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[Foolsfolly]

One of the things I've seen a lot on these forums both for DA and ME3 is a sentence like this "Will we get more closure?" In my very personal opinion what the fans are asking for isn't more closure just better endings.

Needing closure means that there is something vague and/or lacking about the central characters. Every ending to any story leaves something unsaid. You don't ever know what happens (outside of sequels) of the story. You can have ideas and maybe hopes but there's nothing concrete. This is the nature of endings.

I believe what these fans are trying to say is that they want the characters to earn their ending. Because I have the feeling this will be a huge wall of text I will break this up into various video games. I will try very hard to limit myself to BioWare examples because it's likely you're here because you liked at least one BioWare game and perhaps have tried other BioWare games as a result. Thus perhaps I can use examples many of you have played.

Dragon Age: Origins.

I hear the want for closure a lot for the Warden. Like, at least once a week. But this is, for the most part, a perfect example of how you should end a game. Regardless of origin or attitude, regardless of choice, the central conflict and driving force behind everything you do is 'Stop the Blight.'

This allowed the story to be focused even while it went out of its way to showcase as many cultures as possible and all the different parts of life in Ferelden. The endings are firmly focused on this problem.

You either die to save everyone and end the Blight, do the Dark Ritual to live past the Blight, or have Alistair or Loghain take he hit so you can live. Either way if you die you get the funeral where you see what your sacrifice has bought the world (and your family/clan/whatever). You see the affects of your actions and then see even more via epilogues. This is rather final and there's no ambiguity at all.

Then there are the endings where the Warden lives. There you get the Star Wars ending celebration where the king/queen gives you some nice words about your hero status and you get to meet up with everyone. During this you hear everyone's plans and even get a chance to say exactly with no uncertainity what your character has planned next.

Again this is really well done. The ending to Origins was one of the best parts of the game. Like all over the ending from the Dark Ritual with Loghain (who epically wants to think of his dead wife instead of Morrigan which made me want to high five him) to sacrificing my criminal selfish bastard Dwarven Commoner. It was just so well done.

No need for closure here. Extremely well done.

Dragon Age: Origins: Awakening.

Now we start to muddy the waters. This is a nice decent continuation of the Warden's story... but that story was really wrapped up last time. In fact prior to Awakening's release most of my Wardens were dead. Post-Awakening because importing a dead character brings them back to life somehow I tend to go the Dark Ritual just to have choices from Awakening that I approve of (such as if Amaranthine burns or not or if Nathaniel's alive).

It had its moments but its ending is not one of them. It's abrupt and rather meh-tastic. Overall it doesn't really add anything for the Warden character but does add to the darkspawn mythos and it was fun to be an arl for a while.

Witch Hunt

This is an extremely weird DLC. First off for it to make sense your Warden had to have agreed to the Dark Ritual (why would the Orleisan Warden go after her?). Secondly while you can make up a reason for a Warden who didn't romance Morrigan to go after her... it's definately easier to understand a romanced Warden to do this.

So it's almost like 'extra added closure' for a specific group of male Wardens who romanced Morrigan. And personally I never liked any of the "I want revenge/you lied to me" dialogue in this DLC because Morrigan did exactly what she promised. The ritual worked and she left exactly as she said.

And worse yet it added nothing really to those Wardens that romanced her and said they'd search for her. You did exactly as you said and found her... and now you're in some mirror world or the Fade or something that's unlikely to be followed up.

So now what was once a nice clean ending isn't so clean anymore. Of course the question of "Where did my character go?" will be brought up. Prior to this DLC those who searched for Morrigan went off like knights looking for the holy grail. We didn't expect the Warden to find Morrigan what was important was that the character chose to go back on their word and search for her.

It was kinda hopelessly romantic.

Here not only is it a slightly less neater ending than before but there's a huge question. The whole idea behind Witch Hunt was "Find Morrigan and your child" and in the end we don't get any new answers. It didn't add enough and left too much unsaid for sequels.

I cannot speak for everyone but I'm willing to bet this DLC more than anything else is why you see so many "Bring back the Warden" and "Finish the Warden's story" comments.

The Warden's story was well and truly over in Origins. It was the story about a young Your Origin Here rising up and stopping the Fifth Blight and changing Ferelden rather significantly along the way. The manner in which you ended the Blight may have changed but the story had ended regardless.

Now there's this Witch Hunt ending teasing a seperate Warden story behind the mirror with Morrigan that never existed before.

Before I move on to a different game another thing Origins did well was give satisfying endings to your companions. Alistair especially got great send offs regardless and I was personally in awe with Alistair's running at the archdemon at the end if you romanced him. Holy god that was the most romantic thing I've ever seen an NPC do in a game. David Gaider, if you're reading this rambling post for some odd reason know if I ever see you I will hug or fist bump you entirely because of that scene. Any other gushing I may or may not do would be for all the other characters and scenes you've written. But I owe you a hug/fist bump for that scene alone.

You've been warned.

Dragon Age 2.

My displeasure of this game is well documented and I have neither the energy nor the inclination to repeat myself here.

But when BioWare says that Hawke's story is done I believe them because I know we're not getting Hawke as PC for DA3. But honestly... I don't see how DA2 was a definitve ending to Hawke or any non-Anders character within.

I fully understand when someone says they want to see the finish to Hawke's story. I just think the problem was always the fact that there isn't a strong enough plotline throughout DA2. It's not exactly about Hawke's rise to power, it's not always about mages/templars (although it is most of the time), and other than giving Hawke a reason to become Champion there isn't much gained from Act 2 (although it is my favorite part of the story).

Because there was never a strong central plot like there was in Origins the ending to Act 3 just feels like an ending to another Act. Act 1 informs the rest of the story but is essentially a stand-alone story that ended, Act 2 explains why Hawke's a Champion but largely is it's own story, and so is Act 3. Because of this it's just another ending to a side story and not one that's pariticularly important to Hawke as a character.

Adding more fuel to the fire is the fact that the ending doesn't feel like an ending to a story. It's like if Origins ended after you did the Dark Ritual. You saw the first battle of what we're told is a world war but it was really more of riot disconnected from most of the game.

Yes many of the companions are all about this argument, yes it's the central conflict of the game's story, and yes it's even foreshadowed by the opening menu with Meredith and Orsinso facing each other (although I had no idea who the elf was until I was about 3-4 hours from beating the game). But it still just feels like the next storyline in the many serial adventure of Hawke.

As such when the ending hits and we're told no one can find Hawke we, the audience, don't believe this is enough of an ending for the character. My first Hawke in particular wasn't so gung-ho Pro-Mage to have this feel like an ending. But even for those Anti-Mage or Pro-Mage Hawkes since we see a riot that sparked a war.

And I feel this would work as an ending with one change throughout the game. If Hawke earned the war. Instead Hawke reacts to others throughout the game. If Hawke's actions had directly led to the riot (either through rising the mages or oppressing them to the point of fighting back) then the uprising or quelling would have been the emotional and logical conclusion to Hawke's story.

Hawke's actions would have led to a rebellion far beyond themselves and Kirkwall. The sight of a rebel rousing Hawke fighting for the oppressed and shouting down the Templars and the society which allows their abuses would have been truly inspiring. Seeing this crusade led to a riot in which quickly enflames all of Thedas would show how one man changed the world.

Likewise the story of Hawke protecting the people and fighting against the extreme powers of mages would make sense. We see time and time again how mages are unpredictable and are very easily led down dark and twisted paths. And we see how innocents are always caught in the crossfire. Hawke here would be fighting for the majority and the system. While less fairy tale sounding this a far more pragmatic story about how fighting for a broken system led to breaking that system completely. Inspiring the very thing Hawke fought against.

Again a valid ending to the story.

But Hawke's actions didn't bring about the ending. And so the ending just feels like the end of an episode of a show. Yes the Riot in Kirkwall was successful or put down... but what happens next week?

Before moving on, I like DA2. I just acknowledge that it's a flawed game. And I while I'm not disappointed, per se, that The Exhaulted March was canceled I do feel like it was a real solid chance to wrap up Hawke's story. Because Hawke, way more so than the Warden, needed an expansion to really nail the ending down for the character.

Mass Effect 3.

Now here's a fresh wound for me. Prior to this year Mass Effect was my favorite video game series ever. And I'm not so dramatic as to say that that's changed since ME3. I had thought so prior to the Extended Cut (like how the Sopranos, the Matrix, and Battlestar Galatica are dead to me) but the EC fixed just enough of my problems with the ending thatI can replay the series without thinking "What's the point."

The ending to Mass Effect 3 is almost a cliche on these boards. Because of this I'm going to really try to be brief here.

There are a few problems with the ending. But the one I'm really going to focus on is the fact that once again the PC did not earn the ending.

Mass Effect 1 had Shepard chasing down a rogue Spectre and stopping the intergalactic invasion of the Reapers. Only Shepard could do this and Shepard did. Regardless of choice Shepard suceeded where no one else could and earned the ending of Mass Effect.

Mass Effect 2 had Shepard building up a team and outfitting the Normandy for a suicide mission against an alien force abducting tens of thousands of human colonists. Shepard does this because Shepard's the only one who could inspire such loyalty and contain enough determination to pull off the impossible. And in a great move the entire suicide mission is all about Shepard making the decisions that make the mission successful or not. You cannot say Shepard did not earn that victory.

Mass Effect 3 however has Shepard going around building an alliance, much like Origins, to stop the Reapers. This is a good start because there's a direct and clear plot line "Stop the Reapers." And building this army is central to stopping them. The problem is that isn't the source of the ending. The army is needed, to be sure, but the ending is given to the player by a previously unheard of character. This isn't Shepard winning the day against the impossible it's Shepard walking into a room and being told "These are the options I'm giving you. Which do you perfer."

On a completely meta-level this is every BioWare game ever. The company tells you the choice you have and you pick. The reason ME3 doesn't get away with this while other BioWare games do is that it's never been so blantantly obvious and never given by a completely new character that the player had no connection to.

When Morrigan tells you about the Dark Ritual things click in your head. That's why Flemeth forced her on you. You know how she feels about love and see the pain this is causing her, the inner turmoil about her duty and her desires. It's the culmination of a character you've spent 80 hours with.

The Catalyst is a complete unknown, and worse reveals itself to be the force behind the intergalactic enemy you've spent years fighting. At this point even if the Catalyst had been introduced earlier in the game it would still feel weird for Commander 'I Routinely Do the Impossible' Shepard to just agree with the enemy and play the enemy's game.

While opinions differ rather harshly about which ending is the best ending or how so-in-so ending is repulsive the actual endings aren't so terrible as to be invalid. A theme throughout ME3 was victory through sacrifice and all three major endings contain both sacrifices and victories. Synthesis has unity at the cost of diversity, Destroy has victory against Reapers at the cost of all synthetic life, and Control is Utopia forced on the galaxy by a Renegade Shepard-God or a Paragon Shepard-God serving the galaxy at the cost of their humanity. And I personally think Renegade Control also has the cost of descenting opinion since Renegade Shepard-God puts down any minorities or things it perceives as a threat.

While there is no completely positive ending with no draw backs that doesn't make those endings invalid. The problem really lies with the Catalyst and how those choices were presented. Which ending you prefer is up to personal bias and how you're role-playing the Commander.

Jade Empire

This is a game which hilariously plays well off of the ending of Mass Effect 3. In Jade Empire you play the last of the Spirit Monks on a mission to stop the Evil Emperor Sun Hai and find a way to end the restless spirits infesting the world.

I could go off on a huge (too late) post on the story and characters for this game. It's honestly a really good but really short game. And the story is all about Power. Wanting it, craving it, and the lengths you'd go to secure it. It's about ambition so outrageous that it reaches above their station in the cosmos and deflies the divine.

To be frank and spoiler-y in the end you find out that your kindly old master from the very beginning was behind a great Batman Gambit to put himself in charge of both the Jade Empire and to be a living God with all the amazing powers and responsibilities that entails. Sun Li the Glorious Strategist is one of BioWare's best villains.

His position isn't unreasonable. The Gods had decided to end the Jade Empire through a long and destructive drought. This causes the Sun Brothers to march against the Water Dragon herself (Hai, Li, and I believe the third one was named Kai or something similar). Li's great decades long plan was all in effort to defy the gods and keep the Empire alive. He ultimately believes that humans should be the deciding factor for humanity and not disconnected immortal gods who see humanity as playthings beneath them.

It's almost a noble goal.

It's so close to being noble that you can almost agree with him... no matter the costs.

And you were a cog in Sun Li's plan. And when you served your role he fantastically killed you. Your party disbanded and fled and the world appeared truly stuck in Li's grasp. The Glorious Strategist proved true to his title.

But then the Water Dragon intervenes and manages to bring you back to life with what small power she still has as Li continues to drain her. This all leads to you and your reformed party fight against the Imperial Army... and then the ending gets extremely interesting.

The Spirit Monk has until this point been a tool for Sun Li and then the Water Dragon. At this point you're acting outside of Sun Li's plans for the first time in your character's life. Likewise the Water Dragon's powers have waned so much (Li's stealing it) that she cannot affect the mortal world at all.

For the first time your character can act of their own free will. And what a power that is. Regardless of choice you eventually meet up with Sun Li and the man gives you a choice on the endings. Exactly like the Catalyst would later do in Mass Effect 3. Sun Li dictates your options and you can take his deal which results in his continuing rule of the Jade Empire as God-Emperor Sun Li.

But unlike Mass Effect 3 Jade Empire also allows your character the chance to say "No." The form in which can be "No, I will right the wrongs you've done to nature" or "No, I will be God-Emperor." You then fight and earn your damn ending in one of the most satisfying endings around.

And there is a nice little epilogue but you have a decent idea of what happens after the story without them. The PC is either dead and Sun Li is God-Emperor, has restored the natural order of the universe, or has become God-Emperor. You can also lose many companions and rule with different people and Silk Fox and Dawn Star can be corrupted by your influence or not. But outside of some companions you know exactly what ending your character has earned before the first text epilogue appears.



CONCLUSION.

It is, in my opinion, clear that what people are really wanting when they say they desire closure is greater agency. It isn't that the ending in question isn't clear enough. It's the fact that the character (and player) hasn't properly earned the ending. They didn't set out and through sheer determination, force of will, and even martial might secure that ending.

And if there's a lesson to be learned here in this crazily long over-wrought post it's that at the end of the day video game stories are about the players. Players are the main character and in a story the main character has to earn their victories. It cannot be given to the character without it seeming cheap (which is why deus ex machinas are regarded with disdane while simply plot devices that allow the hero to win are accepted).

And video games have no real choices in them. You play the game as it was designed. If it allows for a second or third option it's still a option they gave you. Not one you picked yourself. So developers have to hide this rather skillfully or it's too blantant and rejected. The best and clear way to hide it is through character development either for a NPC or the PC.

And lastly there needs to be a strong central plot to focus the character and player.

Before I click submit and no one reads this mountain of text I want to say: BioWare in general knocks these endings out of the park more than they don't. They are craftsman who have improved their craft time and time again. You only need to replay some of the older games to see how great their character work has evolved over time. And they're one of the few developers in the world who honestly think characters are as important to their games as their gameplay mechanics.

This post isn't so much to demand anything from them. I'm not showing them anything they likely haven't thought of themselves. Mostly this a thread that spawned entirely because I saw a poster comment on closure one too many times and honestly sat down to think, "What do you they mean by wanting more closure?"

<3Thanks for Reading.<3

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 09 octobre 2012 - 06:09 .

[JellyBean28]

First, I have to say major props for writing that all out.
Now that I've said that, i must say that I have to agree with you for the most part. In most cases, we get the closure it just feels like we've earned the ending for one reason or another.
I will add that the main reason I want to know more about my Warden was actually because of DA2's ending. I accepted that my wardens were off doing what they chose to do (one became queen, another went in the mirror, so on and so forth). My problem was when they said that the Warden disappeared and so did Hawke.
Although, I do love my wardens to death and would enjoy playing them again. I have to admit that.
And I don't think I'm going to touch the ME3 ending here. That subject has been discussed way too much.
Bottom line, I agree with you.
(I also completely agree with what you said about Alistair charging the Archdemon, refusing to let you sacrifice yourself if you romanced him. It is one of the many examples I have on why I love David Gaider.)

[Foolsfolly]

JellyBean28 wrote...

First, I have to say major props for writing that all out.
Now that I've said that, i must say that I have to agree with you for the most part. In most cases, we get the closure it just feels like we've earned the ending for one reason or another.
I will add that the main reason I want to know more about my Warden was actually because of DA2's ending. I accepted that my wardens were off doing what they chose to do (one became queen, another went in the mirror, so on and so forth). My problem was when they said that the Warden disappeared and so did Hawke.
Although, I do love my wardens to death and would enjoy playing them again. I have to admit that.
And I don't think I'm going to touch the ME3 ending here. That subject has been discussed way too much.
Bottom line, I agree with you.
(I also completely agree with what you said about Alistair charging the Archdemon, refusing to let you sacrifice yourself if you romanced him. It is one of the many examples I have on why I love David Gaider.)

I totally forgot to add that bit about DA2's ending. I don't know what the intention was to have that line said (it's said regardless of the Warden's status among the living) but it really did invite fan theory about the Warden and Hawke teaming up to fight something.

And I don't know if that was the intention. I know BioWare shouldn't be held responsible for fan misinterpretation but I can't really figure out what other interpretation you could draw from that line. It really sounds like Leliana knows something we don't and it involves Hawke and the Warden doing something... or being victims of something...

And thanks. I honestly didn't think I'd have the patience to write that out.

Filament wrote...

I dunno if I'd call Jade Empire's one of
the most satisfying endings around. Am I really supposed to care about
the fate of Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard,
some joke character?

Joke character or not his eplogue was funny. And he was voiced by John Cleese which you can't disapprove of.

[Arch1eviathan]

I can't believe I actually bothered to read all of this.

Nice post. Sorry I don't actually have anything to contribute to.

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Filament wrote...

I dunno if I'd call Jade Empire's one of the most satisfying endings around. Am I really supposed to care about the fate of Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard, some joke character?

Yes, because he was the best part of the game.

He was indeed.  I came to Jade Empire late, as it didn't get to PC for a couple of years.  Loved the setting of the game; finding John Cleese doing voice in a game I adored....and such a fantastic character.  Pythonesque writing in that confrontation...very well done.

[Foolsfolly]

Arch1eviathan wrote...

I can't believe I actually bothered to read all of this.

Nice post. Sorry I don't actually have anything to contribute to.

Thanks anyway.

Filament wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

 And he was voiced by John Cleese which you can't disapprove of.

Certainly not, but still. It felt out-of-place.

Drive-by-snarking
aside though, to be honest the ending to me was just awfully ho-hum.
Rather abrupt, no dialog, everyone cheering because you won, hurray,
slideshow, the end. And it seems like all those people cheering
shouldn't necessarily be happy at all what with their apparently
unquestioning devotion to the emperor built up throughout the game, and
the impending return of the drought that was going to destroy the empire
and added some moral complexity to the villains, which conveniently
doesn't occur. I know his daughter was there to smooth it over but
still, it strained belief. Felt like a quick, dirty happy ending for the
sake of a happy ending instead of exploring possible ramifications of
the white knight choice.

What I'm saying is, I really wanted to romance the water-dragon.

I would agree that I'd have liked more dialogue but I always just assumed if you freed the Water Dragon the Jade Empire collapsed. Not immediately, of course, but the gods had decreed its end. And its continued existed was an affront to the natural order and some other place had suffered from the Jade Empires continued existence and lack of a drought.

So in like a generation or so it would fracture up completely. I know the epilogues mention none of this, and perhaps her brief experience with mortality changed the Water Dragon's perspective... but accepting the natural order of things lends itself to a certain level of fatalism. Choosing to be a cog in a grand machine in which death is a part of life and civilizations must both rise and fall.

It's a sweet but horrible ending at the same time.

That said I've done the Closed Fist ending more times than the Open Palm ending. I enjoy the idea of wildly outrageous ambition rising you to godhood. Screw the natural order humanity should decide humanity's future.

So when I say satisfying ending I'm really talking about the Closed Fist ending more than Open Palm.

[Blastback]

YES. Well said Foolsfolly. Very well said. Bioware, please read this!

[Icinix]

Good post.

I actually picked up Jade Empire after ME3 - so after DA2 and ME3 it was like seeing a return to form.

Sucked me in harder than the their two recent releases, felt like I owned my character, and the ending and its closure were well done. It also did something the last few releases haven't made me want to do - start a new character the second the credits ended.

Also has one of the finest pieces of game music, in the Water Dragon theme, I have ever heard.

Ultimately in every game though - I would love to see the text based epilogues overlaid over in game animation showing what its regarding - really let loose those cinematic teams.

[Foolsfolly]

Icinix wrote...

Good post.

I actually picked up Jade Empire after ME3 - so after DA2 and ME3 it was like seeing a return to form.

Sucked me in harder than the their two recent releases, felt like I owned my character, and the ending and its closure were well done. It also did something the last few releases haven't made me want to do - start a new character the second the credits ended.

Also has one of the finest pieces of game music, in the Water Dragon theme, I have ever heard.

Ultimately in every game though - I would love to see the text based epilogues overlaid over in game animation showing what its regarding - really let loose those cinematic teams.

I mentioned Jade Empire entirely because I happened to replay it after ME3. It was so much fun to go back to that game. Not perfect game by any means but damn I loved Sun Li all over again, and Black Whirlwind, Henpecked Hou, Silk Fox, Dawn Star, and Kang the Mad, damn I loved that ending. It was just so much fun after ME3's disappointment.

After I beat Jade Empire the EC came out and I enjoyed it more than the original ending. But KOTOR through Mass Effect 2 was a series of much better endings than DA2 and ME3 had.

[marshalleck]

Brilliant post, OP. Deserves to be read in its entirety.

[jennamarae]

Foolsfolly you make entirely too much sense to be posting in this madhouse. I'm pretty sure that much logic isn't allowed here.

Seriously though, that was very well put and well worth getting on my computer to read it instead of my phone. And now that you mention it, I have to agree with you that the reason I like DAO's ending much more than DA2's was at least partly because I earned that ending. Hopefully someone from Bioware reads this, takes it to heart, and makes the ending to DA3 one that makes the player feel like they were involved in how the PC got there and that they earned whatever it is that they accomplish. Or cause, depending on how you look at it.

Modifié par jennamarae, 09 octobre 2012 - 11:05 .

[Wulfram]

DA2's ending has a lot of problems, and looks a lot worse now that we know there's no real future for Hawke.

The Mage ending is unsatisfying because it doesn't seem like Hawke achieves anything - that might have been OK if that defeat was going to be used as motivation in the future, but that doesn't work now.

The Templar ending suffers from the thing where you're told Hawke gets made viscount and then told they lost it in the next sentence. That's not at all satisfying.

The whole disappearance thing is annoying, particularly since it doesn't feel like a "ride off into the sunset" type disappearance, but it aslo doesn't give enough information to allow for any satisfying speculation as to what's really going on.

Lack of information about the companions is very annoying, too - particularly in the mage ending, where you've got no idea how most of them will handle exile.

[philippe willaume]

well written my good man
the original ending in ME3 and DA:2 are really made worse by a poor exposition, contextualization and insufficient closure and for ME3 being basically one ending in 3 colors.

For me the ME3 ending fixes those 3 points, Probably not as well as it should but it is so much better than the original ending that I am super grateful and you have the option to tell the Ethereal Brat to stick his offer where the sun does not shine.

I am not sure it is a matter of earning the ending, it is more that given the ending and the way it is presented, it is very difficult to relate that to what the player/character has done.

i am fine with anders putting granny and the chantry on low orbit. but especially in the friendship the contextualization is poor and coupled with the fact that it is a "fait accomplit".You fell quite detached of the event as a player.
the two boss fight at the end don't really make sense and the story never developed so that I care about O or M.

if you compare it to act II, it looks like actIII comes from a table top RPG session  at 03:15 after 3 meat pizza with extra piquant sauce.

phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 10 octobre 2012 - 12:08 .

[CaptainBlackGold]

An intelligent, well reasoned, perceptive post that neither bashes nor idolizes Bioware but actually offers useful critique? I must be on the wrong boards...

Anyways OP, thanks for taking the time to write this - enjoyed reading it and thinking about why some endings work and others do not.

[Nefla]

You deserve a standing ovation! Very insightful and well written and I agree on all points (plus JE was such an under-rated game) The most recent BW games feel so cheap and lazy as if they're thinking "meh, players are stupid they wont notice."

[Fast Jimmy]

First off, excellent post, Foolsfolly. Really good analysis of many Bioware endings.

I know you didn't spend as much time on ME3 on purpose, but I feel like your position that ME3 offers closure isn't something I can agree with. Pre-EC, there were hugely outstanding questions about the survival of the galaxy, regardless of choice. But even after the EC, where we get different voice overs, slides that don't convey any real information other than vague pictures and a scene where they are hanging a plate... even with this new content, there is NO explanation of what are the consequences of your actions. But, even more importantly, there is no follow up on the future of your companions the ramifications of your choices outside of the Final Choice and no discussion of your LI, among many other things.

We didn't get closure or clarification, merely bread crumbs that could lead to trails in ninety different directions. Ambiguity is still a poor quality to have for an ending, particularly an ending of a trilogy that people invested so much time into. But, that is probably more of a ME3 complaint.

Regardless, there should be a fair amount for both fans and devs to digest from this post. Unfortunately, as Brent Knowles once said, the ending of a game is the part that usually is more susceptible to cuts, rushed content creation and crunch-time decisions. Which is a shame, since narratives dictate that the ending is where most of the suspense and tension needs resolution. And humans are beings that crave... no, that REQUIRE narrative structure. It's how our brains are wired, so a poorly implemented ending is, literally, a viscerally bad experience for us.

[milena87]

Thanks OP, it was a well written post and a good analysis on why (some/many/most) people react in a certain way to an ending.

I personally agree about all your points. JE, ME1 (and 2 to an extent, but I have various problems with ME2's plot and direction, so it's not really one of my favourite endings) and vanilla DAO all had excellent endings: they weren't a let down and they felt like the natural evolution of the story being told.

I didn't hate DA2's ending, I actually quite like it in concept, but I understand the complaints: Hawke's actions and choices mean almost nothing in the end, both Orsino and Meredith will go crazy and Hawke's will eventually leave Kirkwall for no known reason. I was honestly a bit disappointed about the cancellation of The Exalted March.

ME3 is something I really hope to never witness again and the EC didn't change my mind.

I really hope that the DA team will focus on creating a great ending for DA3

Modifié par milena87, 10 octobre 2012 - 09:45 .

[Biotic Sage]

ME3 ending was and still is amazing to me. The EC made it better in some ways, like the epilogue and giving context as to why certain squadmates would be on the Normandy in that final scene. However, it made it worse in other ways, like the completely jarring Normandy pickup that interrupts the final asssault. Why wouldn't the Normandy pick them up before you run straight toward Harbinger? Shepard: "This is something I have to do alone." It's that simple. Lame, but much better than such a jarring intterupt to the pacing.

Haters gonna hate, I think ME3 will age very well in the sci-fi and video-game pantheons, unlike turd balls like the Matrix sequels. You mentioned that Battlestar Gallactica is dead to you. Say it isn't so! That final season and especially the finale were the most terrible things of all time, especially when juxtaposed to how great the rest of the series was. You can still appreciate and enjoy what they accomplished in those other seasons though, right? And the Soprano's was a gutsy, artistic move that has real literary significance. They were conveying a message. They aren't going to moralize and deal out their ideas of poetic justice for you; it's up to you, the viewer, to decide what to make of this man's life. Sometimes that is a legitimate direction to take.

So obviously, as evident from the above, "closure" means different things to different people. When everything is spelled out for me, that doesn't necessarily equal "closure." In fact, it may detract from closure. I look at closure as having some narrative congruency, basically a logical conclusion for that specific narrative, which can obviously vary depending on the narrative in question.

And one more thing.  Why does everyone refer to the Catalyst or the Intelligence as "Starbrat" or "Starchild?"  I know people are angry at its "logic," but that's the whole point of it.  It's a rogue AI that was built for a purpose, and the irony is it is "accomplishing" that purpose in a completely compassionless way, a way completely lacking in any humanity.  That's classic sci-fi right there, and an excellent reveal for the Reapers in my opinion.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 10 octobre 2012 - 10:13 .

[wright1978]

I agree that DAO ending did provide closure. If it wasn't for the fact subequent expansions and installments muddying the water and leaving a big new question mark over the warden's fate there wouldn't be an issue. Warden was tugged back from closure by the disappearance and therefore needs the closure given of why/where they disappeared to.

Also agree that Hawke could have done with the exalted march expansion to take from the vanilla ending left off. Equally though Hawke still needs closure because of his/her disappearance. I'd have been happy with my hawke sailing off with Isabela but the story has picked him up again and therefore his fate needs explaining.

ME3 ending has much wider problems. Medicore game that butchered the core player characterisation features and capped it all off with a railroaded galactic dark age in every ending. EC fixed this by providing a touch of agency back and making endings seem less bleak and more importantly varied. There's still a lack of closure for live Shep as he/she is just left buried under rubble and not tied to epilogue sequences properly. Dead Shep does get closure though.