17 réponses à ce sujet

[William Zeo]

Hi there, I want to create a dual wielding character that utilize STR for their main ability (a warrior, instead of a sneaky one), so I found the Ranger to be very cheap since he gets dual wielding for free (*cough*), but there are too many Ranger skills/feats that I dislike and I don't plain to be sneaky at all, also a STR dual have poor defenses compared to a Dex (well at least I found to be so).

Then I tried a Dex dual ranger and I liked a lot, the problem is the weapon that needs to be light, then I remembered of the Monkey Grip, but I don't found anywhere saying that It can threat the medium weapons as light weapons, but the skill Itself says that It decrease the weapon weight, I want It for be able to use a longsword (for example) with weapon finesse.

Also If you guys please, can give me more directions with this build I will apreciate  thanks a lot.

[Arkalezth]

Monkey Grip doesn't "reduce the weight" of a weapon, except in the case of rapiers and small races, but that's more a bug than anything else.

If you want a ranger but want other skills, you can just multiclass with another class (maybe bard or rogue) and take the feat Able Learner. Stealth is just one possible way of playing a ranger, but no one forces you to play that way.

My advice is to go STR based, since defenses are similar to a DEX build as long as you wear armor and don't have uber DEX (28+), but damage will be way better. Maybe I can link you some build, but I'd need more details, like what level do you intend to finish at (since this is the SoZ forum, I assume you want to play it on SoZ?), etc.

This is a typical pure ranger. Normally a bit of multiclassing is advisable, but it's a start: http://nwn2db.com/build/?117910

[Arkalezth]

Double post.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 09 octobre 2012 - 04:01 .

[Dann-J]

You'll never get weapon finesse to work with weapons that aren't listed in the feat description. It's a pity mithral weapons aren't considered a size category less, like mithral armour is.

For a strength-based dual-wielder you'd be better off playing as a pure fighter. The bonus feats fighters get make up for the loss of the 'free' ranger feats. If you play as a human then you get an extra feat at character creation as well. You'll have to have at least DEX 15 to take two-weapon fighting as a fighter, but after character creation you'll never have to add to dexterity again. Then you can armour up as much as you like.

Weapon focus / specialisation feats will help to offset the dual-wielding attack penalties, as will using a shortsword in the offhand. A katana or bastard sword in the main hand will help to maximise damage.

I played MotB with a dual-wielding fighter / weapon master / black guard, with a katana in one hand and the dream dagger in the other. The sheer number of attacks per round he had at epic levels turned him into a veritable mincing machine. That actually made it hard to collect spirit essences for crafting, since enemies tended to die too quickly.

[Arkalezth]

DannJ wrote...
You'll have to have at least DEX 15 to take two-weapon fighting as a fighter, but after character creation you'll never have to add to dexterity again. Then you can armour up as much as you like.

That's how it worked in NWN1, but not in NWN2. You need 15 for TWF, 17 for Improved, 19 for Greater, and 25 for Perfect.

[William Zeo]

Thanks everyone, I liked a lot of your build Ark, I had one saved:

http://nwn2db.com/build/?11954

The STR version have practically the same feats, only those that you cannot get with low dex of course was changed for others that I don't remember right now lol, the weapon focus can be something else, I really hate rapiers and falchions (sorry). Since I never finished a campaign I don't know what favored enemies I should take, but I do find a lot of humans and undead.

[Dann-J]

Arkalezth wrote...

DannJ wrote...
You'll have to have at least DEX 15 to take two-weapon fighting as a fighter, but after character creation you'll never have to add to dexterity again. Then you can armour up as much as you like.

That's how it worked in NWN1, but not in NWN2. You need 15 for TWF, 17 for Improved, 19 for Greater, and 25 for Perfect.

Those extra feats aren't really worth it for a strength-based fighter. All they do is increase the number of attacks your off-hand weapon can make (at a significant penalty until you get to 'perfect'). It's not like they decrease the attack penalties any further below -2/-2 with a small/tiny off-hand weapon, which would make them much more attractive options.

Fighters get plenty of attacks per round as they advance anyway, due to their high BAB progression. Another one or two attacks is neither here nor there, given that your off-hand weapon will most likely be small or tiny.

Even if you're specifically aiming for the 'perfect' feat, by the time you're at epic levels and can take it, your extra attacks are pretty much over-kill. My epic-level fighter / weapon master / black guard took nothing more than the first two-weapon feat, and had so many attacks per round anyway that the character model couldn't animate fast enough to represent them all.

The only circumstance I can think of where the extra off-hand attacks from the other two-weapon feats are essential is for a dexterity fighter using two light weapons and weapon finesse. With less damage per hit (lighter weapon, smaller STR bonus), more attacks per round become desirable. For a strength fighter with a medium-sized main-hand weapon, the occasional off-hand hit is just the icing on the cake.

Modifié par DannJ, 10 octobre 2012 - 03:35 .

[Arkalezth]

And what's dual wielding about anyway, if not about extra attacks (well, and maybe looking cool)? If you're going to dual wield, do it well. Otherwise, it's just not worth it. A shield can increase your AC a lot, whereas there's almost no difference between 6 or 7 attacks per round.

Perfect is hard to achieve so ranger is the only real option if you want it while being STR based, but 19 DEX is not really a big sacrifice for a number of races, so if you're going to dual wield, you should go for at least Greater (unless you are not going to reach a high enough level, of course). If you don't, you'll be better off with a shield.

Again, it also depends on where you're going to play it. MotB and its +8, +15d6 elemental weapons can make any kind of character a killing machine, regardless of how well built it is.

[Arkalezth]

William Zeo wrote...

Thanks everyone, I liked a lot of your build Ark, I had one saved:

http://nwn2db.com/build/?11954

The STR version have practically the same feats, only those that you cannot get with low dex of course was changed for others that I don't remember right now lol, the weapon focus can be something else, I really hate rapiers and falchions (sorry). Since I never finished a campaign I don't know what favored enemies I should take, but I do find a lot of humans and undead.

Well, I have seen worse, but that's not really a good build. First of all, as I said, I find DEX melee a waste on rangers (unless maybe if you're PvPing or something), specially if you're not interested on stealth, and other classes, like rogues, are better at it. The level split isn't good either, as fighter levels should always be even, and NW9 doesn't add much after level 3.

This is a good example of a fairly standard ranger with a bit of multiclassing. It gets HiPS, but I guess you can pass on it if you're not interested. Some details, like race and such, can be changed as well: http://nwn2db.com/build/?19241

[Dann-J]

I've fooled around with monk / ranger builds, using two kamas and flurry of blows. I'm not sure it really compares to a strength-based unarmed monk at higher levels though, since the kama damage doesn't increase like the unarmed damage does. It certainly looks cool though (which is the most important thing).

[Nilator]

I started out as a Rouge this time. When I was about 8 level and could open any Chest. I Multiclass to a Duelist. I used 2 Rapiers. With a High Dex & Tumbling you can almost avoid any attack and Duelist gain AC when they level up. So, I keep my Duelist Garbs forever. After that I exported him to MOTB and Multiclass again to Neverwinter Nine. After that I Multiclass to a Barbarian. So. I was four class's with all of the Feat's that come with each class. I enhanced both Rapier's with Keen and of course other Enhancements. This Fighter was the Bada&* of all that I have played with. I think Dex & Tumbling & a high Fortitude. Make the best fighters.

[Arkalezth]

In short: no. Can you own the OC/MotB with such a character? Definitely, as with pretty much any other type. But what you mention isn't really a good build, let alone the "best" at anything.

[Nilator]

I started out as a Rouge. Not because I wanted too. I just wanted to be able to open chest and not have to have Rouge in my party. Not the best way to start a build of a Fighter. But Foe Hammer wound up being the best fighter I have ever had. That was the forth time I have played the first 2 campaigns. On SOZ now. Not my favorite. But fun in it's own way. Like they say in Tai Chi. The best offense is a defense.
If you had to build a fighter starting from the OC. What would this fighter be at end of the MOTB. I mean Race, class's. What fighting style. What Weapon/Armor Proficiencies,Feats,Skills,class Abilities etc?

[Arkalezth]

Well, you can complete it with any kind of character (specially if you craft), but if I was going to play the OC with a meleer, I'd probably go with a frenzied berserker. Something like this: http://nwn2db.com/build/?89573

[Dann-J]

Arkalezth wrote...

In short: no. Can you own the OC/MotB with such a character? Definitely, as with pretty much any other type. But what you mention isn't really a good build, let alone the "best" at anything.

There's something to be said about playing with deliberately flawed characters, especially with the OC being such a cake-walk. At least they provide a challenge. The game Arcanum provided you with several deliberately flawed character traits, and encouraged you to try playing with then as an added challenge to the game. There was even an entire second set of conversation responses just for characters with extremely low intelligence scores.

The most important thing about any game is that it's fun. If you get bogged down in detailed character builds planned out in advance then you're not really 'playing' the game - you're harvesting experience to reach the next pre-defined stage in your character's development.

Although I do like to plan what prestige class a character will take, once I achieve the minimum requirements I pretty much wing it from there. Sometimes I luck onto something effective, and sometimes I find my character stuck with a flaw that I have to compensate for. I prefer not knowing how my character is going to turn out. I consider the development of the player character as much of a story as the one written into the game's plot - and who really wants to know what's on the last page when the story begins?

[Arkalezth]

You're missing my point. I'm not discussing about what's fun.There's a difference between playing a character for fun, and writing on a forum about X being mechanically the best at Y, when that's objectively not true.

Nilator might have had fun with his DEX based rogue/barbarian/duelist/NW9 wielding two rapiers, and that's great, but is that a mechanically good character? Hell no.

DannJ wrote...

The most important thing about any game is that it's fun. If you get bogged down in detailed character builds planned out in advance then you're not really 'playing' the game - you're harvesting experience to reach the next pre-defined stage in your character's development.

How is one thing preventing the other? They're totally unrelated. If you don't like to plan a character, by all means, don't do so, but you can perfectly plan a character, more or less thoroughly, while fully enjoying everything the game has to offer. Besides, fun is subjective. Maybe you enjoy playing gimped characters knowlingly, but others enjoy planning them to be good. I don't see that as an "evil" thing.

But again, that's far from being my point. To sum up, if you're going to give advice regarding some objective fact like game mechanics, make sure that your advice is good. Otherwise, you're just confusing people.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 18 octobre 2012 - 11:36 .

[Nilator]

Honestly we will never know. Because the Meleer's with build during a campaign are never going to due combat against each other. So, you cannot say one fighter is better then another. I was just putting my two cents in on a simple conversion. I do not think anybody can say a Str based Fighter is better then a Dex based. In my other Campaigns I always built a Str based Meleer. For some reason this time around. This Fighter was the best one I built thru the 2 Campaigns. I did so much Enchanting will my party members. That for the first time. I played on the very difficult level. By the end Foe Hammer was Level 30 with like 24 str, 28 dex, 24 con and of course a ton of Feats. He also ended up with like 513 hitpoints. His Critical hits and Sneak attacks were the ticket. In the long run no one can say which is the best Meleer. They are only speculating.

[Arkalezth]

What? Of course there are better and worse builds. Actually, weren't you the one who said that "Dex & Tumbling & a high Fortitude make the best fighters"? Anyway, I'm not comparing a build vs each other (though that could be done too, and some would also be clearly better than others in that scenario). I'm comparing each build vs the enemies you're going to face.

I don't feel like writing a wall of text about something that is common knowledge, but just as an example, sneak attacks aren't that good in the OC because of the heavy undead population (since they're immune to sneak attacks), whereas a STR based meleer won't have that problem. As I said, that's just an example. I could mention the heavy penalties from dual wielding medium weapons, the lack of synergy between classes, the lack of a reliable method to land sneak attacks, etc.

I don't want to sound rude, but frankly, you don't sound like someone who knows much about NWN2's mechanics. If you had fun with that character, good for you, but it's not something to recommend. If you don't believe me, well... There's not much I can do about that.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 20 octobre 2012 - 09:24 .