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RPGs should be 50 hours long.


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#276
Allan Schumacher

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plnero wrote...

I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.



The problem for me is that it started to get repetitive, and contrasted with the excellent crit path I found it started to slag on.  I did a lot of those planets, but ultimately moved on and I know there are ones I didn't do.

#277
Uccio

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RPG should be 100h long, atleast.

#278
Sylvius the Mad

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

plnero wrote...

I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.



The problem for me is that it started to get repetitive, and contrasted with the excellent crit path I found it started to slag on.  I did a lot of those planets, but ultimately moved on and I know there are ones I didn't do.

Whereas, I thought the Mako was just fun to drive for its own sake.  I would return to planets I'd already completed because I enjoyed launching myself around their topography.

#279
TheImmortalBeaver

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I love it when games have tons of extra features, but I honestly don't care for critical paths that are 50 hours long. I generally don't have time to play games that long anymore.

#280
vswiss23

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Dragon Age 3 should have a minimum of 100 hours. I enjoy getting immersed into a game, and spending an entire weekend playing it with very little sleep.

#281
wrdnshprd

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if you look at most JRPGs they are close to 50 hours, but its not because they are super filled with story content.. in fact, a lot of JRPGs (not all), have a terrible story, but usually extremely good gameplay. also, a lot of the hours in the game is spent grinding levels, getting better gear, gathering crafting mats, doing side quests, etc. and you know the crazy thing?? some of us actually find that fun.

the problem with recent bioware titles is, i think they have gotten away from that. if you look at ME1, there was tons of gear. granted, the inventory system was atrocious in that game.. but at least there was a sense that you could really customize your character stats the way you wanted.

with ME2, they pretty much eliminated that aspect, and, in my opinion waayy oversimplified things. did the inventory and gear system need to be streamlined a bit? absolutely. but did it need to get removed almost completely? absolutely not. and unfortunately, thats what bioware did.

ME3 brought us back a little bit, but i still think there is something missing. some of us "RPG Nerds" actually LIKE micro-management and grinding for mats to make that really cool weapon. and tbh, if the combat system is fun enough, we would have no problem grinding to max level before completing the game.

i think that is what some are referring to when we say "RPGs should be 50 hours in length".

just give us our micro-management stuff back, make stats important again, and i think people will be happy. you guys had great systems in ME1 and DAO. did some of it needed to be cleaned up a bit? absolutely.. but there is a difference between cleaning up the systems, and making them completely irrelevant.

Modifié par wrdnshprd, 16 octobre 2012 - 09:35 .


#282
ImperatorMortis

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"Fifty" hours?

Make it a hundred, and call me in the morning.

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 octobre 2012 - 09:42 .


#283
Morroian

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vswiss23 wrote...

Dragon Age 3 should have a minimum of 100 hours.


So longer than DA2 and DAO then.

#284
Guest_Imperium Alpha_*

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This is why there is no more 50 hours games and the few that still do JRPG in general are tediously bad.

Modifié par Imperium Alpha, 16 octobre 2012 - 09:57 .


#285
Liyros

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Length is important to an extent, but what is the most important (in my opinion of course) is the meat of the game. Too short and the price should take a drop because I'm not getting the whole package.

Anyways, enough of that. The two most recent Bioware games should have taken longer (again, imo). Ohh, thre is DLC I suppose, but my problem is the initial game and whether or not it feels complete.

#286
Swagger7

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Personally, I'd rather a game like DA3 have more replayability than length, so I can go back through multiple times with different character concepts.

#287
ImperatorMortis

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Its an RPG, the game needs to be long. We're not talking about an adventure game or a shooter here.

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 octobre 2012 - 10:19 .


#288
Sylvius the Mad

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Imperium Alpha wrote...

This is why there is no more 50 hours games and the few that still do JRPG in general are tediously bad.

Games made pre-2000 were often bigger and cheaper to make, but somehow didn't take any longer.

The goalposts have moved.  I suggest moving them back.

#289
PaulSX

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since BioWare is making story-driven games, I would like 25~30 hours main quests and maybe 10~20 hours side quests. I think devs should avoid tedious main story because it will make players bored quickly.

#290
AlanC9

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

plnero wrote...

I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.


The problem for me is that it started to get repetitive, and contrasted with the excellent crit path I found it started to slag on.  I did a lot of those planets, but ultimately moved on and I know there are ones I didn't do.


I had a somewhat different take from these. I liked running around on the planets just fine, and even searching out mineral deposits and whatnot. Very much like Starflight, which was maybe my first CRPG. (Anyone know how long that one takes to play? It's been a while)

My problem was that running around on these planets felt like something from a different game. Wherever I'm gong to find Saren, it won't be anywhere near Depot Sigma-23. It felt like something bolted onto the narrative rather than an integral part of it. It didn't help that doing stuff for money only emphasized the irrationality of ME's economy.

By contrast, in Starflight random exploration was the mission, so this stuff wasn't a distraction from the real goals.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 octobre 2012 - 12:00 .


#291
Wozearly

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

This is why there is no more 50 hours games and the few that still do JRPG in general are tediously bad.

Games made pre-2000 were often bigger and cheaper to make, but somehow didn't take any longer.

The goalposts have moved.  I suggest moving them back.


Couching that in the Iron Triangle terms from Imperium Alpha's link, that's because post-2000 games have allowed expanded cost in order to allow greater quality, but with the focus on quality tending to be graphical performance or far greater audio scope (e.g. fully voiced NPCs and PCs).

With lower standards for both audio and graphics, games like the original Fallout could create a particularly expansive game world, because the marginal cost of adding one more section was a darn sight lower than it would be with flashier graphics and audio layered on top.

The element of creating a game that is rewarding and entertaining via the gameplay mechanics has never stopped being a major focus in games, but its probably fair to say that perceptions of what will make a more engaging / better selling / wider appealing game has changed over time. The general trend has been towards appealing to the widest audience / lowest common denominator, and replicating the 'feel' of other successful games.

As action games and shooters with simple (and limited) mechanics have historically had greater success with a wider audience, its perhaps not too surprising that many developers have been moving steadily down the 'streamlining' approach.

That coment deserves an obligatory tip of the hat to Paradox Interactive and SI Games, who are consciously going the other way. If they do simplify something, they tend to introduce an expanded level of complexity somewhere else, and are coping with the "90 degree learning curve" problem through better tutorials, tooltips and greater accessibility of information within the game rather than simply axing anything seemingly complex.

On a related note to the cost/quality decisions, what interests me a lot is the recent trend of re-releasing past games. What began as studios rehashing things for smartphones - a market where you have the interesting combination of a low cost distribution platform, a low-cost game (far easier to recode for a new system and touch up graphics than create a new game from scratch), a market that expects low cost games, a platform that is more than capable of running the game and a past audience willing to buy the old game to replay it alongside a new audience that never played the original.

That's been creeping outside of the smartphone model more recently, what with Syndicate, Jagged Alliance 2 and X-Com all being reimagined for PC / console audiences. These are types of games that don't really appear on the market any more, which is an interesting twist. Granted, Syndicate and JA2 weren't the world's greatest remakes, but a number of industry commentators seem to be muttering that if X-Com does take off then it could trigger a rethink about whether the market for those types of games is larger than the currently accepted wisdom suggests.

Baldur's Gate is also going through a similar process. That's definitely going to be one to watch to see if it sends any challenges into the current thinking in RPGs, which appears to be "That's not the type of game we want to make / people want to play".

Modifié par Wozearly, 17 octobre 2012 - 12:02 .


#292
Il Divo

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AlanC9 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

plnero wrote...

I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.


The problem for me is that it started to get repetitive, and contrasted with the excellent crit path I found it started to slag on.  I did a lot of those planets, but ultimately moved on and I know there are ones I didn't do.


I had a somewhat different take from these. I liked running around on the planets just fine, and even searching out mineral deposits and whatnot. Very much like Starflight, which was maybe my first CRPG. (Anyone know how long that one takes to play? It's been a while)

My problem was that running around on these planets felt like something from a different game. Wherever I'm gong to find Saren, it won't be anywhere near Depot Sigma-23. It felt like something bolted onto the narrative rather than an integral part of it. It didn't help that doing stuff for money only emphasized the irrationality of ME's economy.

By contrast, in Starflight random exploration was the mission, so this stuff wasn't a distraction from the real goals.


It also didn't help that one of the huge appeals of Mass Effect was that it was designed as a cinematic RPG, which was decidedly not the case during any of the planet exploration missions. It was clear that none of the side missions were given anything close to the same level of attention as the main quest locations. 

#293
Fortlowe

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Il Divo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

plnero wrote...

I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.


The problem for me is that it started to get repetitive, and contrasted with the excellent crit path I found it started to slag on.  I did a lot of those planets, but ultimately moved on and I know there are ones I didn't do.


I had a somewhat different take from these. I liked running around on the planets just fine, and even searching out mineral deposits and whatnot. Very much like Starflight, which was maybe my first CRPG. (Anyone know how long that one takes to play? It's been a while)

My problem was that running around on these planets felt like something from a different game. Wherever I'm gong to find Saren, it won't be anywhere near Depot Sigma-23. It felt like something bolted onto the narrative rather than an integral part of it. It didn't help that doing stuff for money only emphasized the irrationality of ME's economy.

By contrast, in Starflight random exploration was the mission, so this stuff wasn't a distraction from the real goals.


It also didn't help that one of the huge appeals of Mass Effect was that it was designed as a cinematic RPG, which was decidedly not the case during any of the planet exploration missions. It was clear that none of the side missions were given anything close to the same level of attention as the main quest locations. 


I felt like the side quests were good. More than the sum of their parts. Landing, exploring, investigating  and engaging, if need be? Those small haunting little stories (and the subtle but marvelous touch of having an after action report) combined to give me the thrill of exploration that no other game had or has since been able to duplicate. It was a profoundly thrilling experience and I'd would like to see more of it.

To align this more with the topic, I'd say that since it is likely that our hero's title in DA3 will be 'Inquisitor' then investigation, deduction, and exploration would suit the character's purpose quite well. Thedas has an enormous world with a deep and intricate mythos. Threads connecting present time events could touch on histories that stretch back milennia. Sometimes these threads may lead to information the 'Inquisitor' may find useful and sometime they may lead to intruiging but unrelated ends, that still contribute (read expand) to the fabric of the Dragon Age narritve.

In much the same way Mass Effect used planets, Dragon age could use sections of the Deep Roads or the Wilds or  ancient Tevinter ruins as theaters for exploration. I've also put forward previously that the same settings could be used as places where perpetual in game combat oppurtunities (The Provings!) could be taken or even multiplayer arenas could be staged.

#294
legbamel

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

plnero wrote...
I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.

The problem for me is that it started to get repetitive, and contrasted with the excellent crit path I found it started to slag on.  I did a lot of those planets, but ultimately moved on and I know there are ones I didn't do.

Whereas, I thought the Mako was just fun to drive for its own sake.  I would return to planets I'd already completed because I enjoyed launching myself around their topography.

I'm another Mako geek.  I have tremendous fun seeing how steep a slope I can climb in it, from how far away I can kill off a geth turret, and just how much bounce I can handle before I damage a tire.  The mineral deposits were a bonus, as far as I was concerned.

Modifié par legbamel, 17 octobre 2012 - 02:30 .


#295
AlanC9

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Fortlowe wrote...

To align this more with the topic, I'd say that since it is likely that our hero's title in DA3 will be 'Inquisitor' then investigation, deduction, and exploration would suit the character's purpose quite well. 


Well, it might. Depends on how the main plot is structured. it certainly could be made to work if Bio wants to make it work.

#296
jillabender

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legbamel wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

plnero wrote...
I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.

The problem for me is that it started to get repetitive, and contrasted with the excellent crit path I found it started to slag on.  I did a lot of those planets, but ultimately moved on and I know there are ones I didn't do.

Whereas, I thought the Mako was just fun to drive for its own sake.  I would return to planets I'd already completed because I enjoyed launching myself around their topography.

I'm another Mako geek.  I have tremendous fun seeing how steep a slope I can climb in it, from how far away I can kill off a geth turret, and just how much bounce I can handle before I damage a tire.  The mineral deposits were a bonus, as far as I was concerned.


Oh god, the Mako – I love and hate it at the same time. The way it climbs steep slopes and always lands right-side-up when it falls is cool, but handling it is ungodly frustrating.

It probably wouldn't be such a pain if I was playing Mass Effect in Windows, but the mouse doesn't wrap the screen properly when I play it on my Mac using Wine, so I'm constantly fiddling with the mouse to get the camera to move inch by inch to face the way I want, so that I can see where I'm going. When I'm not in the Mako, it's less of a problem because I can hold down the spacebar and use the right mouse button to rotate the camera, but when I'm in the Mako – no such luck. :pinched:  It's a testament to how much I enjoy the game that I happily play it in spite of those difficulties!

Modifié par jillabender, 17 octobre 2012 - 04:02 .


#297
JerZey CJ

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Morroian wrote...

vswiss23 wrote...

Dragon Age 3 should have a minimum of 100 hours.


So longer than DA2 and DAO then.

Maybe it's just me, but i've had DA:O playthroughs that either go into, or just short of 100 hours. Maybe I'm just slow at games, I don't just sit there doing nothing, I do all of the sidequest at a decent pace and then the story missions. For a more recent example, when people had said that they had already beaten BL2, I was barely 1/3 into the game, and when people all started getting to level 50, I'm still only level 37.

#298
Thrillian

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JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

vswiss23 wrote...

Dragon Age 3 should have a minimum of 100 hours.


So longer than DA2 and DAO then.

Maybe it's just me, but i've had DA:O playthroughs that either go into, or just short of 100 hours. Maybe I'm just slow at games, I don't just sit there doing nothing, I do all of the sidequest at a decent pace and then the story missions. For a more recent example, when people had said that they had already beaten BL2, I was barely 1/3 into the game, and when people all started getting to level 50, I'm still only level 37.


Not just you. I have had DA:O playthroughs that are over 100 hours.  I also try to do every single sidequest and also goof around a bit in order to hear more party banter though.

#299
SpEcIaLRyAn

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JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

vswiss23 wrote...

Dragon Age 3 should have a minimum of 100 hours.


So longer than DA2 and DAO then.

Maybe it's just me, but i've had DA:O playthroughs that either go into, or just short of 100 hours. Maybe I'm just slow at games, I don't just sit there doing nothing, I do all of the sidequest at a decent pace and then the story missions. For a more recent example, when people had said that they had already beaten BL2, I was barely 1/3 into the game, and when people all started getting to level 50, I'm still only level 37.


Same here. I am almost 50 hours into my newest Origins playthrough and I only did the circle of magi and Redcliffe story missions. Just about to beat Orzammar and than I still have to do Urn of Sacred Ashes and Brecillian Forest. Than of course more sidequests as they become available.

#300
Ahglock

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AlanC9 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

plnero wrote...

I had a nerdgasm the first time I explored a planet in ME1, but I guess most people didn't like the feature. Most people just wanted to do the mission that the planet offered then leave. I think it had something to do with the mako being a pain in the ass.

Planet exploration wasn't perfect, but if they just touched it up a bit it could have been a really awesome feature.


The problem for me is that it started to get repetitive, and contrasted with the excellent crit path I found it started to slag on.  I did a lot of those planets, but ultimately moved on and I know there are ones I didn't do.


I had a somewhat different take from these. I liked running around on the planets just fine, and even searching out mineral deposits and whatnot. Very much like Starflight, which was maybe my first CRPG. (Anyone know how long that one takes to play? It's been a while)

My problem was that running around on these planets felt like something from a different game. Wherever I'm gong to find Saren, it won't be anywhere near Depot Sigma-23. It felt like something bolted onto the narrative rather than an integral part of it. It didn't help that doing stuff for money only emphasized the irrationality of ME's economy.

By contrast, in Starflight random exploration was the mission, so this stuff wasn't a distraction from the real goals.


I kind of agree.  While I loved the ME1 exploration it felt weird when you are in a race to find the conduit first or whatever.  I wonder what the problem part is though.  Is it the random quests or the plots where we are always in a race to save the X?   Why not more plots like early Farscape where you are more interested in escaping and surviving than gathering the seven samuari to defeat the bad guy? 

I don't know but I kind of think with biowares strengths being in characters design/development less standard action movie stories would complement them more.  Have a story that lets all those side missions and extra character development fit, take the long winding path and not the cliche michael bay like story.