349 réponses à ce sujet

[Morty Smith]

I think the story of an RPG should only be as long, as the gameplay can shoulder it. Many RPG stories fall flat for me, because all I do in between is not nearly as imaginative and fun. And at worst predictably repetitive.

A great ressource management system, crafting and suprising gameplay elements can be a great help in that regard and can also enhance the playtime amd the enjoyment of it.

DA2 was too long, because it had one card up it´s sleeve and that was it´s combat. And it wasn´t an Ace.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Todd23 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Did you just-
Did you just say-

Do you even know-
Are you some kind of-


No, forget it.

Yes, I was silly and effectively playing a game and only much after the fact did I realize I didn't really enjoy any of the time I haev spent in game! Don't judge!

That was me3 for alot of people.

The thing is with ME3 it was really enjoyable right up till the last 5 minutes then they proceeded to ruin everything that came before.

Thus Bioware proved you can ruin an entire franchise with bad story writing.

[aridor1570]

Todd23 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Did you just-
Did you just say-

Do you even know-
Are you some kind of-


No, forget it.

Yes, I was silly and effectively playing a game and only much after the fact did I realize I didn't really enjoy any of the time I haev spent in game! Don't judge!

That was me3 for alot of people.

But that's not the point, the time and content up until the ending (minus the tacked on fetch quests) was excellent, you can't nullify that fact because of 5 minutes of bad content.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It could be that people enjoy the content more for the potential it promises while you're playing it. If that potential isn't realised, then future playthroughs might seem pointless (and even the first might seem pointless in hindsight).

Different people enjoy different things for different reasons.

[AlanC9]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

And that's the thing. We ask Bio for 50 hours of gameplay, but don't say what's an acceptable tradeoff to get there. And they do...... what?

It is not asking for a 50 hours of bad gameplay, it is asking for 50 hours of great gameplay compared to 20 hours of great gameplay. It is not your job to decide what is or is not possible, that is their job to see if it is possible. If it is not then so be it, produce a great game with as much great content as they can and if they only can produce a 20 hour great game then such is life but you don't tell them not to bother trying to make a bigger and better game. Thats just silly.

I still don't know what Bio's supposed to take away from that. So, Bio's supposed to make as long a game as they can once they get the gameplay quality up to "great" -- whatever that means. As opposed to ... pocketing the rest of the development money? Giving it back to EA? Throwing a really big party? Spending money on making the gameplay better than "great"?

If anything, it sounds like you're prioritizing great gameplay over length here.

[upsettingshorts]

In shocking news today the BioWare Social Network requested more content.

[JamieCOTC]

If you want to talk about fun level, let's talk about fetch quests. They're not fun. ME3 did a little bit better job on them that DA2, but they still all felt like filler. I understand you need high peaks and low valleys in a story, but fetch quests aren't fun. I recently completed KOTOR2 in just under 30 hours and it was great, it felt right in length and I had a lot of fun w/ it despite some oddities. By contrast both DA2 and ME3 both felt too short for the stories they were trying to tell, but time may not have been the issue. The DA2 story felt very lacking and I wonder if the fetch quests had been eliminated in place of something meatier if it would had felt more complete. In essence time may not be the issue but rather content may the the crux of the problem and why these games feel so short and lacking.

[Wulfram]

Fetch quests can be fun if you connect them to interesting characters, and maybe add some sort of choice at the end of it - who do you end up giving the item to?

They can also serve as a way of delivering a bit of needed exposition, or simply getting the player from A to B.

[Scott Sion]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In shocking news today the BioWare Social Network requested more content.

...for a game that hasn't even been released yet.

Modifié par plnero, 11 octobre 2012 - 06:41 .

[axl99]

Until you guys yourselves can make a AAA RPG with 50 hours of "quality gameplay" without artificially lengthening it by the following:

- level/skill grinding
- forcing players to travel long distances at a turtle's pace [because the game is busy streaming the next area]
- doing random generated sidequests with diminishing returns
- long cinematic/dialogue cutscenes 

You got nothing.

Modifié par axl99, 11 octobre 2012 - 07:20 .

[Pelle6666]

And that should be the plot mind you, meaningless side quests should not be included in that time.

[axl99]

Wow. Armchair gameplay designers. The lot of you

[Masha Potato]

I don't know. It's just SO SAD when the game ends. Longer campaign distances me from the inevitable post-ending existencial crysis

[spirosz]

I don't know, Slender Shepard the RPG, was only about 1 hour long, yet so much quality that it's really hard to take in; A,B,C ending, multiple branches in the story, from Slender gaining weight, LOSING IT ALL. Choices, where gaming does it best!

[Persephone]

Pelle6666 wrote...

And that should be the plot mind you, meaningless side quests should not be included in that time.

Then DAO does not qualify.

[Kail Ashton]

lol what? 40+ hours isn't enough? it has to be SPECIFICLY 50 hours? lol what a pointlessly anal thing to bring up and this somehow gets 10 pages? 10 PAGES!?!? my god people, just...my god!

[Allan Schumacher]

Wulfram wrote...

I see no evidence of this applying in Bioware games.  BG2 is crazy long and crazy good.  DA:O is generally considered to be longer than DA2, and also generally considered superior.  Jade Empire is short and generally considered Bioware's least successful game before DA2.  ME2 is probably the longest of the mass effect games - though not by a huge amount - and also the best received.

A lot of people would consider Mass Effect or Knights of the Old Republic to be BioWare's best game (I prefer KOTOR over BG2 and DAO too) and it's a much shorter game than the original BG2 I find.


I'd say that ME1 was a longer game than ME2 as well (but it's close), especially if you did all of the planet exploration.

[g99]

DonSwingKing wrote...

I don't know who came up with this standard, but it worked for years. Since Bioware decided to halve it with Mass Effect, other RPGs followed. While DAO offered this amount of content even whitout DLC, Dragon Age 2 was way too short even whit the DLC. In my opinion a good RPG story needs time. The word epic actually means "long story". I want a story of epic proportions. I can see why some people might disagree with me, but i would rather abandon non linearity for more actual playtime.

What are your thoughts?

I don't agree. Look at some good RPG's... The Elder Scrolls are more or less 100 h games if not more, older jRPG are as well longer that 50 h. I hope next Dragon Age will be around 60 to 70 h long. Origins was around 70 for me (the Ultimate Edition). But the longer the better is not the best solution as well. I don't want a 500 h story RPG I'll get lost in such experience.
P.S. It's the repeatability that really counts. Let see the same story in 4 to 7 ways.

Modifié par g99, 11 octobre 2012 - 08:07 .

[merylisk]

I got around 50 hours out of every Mass Effect game, I dunno what you guys are talking about.

ME1 - 48
ME2 - 53
ME3 - 49

edit: And that's including all DLC and 100% exploration.

Modifié par merylisk, 11 octobre 2012 - 08:11 .

[Wulfram]

Gamelengths.com, a website which allows people to input their playtimes gives average lengths of

KotOR: 39 hours and 14 minutes (only 6 play times)
Jade Empire: 29 hours and 25 minutes (only 3 play times)
Mass Effect: 32 hours and 20 minutes
ME2: 39 hours and 42 minutes
ME3: 30 hours and 57 minutes
DAO: 72 hours and 1 minutes
DA2: 41 hours and 30 minutes

[DarkKnightHolmes]

aridor1570 wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Did you just-
Did you just say-

Do you even know-
Are you some kind of-


No, forget it.

Yes, I was silly and effectively playing a game and only much after the fact did I realize I didn't really enjoy any of the time I haev spent in game! Don't judge!

That was me3 for alot of people.

But that's not the point, the time and content up until the ending (minus the tacked on fetch quests) was excellent, you can't nullify that fact because of 5 minutes of bad content.

No ME3 wasn't "excellent". Autodialogue, blatant railroading, extremely awful journal (don't bring that to DA, please), forced emotions and poor side quests was the majority of ME3 for me.

[emeraldtrader]

DAO takes F-O-R-E-V-E-R...but then it's over so quickly

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

A lot of people would consider Mass Effect or Knights of the Old Republic to be BioWare's best game (I prefer KOTOR over BG2 and DAO too) and it's a much shorter game than the original BG2 I find.

I personally prefer the original BG, which is perhaps half the size of BG2.

And I would rank NWN and KotOR as of roughly similar quality, despite their disparate lengths.

But the point raised was one of general perception.  Overall, the longer games do seem to be better received.

I'd say that ME1 was a longer game than ME2 as well (but it's close), especially if you did all of the planet exploration.

I think ME2 becomes longer again if you fully scan every planet (as I did).

That said, I prefer ME to ME2.

[Morty Smith]

axl99 wrote...

Until you guys yourselves can make a AAA RPG with 50 hours of "quality gameplay" without artificially lengthening it by the following:

- level/skill grinding
- forcing players to travel long distances at a turtle's pace [because the game is busy streaming the next area]
- doing random generated sidequests with diminishing returns
- long cinematic/dialogue cutscenes 

You got nothing.

That´s right and until you guys can´t build your own cars you also should not ask for improved handling and sound engines. Don´t even think about beeing entitled to confort.

You monsters.

<3

Modifié par Kroitz, 11 octobre 2012 - 08:51 .

[spirosz]

Wulfram wrote...

I see no evidence of this applying in Bioware games.  BG2 is crazy long and crazy good.  DA:O is generally considered to be longer than DA2, and also generally considered superior.  Jade Empire is short and generally considered Bioware's least successful game before DA2.  ME2 is probably the longest of the mass effect games - though not by a huge amount - and also the best received.

Jade Empire is one of my favourite games, yet only 20-30 hours, KOTOR again, 20-30 hours, ME2 about 50 w/ the mining.  Hours have nothing to do with how good a game can be, IMO.