game, but in yourself as a player.  Sorry, there's no way to present that truth w/out seeming snarky.  I play DA O on Nightmare, and rarely bring a mage with me, unless they are required for a specific quest.  I played DA 2 w/out a mage because, quite frankly, I don't like Anders, and liked some of the other characters banter better than forcing myself to rely on mages/poultices to get it done.  I set up my parties to augment eachother, and rarely needed pots for healing.  Since using them is optional, what's the big deal if they exist?  You can always sell them off and not have to worry about having them, and leave your mages at their camp/your base, which ever the case may be in 3.  There's no need to try to mess it up for people that may want or need these options just because you don't like them.

[Somokon]

It's kind of sad how many people in this thread don't understand what the OP is saying at all, can't think outside the box, and take it as some sort of personal insult that the OP wants to take away their potions and leave the rest of the combat system the same.

I for one would love to see a combat system that greatly de-emphasized potions as a main source of healing (and stamina/mana regen). Instead give all classes their own healing/defensive/party support abilities. Anyone who has played Guild Wars 2 will be familiar with this system, you can form a party with any class combination, it's just a matter of speccing out your skills correctly. Spirit healers would still in the game, and would still provide great healing support, but if you didn't want to use one, it would just be a matter of using the support skills of other party members instead.

However I still think potions should be left in the game, meant to be used as a last resort, and given a LONG (60+ seconds) cooldown.

Modifié par Somokon, 10 octobre 2012 - 06:44 .

[mav805]

Somokon wrote...

It's kind of sad how many people in this thread don't understand what the OP is saying at all, can't think outside the box, and take it as some sort of personal insult that the OP wants to take away their potions and leave the rest of the combat system the same.

I almost said that earlier, to me it seems that folks just weren't clearly understanding what the OP was suggesting. A re-invention of the system however, would lead to much greater flexability in builds and skill progression, actual useful item buffs, poisons/venoms, and much more interesting and tactical encounters in my opinion. If the proper work was put into it of course.

[NRieh]

I for one would love to see a combat system that greatly de-emphasized potions as a main source of healing (and stamina/mana regen). Instead give all classes their own healing/defensive/party support abilities.

Changing reactive healing into pro-active skills used by a non-healer class alone does NOT fix combat mechanics issues, does not prevent from spamming and does not actually add any flexibility to your party. It just replaces "waiting for potion(healer) CD" with "waiting for some pro-active-regen-buff skill CD". I honestly do not see it as a reasonable change at all, besides the very fact that you can say "I'm playing without healer - oh, super atypical me".

Flexibility for me is when you can suit needed companion for a different roles- tank, melee damage, ranged damage, CC, single target, aoe, dot etc. E.g. make Fenris an archer. The only really flexible character in DA2 was Anders, whom you could keep both as DPS or healer. Bethany also - but she's out of party most of the game. Rest were pre-restricted. Varric is only ranged dps, Bella is only dw dps, Aveline is shielded tank. Builds do not change their role, they can only min-max their numbers.

[Eternal Phoenix]

This is a good idea Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaav. Maybe they could implement it into a nightmare difficulty above well, um nightmare. Or they could implement it into the nightmare difficulty itself. That would certainly make things harder for those who want it.

[frostajulie]

I enjoy the mechanic of health potions because I suck and this way I don't have to get a game over some days I am playing and I don't want to think I just want to button mash and blow **** up. Maybe just have them in casual? A fair compromise?

[Quicksilver26]

frostajulie wrote...

I enjoy the mechanic of health potions because I suck and this way I don't have to get a game over some days I am playing and I don't want to think I just want to button mash and blow **** up. Maybe just have them in casual? A fair compromise?

yes without a dout yes +100 leave them in casual take them out at nightmare that i'd be fine with

yay to button mashing and blowing sh*t up:wizard:

[snackrat]

Hmm. If they did that you'd need more healing options. In DA2 the only healers were Anders and (potentially!) Mage!Hawke. Warriors/rogues would be required to take him.

Edit: wait. If you don't want potions why not have self-imposed difficulty and don't use them? Take them out of tactIcs, never click on them and just sell them when you can. Removing them makes it unnecessarily hard on People lacking the skill, confidence, or are tired of dying in the last few sec of a fight. And what are mana/stam potions? Removing those too? If no, what's the point? RemovIng health pots just adds a step and requires a healer Mage.  If yes, good luck having enough mana for a heal at a tight point in battle. Better use a healing pot inste-- OH WAIT.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 10 octobre 2012 - 10:14 .

[Dagr88]

Gameplay without potions or healers... For that you'll need to further improve (All of those are already present in DA2):

- Tanking/Mob control
- Enemy's resistances (weak/strong against fire/bow/mace/spirit damage) (unlikely to be staggered/frozen)
- Small regeneration abilities
- "Stop" skills

Cross-class combo was a very good idea.
Gaming skill is the most important factor, so I would just recommend (for the 1X time) to add extra game difficulty.

P.S. NO Healing Spheres on the floor please! It's unlikely that BW would implement them, but it had to be said.

Modifié par Dagr88, 10 octobre 2012 - 10:15 .

[dreman9999]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

In DA:O you were forced to bring a healer companion. In DA2 you just ended up running around kiting the enemy while waiting for the cooldown on potions to expire. Neither situation was particularly fun or challenging. If DA3 could change that either by having less of a dependency on healing or making healing more interesting then I'm all for it.

Sounds like you made bad builds.