159 réponses à ce sujet

[daaaav]

Karsciyin wrote...

Hmm. If they did that you'd need more healing options. In DA2 the only healers were Anders and (potentially!) Mage!Hawke. Warriors/rogues would be required to take him.

Edit: wait. If you don't want potions why not have self-imposed difficulty and don't use them? Take them out of tactIcs, never click on them and just sell them when you can. Removing them makes it unnecessarily hard on People lacking the skill, confidence, or are tired of dying in the last few sec of a fight. And what are mana/stam potions? Removing those too? If no, what's the point? RemovIng health pots just adds a step and requires a healer Mage.  If yes, good luck having enough mana for a heal at a tight point in battle. Better use a healing pot inste-- OH WAIT.

Because of these reasons


- Health potions provide a "safety net" that is not adequately immersed and hidden in the combat mechanics. This removes alot of the tension in combat and for myself, breaks immersion

- Health potions have stagnated combat mechanics in general. Developers and players rely on them too much and do not generate creative and interesting combat tactics.

I don't know how many ways I can say this. I do not want to simply remove health potions. I want to REPLACE them.

[daaaav]

Nrieh wrote...

I for one would love to see a combat system that greatly de-emphasized potions as a main source of healing (and stamina/mana regen). Instead give all classes their own healing/defensive/party support abilities.

Changing reactive healing into pro-active skills used by a non-healer class alone does NOT fix combat mechanics issues, does not prevent from spamming and does not actually add any flexibility to your party. It just replaces "waiting for potion(healer) CD" with "waiting for some pro-active-regen-buff skill CD". I honestly do not see it as a reasonable change at all, besides the very fact that you can say "I'm playing without healer - oh, super atypical me".

Flexibility for me is when you can suit needed companion for a different roles- tank, melee damage, ranged damage, CC, single target, aoe, dot etc. E.g. make Fenris an archer. The only really flexible character in DA2 was Anders, whom you could keep both as DPS or healer. Bethany also - but she's out of party most of the game. Rest were pre-restricted. Varric is only ranged dps, Bella is only dw dps, Aveline is shielded tank. Builds do not change their role, they can only min-max their numbers.

I don't understand why you think this is such a big problem...

At it's core, all combat mechanics are is an exchange of numbers. You could make the same argument for any skill and we could reduce the game to something that resembles accounting...What matters is the illusion that you can only achieve through a video game.

Removing or reducing the importance of health potions may spur the developers to "improve" the illusion so to speak. You haven't replied to my last post so I'm not sure how to further the argument.

[Irkalla]

I'd do it like GW2, every class has their own heals.

[daaaav]

Irkalla wrote...

I'd do it like GW2, every class has their own heals.

Haven't played guild wars but I would prefer to use a combination of self survival skills and cross class combinations. They don't all have to be healing based.

[snackrat]

daaaav wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

Hmm. If they did that you'd need more healing options. In DA2 the only healers were Anders and (potentially!) Mage!Hawke. Warriors/rogues would be required to take him.

Edit: wait. If you don't want potions why not have self-imposed difficulty and don't use them? Take them out of tactIcs, never click on them and just sell them when you can. Removing them makes it unnecessarily hard on People lacking the skill, confidence, or are tired of dying in the last few sec of a fight. And what are mana/stam potions? Removing those too? If no, what's the point? RemovIng health pots just adds a step and requires a healer Mage.  If yes, good luck having enough mana for a heal at a tight point in battle. Better use a healing pot inste-- OH WAIT.

Because of these reasons


- Health potions provide a "safety net" that is not adequately immersed and hidden in the combat mechanics. This removes alot of the tension in combat and for myself, breaks immersion

- Health potions have stagnated combat mechanics in general. Developers and players rely on them too much and do not generate creative and interesting combat tactics.

I don't know how many ways I can say this. I do not want to simply remove health potions. I want to REPLACE them.

Okay. With what?
Doesn't say in your OP and if I go through the pages searching for the word 'replace' all I can see is that you are upset they're 'replacing' healers.

As I've already said, yeah, we need more healers. The ONLY healer in DAII was Anders. Merril doesn't even have Heal, Bethany can get Heal but disappears early on for the rest of the game, and Hawke may not even be a mage. That rather forced dependance on potions (and later, Mythal's Favour), because your only healing option could ACTUALLY LEAVE in the middle of the game, leaving you with NOTHING.

In fact, speaking of dependencies, I ended up very grateful for those potions. Not because I was constantly dying (though occassionally I did get close-ish, especially as an archer against the Arishok - kiting, ho!) but because squadmate AI was moronic.
When fighting Corypheus, for example, I didn't want to have to steer each of them individually around those spiky rocks when the idiots couldn't even run away from the flames WITHOUT obstructions. So I would just navigate that myself, let the idiots die, and solo the thing (using Mythal's Favour for support if necessary). Absolutely shocking.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Or you know, don't buy/use health potions. I've done this before in DA:O.

[daaaav]

Karsciyin wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

Hmm. If they did that you'd need more healing options. In DA2 the only healers were Anders and (potentially!) Mage!Hawke. Warriors/rogues would be required to take him.

Edit: wait. If you don't want potions why not have self-imposed difficulty and don't use them? Take them out of tactIcs, never click on them and just sell them when you can. Removing them makes it unnecessarily hard on People lacking the skill, confidence, or are tired of dying in the last few sec of a fight. And what are mana/stam potions? Removing those too? If no, what's the point? RemovIng health pots just adds a step and requires a healer Mage.  If yes, good luck having enough mana for a heal at a tight point in battle. Better use a healing pot inste-- OH WAIT.

Because of these reasons


- Health potions provide a "safety net" that is not adequately immersed and hidden in the combat mechanics. This removes alot of the tension in combat and for myself, breaks immersion

- Health potions have stagnated combat mechanics in general. Developers and players rely on them too much and do not generate creative and interesting combat tactics.

I don't know how many ways I can say this. I do not want to simply remove health potions. I want to REPLACE them.

Okay. With what?
Doesn't say in your OP and if I go through the pages searching for the word 'replace' all I can see is that you are upset they're 'replacing' healers.

As I've already said, yeah, we need more healers. The ONLY healer in DAII was Anders. Merril doesn't even have Heal, Bethany can get Heal but disappears early on for the rest of the game, and Hawke may not even be a mage. That rather forced dependance on potions (and later, Mythal's Favour), because your only healing option could ACTUALLY LEAVE in the middle of the game, leaving you with NOTHING.

In fact, speaking of dependencies, I ended up very grateful for those potions. Not because I was constantly dying (though occassionally I did get close-ish, especially as an archer against the Arishok - kiting, ho!) but because squadmate AI was moronic.
When fighting Corypheus, for example, I didn't want to have to steer each of them individually around those spiky rocks when the idiots couldn't even run away from the flames WITHOUT obstructions. So I would just navigate that myself, let the idiots die, and solo the thing (using Mythal's Favour for support if necessary). Absolutely shocking.

In my defense, I believe that I (and a few others) have made several suggestions for how this may work. Word searches are not always the best way to gather information.

In the OP I included an example of how two melee characters may substitute for a healer / melee combination in a tanking senario. There have also been many suggestions about how to replace or modify health potions. These range from limiting them and rebalancing the game to replacing them with various character and cross party combination survival talents.

But, from reading the above I'm not sure that we are on the same wavelength.

I understand that DA2 had a problem by which you had to rely on either Anders or potions if the PC wasn't a healer. That is
why I am propsing these changes. It is a possible solution to this problem. I am not advocating that we remove the potions and keep everything else the same. I'm saying that removing / modifying the potions will open the door to other mechanics.

[Realmzmaster]

Nothing stops the developer from adding those other mechanics and still keep the healing potions. One does not preclude the other. The developers has to decide whether to include the new mechanics or not.

[Sanunes]

I don't mind a requirement of healers or healing items, I just want choice, I was really annoyed in Dragon Age 2 that I had to use either Anders or create a Mage to heal my group because the other mages didn't have the ability to heal.

[Joy Divison]

daaaaaaaaaaaaav - Your idea is a good one in theory but I don't see how it can be executed in a CRPG.

OK, lets say you give Aveline all these skills which allow her to do stuff that makes healing potions unnecessary. How is she going to know when to use them? This is an AI we are talking about. You could give me a 100 lines of tactics, and I still wont be able to get her to activate ability X at the split second that it will be needed in gameplay - and even if you could, what good is "stun bad guy about to kill Hawke" if she's 50 feet away? Point: designing skills to compensate for pots is theoretically possible, trusting an AI to implement them properly implausible.

I don't really like DA2 and I hate the combat, but I will give the designers credit for creating a tactics system which I can usually get the companions to roughly do what I want them to do and even occasionally pull off a CCC without babysitting. The level of tactical detail, coordination between multiple characters, and the precise timing needed to rescue a PC with few HPs and not be able to use a healing pot is, however, simply not possible. And what if two characters need healing?

What you are asking for is possible on a table top with actual PCs who spend (too much) time strategizing before every turn, but this is something that is just too intricate for an AI to handle.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 11 octobre 2012 - 04:04 .