39 réponses à ce sujet

[Fallstar]

Regarding the whole "Awakening resurrected my dead Warden" thing, why don't people just not import their dead Wardens? If you're creating the problem yourself, don't complain about it. There is an option to start as a new Warden Commander, so the content is still available.

Awakening didn't break US Wardens in the slightest, it's the players who are doing that.

Other than that, excellent post. I agree with pretty much everything DA related.

[Lord Gremlin]

Extremely well written post. And great analysis too. Come to think of it, imagine if instead of Catalyst in ME3 Shepard just meets a Reaper, who admits their future in this war is no longer so certain and offers Control or Synthesis, but Shepard has the choice to say "not bloody likely, you ugly squid" and go with Destroy. Absolutely same thing, but suddenly got better.
Also, really loved Jade Empire. Replayed it many times, although most of times ended as God Emperor. Always felt uncertain about cannibals, they're just as evil as my PC, but they also very disrespectful. Ah, they should remake Jade Empire for PS3 and possibly WiiU.

[Kulyok]

A great post, and I read it with interest, though I never played Jade Empire.

I, too, believe that Awakening and especially Witch Hunt erased closure, not created it.
I'd also add that Awakening epilogue *made* the Warden leave the Fereldan Wardens, which wasn't my intention, for one. (My Wardens had no love interest, no occupation at court and no desire to go adventuring at random, except serving the Wardens in Ferelden at his/her post as Warden-Commander). I really don't like the game telling me what my character is going to do, if it's not my character talking, so "it was time for him/her to move on" really annoyed me.

Regarding the whole "Awakening resurrected my dead Warden" thing, why don't people just not import their dead Wardens? If you're creating the problem yourself, don't complain about it. There is an option to start as a new Warden Commander, so the content is still available.

You can't. If your Warden is dead, you can't bring the consequences of your choices(Anora is queen, Redcliffe is destroyed, Anvil is preserved and so on) to the Awakening and from the Awakening - to DA2 - without playing a dead Warden.

If you killed your Warden and then started the Awakening with a new Warden-Commander, this Warden-Commander receives some "default" choices(Alistair is king, for example). So your only choice to get a "clean" import with your choices would be not playing the Awakening at all, but rather importing to DA2 right after the Ultimate Sacrifice achievement.

[AnacondaDarce]

If the world was a dictatorship, i'd be fine having you rule it.

[Foolsfolly]

Wulfram wrote...
...

Lack of information about the companions is very annoying, too - particularly in the mage ending, where you've got no idea how most of them will handle exile.

I agree a lot with this. I feel that's another reason why DA:O has such a great ending. You get to either read about the companions if the Warden died or actually get to talk to them and know for certain what they plan to do now that this big DOOM isn't hanging over their heads.

DA2 and ME3 really does not let you know anything. Original ME3 didn't even let you know if your crew survived. Now you only see a slide of some of the ME2 companions in the Synthetic ending only. You have no idea what happens to them. It hurts since a lot of the reasons why we enjoy these games is because we love these characters and we want to know if they're going to be all right or not.

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

An intelligent, well reasoned,
perceptive post that neither bashes nor idolizes Bioware but actually
offers useful critique? I must be on the wrong boards...

Anyways
OP, thanks for taking the time to write this - enjoyed reading it and
thinking about why some endings work and others do not.

I was honestly worried that I'd come across as too much of a BioWare fanboy. Wanted to make my points without bashing BioWare because they do good work... they do bad work sometimes too.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

First off, excellent post, Foolsfolly. Really good analysis of many Bioware endings.

I
know you didn't spend as much time on ME3 on purpose, but I feel like
your position that ME3 offers closure isn't something I can agree
with...

I really could have written a larger post all about the ME3 ending. The original ending is series ruiningly bad. There is literally nothing about the original ending that worked. It was disjointed, heavy handed, and baffling. It killed my desire to even touch a Mass Effect game for months after.

The EC helped a lot even though there are still a few dozen things wrong with that ending. But I really don't want to talk about ME3's ending so much here. Wrong forum for one thing. But I will post this link to a long but fantastic video about exactly why the ME3 ending fails as a series capper and as an ending in general. It also does that without bashing BioWare or name calling. Really fantastic video.

We didn't get closure or clarification, merely bread crumbs that could
lead to trails in ninety different directions. Ambiguity is still a poor
quality to have for an ending, particularly an ending of a trilogy that
people invested so much time into. But, that is probably more of a ME3
complaint.

There should never be ambiguity in an ending. Yes it works sometimes but like 9 out of 10 times it fails miserably.

Biotic Sage wrote...

You mentioned that Battlestar
Gallactica is dead to you. Say it isn't so! That final season and
especially the finale were the most terrible things of all time,
especially when juxtaposed to how great the rest of the series was. You
can still appreciate and enjoy what they accomplished in those other
seasons though, right? And the Soprano's was a gutsy, artistic move that
has real literary significance. They were conveying a message. They
aren't going to moralize and deal out their ideas of poetic justice for
you; it's up to you, the viewer, to decide what to make of this man's
life. Sometimes that is a legitimate direction to take.

Battlestar's last season proved to me that that show which I had loved so much and spent actual time thinking about... never had any clue where they were going or what the show was about. It abandoned most of its strengths and just went off rails to the point that looking back at the older episodes just reminds me that no one's driving the car.

As for the Sopranos I never wanted Tony punished or killed. I actually wanted to see that horrible thug win. To be king of the mountain, so to say. But the whole thing about having us decide what to make of his life... I don't know. Stories aren't reality. They're better plotted and generally sexier. And I feel Sopranos just... fell apart into muddy gray goo at the end.

I wasn't one of those who shouted and cursed. But I was one of those that thought my satellite went out. I just shrugged and never looked back at the series.

DuskWarden wrote...

Regarding the whole "Awakening
resurrected my dead Warden" thing, why don't people just not import
their dead Wardens? If you're creating the problem yourself, don't
complain about it. There is an option to start as a new Warden
Commander, so the content is still available.

The problem with that is if you start as the new Warden Commander you have no choice over what happened in Origins. Like Alistair's king, Loghain's dead, I have no idea what happened to Anora, I have no idea who's king in Orzammar. It's like that. So it's not like you're importing your Origins data into the game and playing as a new Warden. I wish it was.

I have skipped Awakening and all the other DLC and just import directly into DA2. I've done that a two times. But I've got a slight... controlling desire with RPGs. I want to control everything and I don't like the default choices of Awakening because I want Nathaniel alive. And I want to see if that Silver Order will have an impact later on.

Will it? Likely not. But I love that epilogue!

[Cigne]

Outstanding post, Foolsfolly.

One of the most 'constructively critical' post I've seen on the forums in awhile.

[Giltspur]

I appreciate the post.  It's interesting that you bring up the surface similarities between Dark Ritual choice and the Catalyst choice.  I know deep down that I really liked the former and just totally rejected the latter.  Why is that?  I think it's because I bought into the decisions Bioware gave me to choose from in addressing that choice with the Dark Ritual. It was a tough decision.  But I recognize that the only options are yes and no.  And that's what the game gave me.  I bought into the tough choice. ME3 just had a weird decision with weird answers I'd never choose.  So that seems to explain my feeling that ME3's ending was about the Catalyst and not about Shepard.  It was a very deflating ending.  I don't mean it was sad. I like sad endings.  It was deflating because there's no emotinal pay off, happy or sad. The choices for the Catalyst weren't made by Shepard.  They were pre-made by the guy that designed the Catalyst.  The choices of synthesis, destroy and control were built into the design of someone else's weapon.  And if I didn't like those choices, tough.  Because Shepard was a silly human that couldn't defeat the reapers without the help of some weapon that some dude designed and gave limited functionality to.  So I just rejected the decision the way some people pick up a novel and then put it down because it just doesn't click with them.  It's like the Dark Ritual if I back away and look at it coldly.  Twist in the story!  Tough decision!  But it just doesn't work for me.  I step out of the story and wonder why the writers wrote what they did.  What am I supposed to get out of this?  I can summarize it, but I'm not intrigued by it.

If there's a moral dilemma, I don't have to like the options.  That not liking the options is part of the dilemma after all. But I do have to accept that those are the options.  And ME3 gets around by saying "An alien did it.  Now choose." That's hard to swallow as a gamer or reader.  The choices I had in DAO are the sorts of choices I'd expect given the way the world is.  I didn't want a story about the limitations of some alien design.  But that's what ME3 turns into at the end.  And that's why it feels like Shepard isn't really what the ending is about.  That's why it feels like an ending about the Catalyst.  And that's to your point of the ending not being about the player.  

So I really like the tough decisons.  But I didn't like the one in ME3, and I think the nature of the choices are what made me feel disconnected and hopefully my rambling paragraphs explain why. 

DA2's ending was something.  It's another case where the main characer doesn't feel all that connected to the ending.  I like the world state.  I like what happened.  But I also don't like Hawke's not being the character that takes the decisive action that brings about the conclusion.  ME3 felt disconnected in that way.  DA2 felt disconnected in that way.  I get that.  But they're still different.  DA2 is so much less of an offender here.  I think it would have worked fine to give Hawke a "Bioware decision" to make and to have had Anders do what he did no matter what.  Then we've got an ending.  Hawke failed.  He gets to look sadly at the flames that burn as evidence of his failure.  I would have been fine with that.  What kind of decision would have worked?  Let's make Hawke Viscount at the end of Act iI.  Here are we are in Act III.  So Viscount Hawke you gonna support Meredith in being a jerkbag to the mages?  Gonna free the mages and just assume their gratitude will result in nothing ever going wrong?  Gonna make the Circle better but still compulsory?  Gonna make the circle better and optional?  That's  a list like ME3 as opposed to Yes-No like DAO was.  But it's a good list.  That list seems to cover the sort of options I'd imagine.  I'd buy into the tough choice.  And I could believe each of those roads leading to failure and resulting the same event at the end of DA2.  It wouldn't feel like railroading by designers.  It would feel like tragic inevitability.  That's why DA2's ending doesn't really bother me even if i have my criticisms.  It's so close to being something I'd really like.

Modifié par Giltspur, 10 octobre 2012 - 04:24 .

[Foolsfolly]

If there's a moral dilemma, I don't have to like the options. That not liking the options is part of the dilemma after all. But I do have to accept that those are the options. And ME3 gets around by saying "An alien did it. Now choose." That's hard to swallow as a gamer or reader. The choices I had in DAO are the sorts of choices I'd expect given the way the world is. I didn't want a story about the limitations of some alien design. But that's what ME3 turns into at the end. And that's why it feels like Shepard isn't really what the ending is about. That's why it feels like an ending about the Catalyst. And that's to your point of the ending not being about the player.

So I really like the tough decisons. But I didn't like the one in ME3, and I think the nature of the choices are what made me feel disconnected and hopefully my rambling paragraphs explain why.

Good post. I think your rambling paragraphs explained why rather well. The fact that the story about Shepard stopping the Reapers turned into something completely different in the end. Similar to how DA2's central conflict about Mage Freedom vs Templars Ensuring Public Security fell apart the moment Anders blows up the Chantry. Now it's about Meredith slaying a group innocent of a terrorist attack.

And I could believe each of those roads leading to failure and resulting the same event at the end of DA2. It wouldn't feel like railroading by designers. It would feel like tragic inevitability

I like Act 2. Act 2's plot has the Arishok, a man torn between his duty and his growing rage and disgust, on one end and the zealots within the Chantry the other. The Viscount is stuck between these two groups trying to appease both all the while trying to manage his son. There's a bunch of points of conflict within these characters all without magic or plot devices. It's just well crafted drama.

And while Hawke works through the Act either trying to make peace or even joining the Chantry zealots and wanting to see the qunari destroyed the events begin to spiral to one inevitable conclusion.

It's tragic.

Truly.

It's so well done. I felt the pull towards that bloody sad end and there was nothing I or Hawke could do. The Arishok was antagonized beyond his breaking point and lashes out. Meanwhile the Viscount feels he has failed as a father and is in such mourning that he's stricken paralyzed. The Arishok launches a war, Isabela does what Issy will always do (run away) and Hawke's pulled into the center of this great conflict.

It was well done.

...Act 3 not so much. I don't get the feeling that the riot was tragically inevitable. It just feels like Elthina didn't do her job, Meredith's driven mad by an idol, and Orinso turns out to be exactly the kind of mage Elthina thinks he's hiding from the Templars. It's just a mess. A disconnected mess that shouldn't have gotten that far. And probably wouldn't have had Anders not blown up the Chantry.

[Rawgrim]

The OP forgot Kotor. The series that was going to be a trilogy, but in order to make more cash they skipped the story ahead a few hundred years, and made an MMO instead. Absolutely zero closure to that series.

[Il Divo]

Jade Empire rules.

[Puzzlewell]

I'm just going to chime in real quick and state that I too felt the Closed Fist ending was surprisingly satisfying, more so than Open Palm. Jade Empire is a game that means a lot to me. I normally don't quite go with the so called "evil" routes in BioWare games cause a lot of the time they feel off (though the Renegade routes in at least ME1 and 2 could be satisfying at times, I'm mainly meaning KotOR1 where playing Sith mostly made you a thug instead of what real Sith stand for), but Closed Fist is more a philosphy of seizing your own inner strength by whatever means you can. I've done both endings and quite honestly found Closed Fist to be the more satisying route.

[Gewehr_fr]

Great post, I agree to pretty much everything you said, except for the Witch Hunt part.

Yes, for my female warden who obviously didn't romance Morrigan the DLC felt kind of useless, assuming you let her go into the eluvian mirror. But for my mage warden who romanced her it added exactly the last bit of closure I needed for my character, and the dialogs about "revenge" or "betrayal" can easily be avoided if that's not the reason you came for her. But yes not romancing her it just added more questions which are likely to be answered in DA3.

About DAO and ME3 I completely 100% agree, and I would add to ME3 that leaving Shepard mortally wounded under some wreckage was a terrible idea that should have been fixed in the EC. Dead Shepard has closure, "living" Shepard is left with an ambiguous fate up to speculation.

About DA2, well once Varric is done narrating Hawke's story to Cassandra the game is supposed to be over. And knowing my Hawke and Merrill went away from Kirkwall aboard Isabela's new ship was enough for me, although I wouldn't mind a cutscene for it along with a DAO sort of reunion giving an opportunity to say goodbye to everyone. Otherwise you make very good points.

Haven't played jade Empire (yet) so I can not comment on that.

[Mr Arg]

Filament wrote...

Am I really supposed to care about the fate of Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard, some joke character?

Wait, YOU DIDN'T?!?!?!?!


Also, OP, you nailed it.

[Bigdoser]

I agree OP its the reason why me3 is no longer on my computer and jade empire still is. 0

[Foolsfolly]

Rawgrim wrote...

The OP forgot Kotor. The series that was going to be a trilogy, but in order to make more cash they skipped the story ahead a few hundred years, and made an MMO instead. Absolutely zero closure to that series.

I didn't forget KOTOR. It was my first BioWare game and made me look forward to all their games since. It proved not only could you do a decent RPG on a console but you could also make a great game out of the Star Wars universe. Two things I thought near impossible prior to its release.

Made me a BioWare fan.

I have no idea if it was meant to be a trilogy. I know KOTOR2 really heavily leans on that idea of the Exile and Revan meeting and fighting the True Sith or something... but KOTOR2 was a mess. An enjoyable mess that for some reasons I replayed more than I replayed KOTOR1 (which is the better game). But a mess nonetheless.

CalamityRanger wrote...

I'm just going to chime in real
quick and state that I too felt the Closed Fist ending was surprisingly
satisfying, more so than Open Palm. Jade Empire is a game that means a
lot to me. I normally don't quite go with the so called "evil" routes in
BioWare games cause a lot of the time they feel off (though the
Renegade routes in at least ME1 and 2 could be satisfying at times, I'm
mainly meaning KotOR1 where playing Sith mostly made you a thug instead
of what real Sith stand for), but Closed Fist is more a philosphy of
seizing your own inner strength by whatever means you can. I've done
both endings and quite honestly found Closed Fist to be the more
satisying route.

Oh, it's such a good ending. I loved playing Closed Fist in Jade Empire. And I too normally stick to the Light Side, Paragon, what-have-you side of the morality alignment (with a few evils for fun). But mostly I play Closed Fist in Jade Empire and tend to lead/corrupt Dawn Star and Silk Fox while I'm at it.

Gewehr_fr wrote...

Great post, I agree to pretty much everything you said, except for the Witch Hunt part.

Yes,
for my female warden who obviously didn't romance Morrigan the DLC felt
kind of useless, assuming you let her go into the eluvian mirror. But
for my mage warden who romanced her it added exactly the last bit of
closure I needed for my character, and the dialogs about "revenge" or
"betrayal" can easily be avoided if that's not the reason you came for
her. But yes not romancing her it just added more questions which are
likely to be answered in DA3.

I don't know. I admit fully that the post is my opinion only. But Witch Hunt didn't go far enough for me, even with my Wardens that romanced Morrigan. It just... didn't  do enough for me. Too many balls still left in the air (and then
frustratingly weren't wrapped up in DA2).

But if it helped your Warden than I guess the DLC did its job.

About
DAO and ME3 I completely 100% agree, and I would add to ME3 that
leaving Shepard mortally wounded under some wreckage was a terrible idea
that should have been fixed in the EC. Dead Shepard has closure,
"living" Shepard is left with an ambiguous fate up to speculation.

But speculation is exactly what they wanted. <_<

I agree for the most part. Death is an end but it's not always the ending. Having Shepard die isn't enough for it to just be the end. To redirect to Origins for a moment when the Warden died the DA Team wisely chose to have us see the funeral of the Warden and hear (and read) about all the things that Warden had affected.

Shepard's death has sad music play over it... and then we got the credits. Then in the EC we get EDI, Hacket, or Shepard speaking over a slide show. The slide show's fine and all but it doesn't ever go in depth about the societies or characters we affected. Like you see a wide shot of Tuchanka and the general feeling is it's rebuilt or something... but there's no context. We don't know how they rebuilt.

Or how you see a silde of Grunt in a transport ship. We know he survived the final battle now (I really thought the entire ME2 squad died in the original ending) but what about his future? We see nothing of those ME1 and ME3 characters that were with us.

So if closure is "having nothing vague about the characters" than even without Shepard breathing the ME3 ending fails to provide proper closure. But even that breathing scene brings up many questions like "where is Shepard?" They clearly are not on the Citadel anymore (one of the many reasons there is the Indoctirination Theory, which is bunk in my opinion).

Or "Will they rescue Shepard?" "Are they even looking for Shepard?" Or my favorite "Why is Shepard's Love Interest Seemingly Psychic Now And Doesn't Place Shepard's Name On the Memorial Wall?"

There's a lot of reasons why ME3's ending fails. These last few paragraphs are almost entirely about how it failed emotionally to the player... or at least me.

If it means anything I think after the backlash for ME3's ending and the general disappointment on these boards for the DA2 ending that the guys working on DA3 will provide us a satisfying ending. How could they not after these last two years?

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 11 octobre 2012 - 07:13 .