349 réponses à ce sujet

[Maclimes]

Also, a good game does not always equal a successful game. Jade Empire, though perhaps not financially successful, was one of my favorite Bioware games (just behind KOTOR and DAO).

[spirosz]

Maclimes wrote...

Also, a good game does not always equal a successful game. Jade Empire, though perhaps not financially successful, was one of my favorite Bioware games (just behind KOTOR and DAO).

Word.  Lots of people praise Alpha Protocal, even though it's not seen as a "successful game", as many other games - Enslaved is another example I can think of, but again, that all comes down to the individual. 

[Wozearly]

Wulfram wrote...

Fetch quests can be fun if you connect them to interesting characters, and maybe add some sort of choice at the end of it - who do you end up giving the item to?

They can also serve as a way of delivering a bit of needed exposition, or simply getting the player from A to B.

Completely agreed.

Fetch quests are not inherantly better or worse than the likes of "Go kill (n) number of (monstertype)", "Talk to (NPC) and get him to agree to (thing I want)", "Collect (n) of (ingredient type)", "Give me (x) gold for (insert purpose here)".

The problem is how they're implemented and used. In my opinion, Bioware have historically struck a good balance with the apparently banal side quests that turn out to be something very unexpected (the orphanage in the Denerim Alienage in DA:O is, IMO, the best standalone example of this from the DA series), and the side-quests that cast a moral decision into your character's path, against the actually banal side quests that nonetheless fit in the setting, encourage you to spend a bit more time in a location and reveal more about the world.

Yes, they're pure filler / XP / loot fodder, but allowing / encouraging the player to slow down the story progression has a useful narrative effect, particularly if you don't want that section to feel like its rushing towards a conclusion. When it is, you just let it roll (the reason you never find sidequests just before a boss).

Where they're problematic is when they break immersion, or don't seem to naturally fit in. DA:O's chanters board (and similar) quests fitted with the setting. It did require suspension of disbelief at those odd times you had the Warden haring halfway across Ferelden to hand in minor quest, but the random encounters helped stop the zoning being a blatant time-sink.

DA2's "you've picked up some bizarre object that can't be sold to a vendor, but let me psychically mark on your map who will pay you for it" was completely daft. Not only did it jar with the setting and make no logical sense, it didn't even help establish a feel for the game in the same way that the chanter quests did.

In any long RPG there's going to be a bit of filler content, I think people accept that...but how its implemented makes a huge difference. If Bioware were a shedton less liberal with use of the fetch quests in comparison to DA2, and integrated them into the setting a bit more cleanly, that would be a step in the right direction.

[Wulfram]

spirosz wrote...

Jade Empire is one of my favourite games, yet only 20-30 hours, KOTOR again, 20-30 hours, ME2 about 50 w/ the mining.  Hours have nothing to do with how good a game can be, IMO.

Since the assertion I was disputing was the shorter games were better, I guess we agree,

[spirosz]

Wulfram wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Jade Empire is one of my favourite games, yet only 20-30 hours, KOTOR again, 20-30 hours, ME2 about 50 w/ the mining.  Hours have nothing to do with how good a game can be, IMO.

Since the assertion I was disputing was the shorter games were better, I guess we agree,

I personally don't care how long a game is, but I guess those examples work.  When I go into a game, I don't go in saying "Hey, I hope this will be 50+ hours", I go in saying "I hope I have a great freaking time, regardless if it's 5 hours, 50 hours, etc."  It depends on the game as well, plus I don't think every RPG should live up to being hours and hours of gameplay.  That may not always be a great thing for a specific game that  the developers want to make.

I want to finish a game with a smile on my face and wanting to play it again, I think that's all that matters. 

[Wozearly]

Maclimes wrote...

Also, a good game does not always equal a successful game. Jade Empire, though perhaps not financially successful, was one of my favorite Bioware games (just behind KOTOR and DAO).

I liked Jade Empire. It was...interesting to see Bioware taking on something so different.

Even if it wasn't even close to being in the same league as DA:O or KOTOR (in my opinion, of course).

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

Also, a good game does not always equal a successful game. Jade Empire, though perhaps not financially successful, was one of my favorite Bioware games (just behind KOTOR and DAO).

Jade Empire is probably my favourite action game of all time.

Either that or Bruce Lee.

[Wozearly]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Jade Empire is probably my favourite action game of all time.

Either that or Bruce Lee.

Heh.

I used to jokingly refer to Jade Empire as "Bioware's worst game", even though I liked it. The bar was set so freakishly high with everything else that they did that producing a game I liked, but that didn't cause me to rave about it to friends, was almost like a failure.

Then DA2 came along, and I saw what real failure looks like. I've been much less inclined to make teasing remarks about Jade Empire since then.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wozearly wrote...

I used to jokingly refer to Jade Empire as "Bioware's worst game", even though I liked it.

Prior to the voiced PC games, it was a fair description.

Jade Empire was really very good, but fell slightly short of the standard set by BG, BG2, NWN, and KotOR.

Though, we should probably measure Jade Empire against Shattered Steel to be sure.

[Dragoonlordz]

spirosz wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Jade Empire is one of my favourite games, yet only 20-30 hours, KOTOR again, 20-30 hours, ME2 about 50 w/ the mining.  Hours have nothing to do with how good a game can be, IMO.

Since the assertion I was disputing was the shorter games were better, I guess we agree,

I personally don't care how long a game is, but I guess those examples work.  When I go into a game, I don't go in saying "Hey, I hope this will be 50+ hours", I go in saying "I hope I have a great freaking time, regardless if it's 5 hours, 50 hours, etc."  It depends on the game as well, plus I don't think every RPG should live up to being hours and hours of gameplay.  That may not always be a great thing for a specific game that  the developers want to make.

I want to finish a game with a smile on my face and wanting to play it again, I think that's all that matters. 

I go into games expecting them to last a fair amount of time, I want that time to be filled enjoying the content. I would find a 5 hour game for £40 or $60 to be something I would avoid and never buy until the price of the game is around £5-£10 tops. So I do go into games and buy them hoping that I get 40, 50 or 60+ hours of great gameplay and enjoyment which also includes great replay value for my money. I want as much great content as possible that they can produce and if it is a very short game I have no interest regardless of how good it might be until it's retail price drops vastly because value for my money means more to me.

I wouldn't pay £40+ to see 5 hours long movie regardless of quality and the same applies to games. I expect a certain level of content for the amount I spend and it is my personal preference as to what that level is. I always wait till price drops on small games to reflect the level of time I will enjoy it. If they make a good 20 hour game I will wait till the price drops to around £20-£25, if they make a great 40+ hour game I will more likely spend £40 on it. That is my choice and my preference on how I wish to spend my money. I will always buy games that interest me but the length of time I will enjoy it potentially does impact how much I pay whether that means waiting till it's on sale or till the price drops over time.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 11 octobre 2012 - 11:48 .

[Il Divo]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Also feel free to define what is an "amazing" game exactly for those asking for meager 20 hour game, what features what story or amount of places in number or figures that such an "amazing" game should have for you? Bioware (imho) should produce the longest and best game they can.

Considering KotOR and Jade Empire are my favorite Bioware games, and neither is all that long,  I'm not going to ruin potential games in the future by demanding that Bioware meet some arbitrary game length. The title of this thread is itself crap. RPGs should not be 50 hours long. They should be however long they need to be in order to produce an effective narrative and ensure a satisfying experience, without being redundant. I'm not going to throw a fit that Bioware's next game is  shorter than normal if the overall product is better.

There is absolutely nothing unreasonable asking for a game that last 40-60 hours and is still a great game. There is however something wrong when you set your bar so low at 20 hours when they have shown as have many other developers that it is very possible to produce games in excess of 40-60 even 100 that are amazing or great games.

Name the game. Most of my favorite games broadly-speaking fall into the 10-30 hour mark, several Bioware games included. You see it as setting the bar low. I see it as a trend.

Most of Mass Effect's length came from artificially extending the length via terrible side-quests. I only wish those resources went into something more productive than simply increasing my game time.

I believe that long games can still be good games. I do not believe that making a game longer by definition makes it better, whether because it takes resources away from other things (Mass Effect) or because it feels like the experience is dragging on (DA:O Deep Roads and Broken Circle).

Are those asking for 20 hours worth so damaged with their expectations and hopes that they set the bar so low even an indie dev could reach it? I know the fanbase has taken a few knocks in the past here but wow... To have such low expectations and hopes here is shocking, sorry but I will hope for a lot more than those because I know Bioware are capable of doing a lot better.

Bioware did their best at KotOR, which topped out at 30-something hours for me. Why should I hope for longer when their best game took me about half as long to complete than DA:O?

I don't care about length, I care about overall entertainment factor.

Edit: Hell, look at Dishonored for a recent example. I finished my first playthrough at about 15-18 hours and it was fantastic, better than other, longer games I've played.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 octobre 2012 - 11:54 .

[Fortlowe]

A 50+ hour narrative? Even counting side quests, these days that's asking a lot. Don't get me wrong, I'd be grateful to have it, as long as it's compelling the whole way through, but I'm expecting more like 30+. Maybe 40+ with DLC.

One way to stretch it out and keep me coming back would be some kind of perpetual combat theater. Like The Provings, or the Deep Roads, or The Wilds (edit: how they should have been in DA:O IMO). Somewhere I can take my party and and go up against perpetually available, randomly generated and kitted enemies and mini bosses. I wouldn't even need XP or even loot drops unless it could be done with spoiling the economy. Just give me a place I can take my fully evolved and kitted inquisitor other than the final boss.

Modifié par Fortlowe, 11 octobre 2012 - 11:53 .

[upsettingshorts]

I think Jade Empire is BioWare's most underrated game.

It's also by far the funniest.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't recall humour at all.

[fainmaca]

Quality should come first, but quantity should not be dismissed, either.

E.G. Just finished playing Jade Empire for the first time yesterday. I loved what was there, but it still felt too... small. The content was brilliantly done in my opinion, with characters that took a hold of me in a surprising way. But when you reach the end, looking back it feels as if we saw very little of this world they were meant to be showing us. I mean, once you hit Imperial City I was expecting that to be like Dantooine in KOTOR or the Citadel in ME, a jumping off point to explore an array of different areas where you accomplish objectives contributing to the central plot. Imagine my surprise when I got through the necropolis and realised that the endgame sequence followed on pretty much straight afterwards.

Same thing applies to any game. You might go through it in 20-30 hours (like I do with KOTOR, and I'm thorough), but you need to feel like you've seen a lot in the adventure. With an RPG, you need to feel like you've explored a lot and learned much about the universe your character lives in.

For the record, JE took me 29 hours, and I think I missed some stuff. KOTOR takes me 25 hours (and I know I'm getting everything after this many playthroughts). ME1 takes me 32 hours, ME2 takes me close to 60 hours (that's with minimal scanning, just enough for the upgrades, and that includes all DLC), and my only PT of ME3 took me 30 hours. As RPGs, I would rank them as follows: ME2 first, KOTOR second, ME1 third, JE fourth, and ME3 fifth. This ranking is based on two things: how much they allowed me to immerse myself in the character presented, and how invested in the universe they made me feel.

[AsheraII]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'd say that ME1 was a longer game than ME2 as well (but it's close), especially if you did all of the planet exploration.

You mean.. There's actually people who did NOT explore every single planet hoping to find things not (yet) listed by any of the guides?

[Knight of Dane]

Completionist Playthroughs ME:
ME1: 48 hrs
ME2: 52 hrs
ME3: 45 hrs
First playthrough DA
DA:O: 32 hrs
DA2 29 hrs
Standard time, completionist after having memorized everything in the games (i think)
DA:O 26 hrs
DA2: 25 hrs

[Scott Sion]

AsheraII wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'd say that ME1 was a longer game than ME2 as well (but it's close), especially if you did all of the planet exploration.

You mean.. There's actually people who did NOT explore every single planet hoping to find things not (yet) listed by any of the guides?

I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.

[Fortlowe]

plnero wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'd say that ME1 was a longer game than ME2 as well (but it's close), especially if you did all of the planet exploration.

You mean.. There's actually people who did NOT explore every single planet hoping to find things not (yet) listed by any of the guides?

I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.

^This. Except it was already an awesome feature. Really added some scope and wonder to that game that was missing in the next two.

[Scott Sion]

Fortlowe wrote...

plnero wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'd say that ME1 was a longer game than ME2 as well (but it's close), especially if you did all of the planet exploration.

You mean.. There's actually people who did NOT explore every single planet hoping to find things not (yet) listed by any of the guides?

I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.

^This. Except it was already an awesome feature. Really added some scope and wonder to that game that was missing in the next two.

I didn't mean to say that it wasn't an amazing feature, I only meant that with a little polish some of the small things that annoyed people could have been taken care of.

[Sylvius the Mad]

plnero wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

plnero wrote...

I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.

^This. Except it was already an awesome feature. Really added some scope and wonder to that game that was missing in the next two.

I didn't mean to say that it wasn't an amazing feature, I only meant that with a little polish some of the small things that annoyed people could have been taken care of.

I think the Mako was brilliant as it was, frankly.  There's almost nothing I would change about the planet exploration in ME.

In fact, I think the change to planet geography we saw in BDtS was a change for the worse.  BDtS offered a much smoother and gentler landscape to drive around, and that was far less interesting.

[Get Magna Carter]

A story-based RPG should be the length for the player to get from the beginning of the story to the end without rushing or boring bits. Not all stories are the same length.Some should be 20 hours others should be 100 hours.
(Bethsheda RPGs are primarily exploration based so follow different rules)

[Henioo]

I think it took me over 50 hours to beat the first MAss Effect. But then, it was my first shooter-like kind of game, so it added to the time the combat took me, and so on.

DA:O took me about the same time, or longer even. Again, my first RPG on a console.

Being more experienced, I beat DA2 and ME3 in about three to four days, whereas ME1 and DA:O took me over a week.

[ColGali]

M25105 wrote...

50 hours is a minimum to be honest. It's a singleplayer game after all.

Exactly