236 réponses à ce sujet

[LucasShark]

The truly sad part of all this is in my view: the series' core plot didn't need any of this pseudo-science or inept philosophizing.  Here's the structure which could have worked fine:

ME1 - Act 1: Introduce your hero, Shepard, introduce the supporting characters, the crew, introduce us to the universe, acceptionally well done, introduce your threat, the Reapers, all well done.

ME2 - Act 2: Hero's fall, done, hero's return, done, do battle with the enemy once again, overcome the seemingly impossible to uncover a revelation about them.  That revelation: that the Reapers are A) part biological, and perform the cycle to facilitate their version of reproduction.  Done.

ME3 - Act 3: climax for the other two, resolve plot threads, and EXPLOIT THAT REVEALED VULNERABILITY!


It really didn't need any of the "pinnacle of evolution" (a non-starter by the way) nonsense, none of the forced organics versus synthetics after specifically humanizing the primary synthetic race.  None of this pseudo-science after a relatively grounded universe, which jumps the shark tank dividing science fiction and future fantasy on a red, green, and blue coloured motorbike.  None of this was needed.

Why wasn't it needed?  Simple: All of the themes, all of the intellectual depth was already there!  it was all already handled well, and brought up the tough questions in the side stories and missions.  Hell: in ME2, most of the names of the side missions were litterary references.

Let me just list some of the themes already tackled in ME1 and 2's side missions and other universe plots:
- Are humans special?  Should they be treated first?  Or should they take a place beside other races and work togeather?
- Is survivalism a justification for otherwise "evil" behaviour?
- Can AI develope into "life"?  Is that life worthy of the same protection as biological life?  Can the two coexist?
- How much should be sacraficed in the name of scientific advance before a line is drawn?
- Does potential chaos justify an act of genocide?
- The morality of biological warfare.
- The morality of cloning and genetic manipulation.
- Is persuit of a wrong-doer justification enough to endanger or even kill innocents?
- How far are you willing to go or endulge in the name of revenge?
- Is sentamentality sufficient reason to endanger others?
- Can you forgive a people who have past wronged you or others in the name of peace?
- The effect of being granted technology far beyond what a people were ready for
- The rules of warfare and effect of WMDs

And this could go on.  ALL of these are already present, raise the questions, and are tactfully done.  At no point was it so necessary to beat the player over the head, the exposition was there in the narrative.  The central narrative was perfectly good as "all this will be for nought if it's all destroyed before these lessons learned can be applied or actions have reprocussions."

[AresKeith]

It never ask for this  

Modifié par AresKeith, 09 octobre 2012 - 06:41 .

[xAmilli0n]

Totally agree.

[Tomwew]

bringing up a resolved issue (can syntehetics and organics co-exist) in the last ten minutes was a mistake, not giving you the option to disagree, and forcing you to accept the catalyst's beliefs is antithesis to everything mass effect stood for, freedom of choice.

[LucasShark]

Tomwew wrote...

bringing up a resolved issue (can syntehetics and organics co-exist) in the last ten minutes was a mistake, not giving you the option to disagree, and forcing you to accept the catalyst's beliefs is antithesis to everything mass effect stood for, freedom of choice.

Agreed in full: it is precisely what Bioware themselves said it would not be.

[Nachtdaemmerung]

Agreed to that OP...all the good stuff was already there in the first two games, all those moral choices and hard decisions, when Shepard did something bad for the greater good etc.

[N7 Assass1n]

For me, they completed literary suicide with the way they handled the game. Personally, the plot Drew had going, with Dark Energy sounded much more enticing than what was brought forth. The Organic vs Synthetic conflict was shallow and barely presented in the series up until the last ten minutes. It wasn't directly represented (if you want to include the Geth) because the Geth were not under total control of the Reapers it was only the Heretics, which in reality is a small minority of the Geth. I really wish they handled the Reapers with more finesse. No matter what kind of being/construct something is, vulnerability is inevitable. They should of taken the route that Harry Potter took by exploiting Voldemort's weakness. But alas, its not going to be for anything now. Lucas, I really like your insightful threads. You don't utterly bash people for opposing your opinion, your opinion actually has some kind of logical backing and you don't impose your opinion. That, and at least your grammar is at a substantial level as opposed to the general forum.

[grey_wind]

I have a feeling the forced pseudo-intellectualism at the end was also a byproduct of them not having many of the writers from ME1 and 2 who actually could give characters and issues like the ones you mentioned depth. Thus, they may have felt that having this artsy ending was the only way to compensate for the way every conflict that actually had depth previously is turned into a black-and-white caricature of itself:
Alliance vs Cerberus
Geth vs Quarians
Krogan vs Salarians

[Dubozz]

AresKeith wrote...

It never ask for this  

[His Name was HYR!!]

 You kind of lost me where you leapt from "we found out the Reapers are hybrids" to "we found a weakness."

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 09 octobre 2012 - 07:06 .

[xAmilli0n]

N7 Assass1n wrote...

The Organic vs Synthetic conflict was shallow and barely presented in the series up until the last ten minutes. It wasn't directly represented (if you want to include the Geth) because the Geth were not under total control of the Reapers it was only the Heretics, which in reality is a small minority of the Geth.

This is one of the big issue.  The ultimate conflict presnted to you by the Catalyst is non-existent. Even one of the plot points of the game is that there could be peace between synthetics and organics.

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 09 octobre 2012 - 07:06 .

[LucasShark]

N7 Assass1n wrote...

For me, they completed literary suicide with the way they handled the game. Personally, the plot Drew had going, with Dark Energy sounded much more enticing than what was brought forth. The Organic vs Synthetic conflict was shallow and barely presented in the series up until the last ten minutes. It wasn't directly represented (if you want to include the Geth) because the Geth were not under total control of the Reapers it was only the Heretics, which in reality is a small minority of the Geth. I really wish they handled the Reapers with more finesse. No matter what kind of being/construct something is, vulnerability is inevitable. They should of taken the route that Harry Potter took by exploiting Voldemort's weakness. But alas, its not going to be for anything now. Lucas, I really like your insightful threads. You don't utterly bash people for opposing your opinion, your opinion actually has some kind of logical backing and you don't impose your opinion. That, and at least your grammar is at a substantial level as opposed to the general forum.

Thankyou, though I think some of that priase is undeserved: I do bash people, but mostly for things I find utterly stupid.  For example: supporting the idea of a "pinnacle of evolution", which demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is.

[Ironhandjustice]

Top 10 argument in the list of reasons of why endings suck.

It wasn't that hard. We wan archetipical endings with epic scenes.

Nothing more. WE DIDN'T WANT ART

[LucasShark]

xAmilli0n wrote...

N7 Assass1n wrote...

The Organic vs Synthetic conflict was shallow and barely presented in the series up until the last ten minutes. It wasn't directly represented (if you want to include the Geth) because the Geth were not under total control of the Reapers it was only the Heretics, which in reality is a small minority of the Geth.

This is one of the big issue.  The ultimate conflict presnted to you by the Catalyst is non-existent. Even one of the plot points of the game is that there could be peace between synthetics and organics.

I specifically set out to achieve peace in my first run though, and subsequently had an even greater WTF moment.

[N7 Assass1n]

LucasShark wrote...

N7 Assass1n wrote...

For me, they completed literary suicide with the way they handled the game. Personally, the plot Drew had going, with Dark Energy sounded much more enticing than what was brought forth. The Organic vs Synthetic conflict was shallow and barely presented in the series up until the last ten minutes. It wasn't directly represented (if you want to include the Geth) because the Geth were not under total control of the Reapers it was only the Heretics, which in reality is a small minority of the Geth. I really wish they handled the Reapers with more finesse. No matter what kind of being/construct something is, vulnerability is inevitable. They should of taken the route that Harry Potter took by exploiting Voldemort's weakness. But alas, its not going to be for anything now. Lucas, I really like your insightful threads. You don't utterly bash people for opposing your opinion, your opinion actually has some kind of logical backing and you don't impose your opinion. That, and at least your grammar is at a substantial level as opposed to the general forum.

Thankyou, though I think some of that priase is undeserved: I do bash people, but mostly for things I find utterly stupid.  For example: supporting the idea of a "pinnacle of evolution", which demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is.

To be fair, with people like Seival and Dreman running around here, that bashing is justified. Also, a clear misconception about evolution is, there is no actual pinnacle. And evolution is not something that can be forced artificially. Hence why evolution is predominantely organic. The reapers may see themselves as the pinnacle because of their stopping power, and think that is the pinnacle, but they therein lack actual organic rationale ability and just do what they are subsequently programmed to do.

[xAmilli0n]

LucasShark wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

N7 Assass1n wrote...

The Organic vs Synthetic conflict was shallow and barely presented in the series up until the last ten minutes. It wasn't directly represented (if you want to include the Geth) because the Geth were not under total control of the Reapers it was only the Heretics, which in reality is a small minority of the Geth.

This is one of the big issue.  The ultimate conflict presnted to you by the Catalyst is non-existent. Even one of the plot points of the game is that there could be peace between synthetics and organics.

I specifically set out to achieve peace in my first run though, and subsequently had an even greater WTF moment.

I know the feeling.  The scene with the Catalyst takes you out of the moment.  You got the Crucible to the Citadel, all that was left was for it to go *bang* and kill the Reapers.

Instead, we get non-existent conflict, transhuman philosophy (which while interesting, was not addressed during the game enough to be a major plot point), and, to put it bluntly, space magic.

I just think they really needed to keep simple.  Pretty much everything that needed answering at the point had been answered.

[LucasShark]

N7 Assass1n wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

N7 Assass1n wrote...

For me, they completed literary suicide with the way they handled the game. Personally, the plot Drew had going, with Dark Energy sounded much more enticing than what was brought forth. The Organic vs Synthetic conflict was shallow and barely presented in the series up until the last ten minutes. It wasn't directly represented (if you want to include the Geth) because the Geth were not under total control of the Reapers it was only the Heretics, which in reality is a small minority of the Geth. I really wish they handled the Reapers with more finesse. No matter what kind of being/construct something is, vulnerability is inevitable. They should of taken the route that Harry Potter took by exploiting Voldemort's weakness. But alas, its not going to be for anything now. Lucas, I really like your insightful threads. You don't utterly bash people for opposing your opinion, your opinion actually has some kind of logical backing and you don't impose your opinion. That, and at least your grammar is at a substantial level as opposed to the general forum.

Thankyou, though I think some of that priase is undeserved: I do bash people, but mostly for things I find utterly stupid.  For example: supporting the idea of a "pinnacle of evolution", which demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is.

To be fair, with people like Seival and Dreman running around here, that bashing is justified. Also, a clear misconception about evolution is, there is no actual pinnacle. And evolution is not something that can be forced artificially. Hence why evolution is predominantely organic. The reapers may see themselves as the pinnacle because of their stopping power, and think that is the pinnacle, but they therein lack actual organic rationale ability and just do what they are subsequently programmed to do.

I wouldn't say it's the exclusive realm of organic life: as evolutionary principals are used all the time in software design and design of vehicles and so forth.  At its most basic Evolution is defined as change over time with variation and a selective elimination factor.

[3DandBeyond]

LucasShark wrote...

The truly sad part of all this is in my view: the series' core plot didn't need any of this pseudo-science or inept philosophizing.  Here's the structure which could have worked fine:

ME1 - Act 1: Introduce your hero, Shepard, introduce the supporting characters, the crew, introduce us to the universe, acceptionally well done, introduce your threat, the Reapers, all well done.

ME2 - Act 2: Hero's fall, done, hero's return, done, do battle with the enemy once again, overcome the seemingly impossible to uncover a revelation about them.  That revelation: that the Reapers are A) part biological, and perform the cycle to facilitate their version of reproduction.  Done.

ME3 - Act 3: climax for the other two, resolve plot threads, and EXPLOIT THAT REVEALED VULNERABILITY!


It really didn't need any of the "pinnacle of evolution" (a non-starter by the way) nonsense, none of the forced organics versus synthetics after specifically humanizing the primary synthetic race.  None of this pseudo-science after a relatively grounded universe, which jumps the shark tank dividing science fiction and future fantasy on a red, green, and blue coloured motorbike.  None of this was needed.

Why wasn't it needed?  Simple: All of the themes, all of the intellectual depth was already there!  it was all already handled well, and brought up the tough questions in the side stories and missions.  Hell: in ME2, most of the names of the side missions were litterary references.

Let me just list some of the themes already tackled in ME1 and 2's side missions and other universe plots:
- Are humans special?  Should they be treated first?  Or should they take a place beside other races and work togeather?
- Is survivalism a justification for otherwise "evil" behaviour?
- Can AI develope into "life"?  Is that life worthy of the same protection as biological life?  Can the two coexist?
- How much should be sacraficed in the name of scientific advance before a line is drawn?
- Does potential chaos justify an act of genocide?
- The morality of biological warfare.
- The morality of cloning and genetic manipulation.
- Is persuit of a wrong-doer justification enough to endanger or even kill innocents?
- How far are you willing to go or endulge in the name of revenge?
- Is sentamentality sufficient reason to endanger others?
- Can you forgive a people who have past wronged you or others in the name of peace?
- The effect of being granted technology far beyond what a people were ready for
- The rules of warfare and effect of WMDs

And this could go on.  ALL of these are already present, raise the questions, and are tactfully done.  At no point was it so necessary to beat the player over the head, the exposition was there in the narrative.  The central narrative was perfectly good as "all this will be for nought if it's all destroyed before these lessons learned can be applied or actions have reprocussions."

Great thread and some really good points here.  The ending existed within the game and could have been terrific including actual gameplay at the end rather than a conversation.

[Dubozz]

One Last Plea - Do the Right Thing was closed? wow just wow bioware...Every time i thought i get over the endings and me3 something like this happends, anger and disappointment again. Wish I never finished the game. ****ing ending.

upd. New thread got closed too, oh well...i'll better go play Pandaria..

[N7 Assass1n]

LucasShark wrote...

N7 Assass1n wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

N7 Assass1n wrote...

For me, they completed literary suicide with the way they handled the game. Personally, the plot Drew had going, with Dark Energy sounded much more enticing than what was brought forth. The Organic vs Synthetic conflict was shallow and barely presented in the series up until the last ten minutes. It wasn't directly represented (if you want to include the Geth) because the Geth were not under total control of the Reapers it was only the Heretics, which in reality is a small minority of the Geth. I really wish they handled the Reapers with more finesse. No matter what kind of being/construct something is, vulnerability is inevitable. They should of taken the route that Harry Potter took by exploiting Voldemort's weakness. But alas, its not going to be for anything now. Lucas, I really like your insightful threads. You don't utterly bash people for opposing your opinion, your opinion actually has some kind of logical backing and you don't impose your opinion. That, and at least your grammar is at a substantial level as opposed to the general forum.

Thankyou, though I think some of that priase is undeserved: I do bash people, but mostly for things I find utterly stupid.  For example: supporting the idea of a "pinnacle of evolution", which demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is.

To be fair, with people like Seival and Dreman running around here, that bashing is justified. Also, a clear misconception about evolution is, there is no actual pinnacle. And evolution is not something that can be forced artificially. Hence why evolution is predominantely organic. The reapers may see themselves as the pinnacle because of their stopping power, and think that is the pinnacle, but they therein lack actual organic rationale ability and just do what they are subsequently programmed to do.

I wouldn't say it's the exclusive realm of organic life: as evolutionary principals are used all the time in software design and design of vehicles and so forth.  At its most basic Evolution is defined as change over time with variation and a selective elimination factor.

That is true, but said thing is an evolution from organic concepts (I.E. Technology we use today). Most of the time, when people are referred to evolution, they think of Human evolution. Other instances can be like, "The evolution of Hybrid cars". There are other ways to express evolution on a literary basis (The definition of it per say) but evolution as a whole is Predominately organic related. Then again, I'm not disagreeing with you, you bring up some valid points.

Let's just stick to the plot of ME rather than fiddle with rudimentary Biochemistry

[LucasShark]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I have a feeling the forced pseudo-intellectualism at the end was also a byproduct of them not having many of the writers from ME1 and 2 who actually could give characters and issues like the ones you mentioned depth. Thus, they may have felt that having this artsy ending was the only way to compensate for the way every conflict that actually had depth previously is turned into a black-and-white caricature of itself:
Alliance vs Cerberus
Geth vs Quarians
Krogan vs Salarians

I agree that none of those issues were handled very well at all. Massive bias and retcons everywhere!

I don't think this one is brought up that often: but why exactly are the Krogan so pissed with the Salarians?  They developed the weapon, but the Turians deployed it.  So yeah even that wasn't handled with much subtlty.

[RogueBot]

The ending felt inconsistent with the rest of the trilogy, and it was so poorly done that it actually reminded me that it was just another video game, not some great work of art, which is ironic considering how they look down their nose at "videogamey" elements such as boss fights and have defended the ending as a work of art.

[xAmilli0n]

LucasShark wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I have a feeling the forced pseudo-intellectualism at the end was also a byproduct of them not having many of the writers from ME1 and 2 who actually could give characters and issues like the ones you mentioned depth. Thus, they may have felt that having this artsy ending was the only way to compensate for the way every conflict that actually had depth previously is turned into a black-and-white caricature of itself:
Alliance vs Cerberus
Geth vs Quarians
Krogan vs Salarians

I agree that none of those issues were handled very well at all. Massive bias and retcons everywhere!

I don't think this one is brought up that often: but why exactly are the Krogan so pissed with the Salarians?  They developed the weapon, but the Turians deployed it.  So yeah even that wasn't handled with much subtlty.

I figured this had to do with the Salarian's "uplifting" them to fight the Rachni, and then creating the genophage to control them afterward.  Meaning, the Krogan resent the Salarian's for using them as tools.  That's my take on it, if it was expressed well in game, I don't remember, its been months since I've played ME3 SP.

[LucasShark]

xAmilli0n wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I have a feeling the forced pseudo-intellectualism at the end was also a byproduct of them not having many of the writers from ME1 and 2 who actually could give characters and issues like the ones you mentioned depth. Thus, they may have felt that having this artsy ending was the only way to compensate for the way every conflict that actually had depth previously is turned into a black-and-white caricature of itself:
Alliance vs Cerberus
Geth vs Quarians
Krogan vs Salarians

I agree that none of those issues were handled very well at all. Massive bias and retcons everywhere!

I don't think this one is brought up that often: but why exactly are the Krogan so pissed with the Salarians?  They developed the weapon, but the Turians deployed it.  So yeah even that wasn't handled with much subtlty.

I figured this had to do with the Salarian's "uplifting" them to fight the Rachni, and then creating the genophage to control them afterward.  Meaning, the Krogan resent the Salarian's for using them as tools.  That's my take on it, if it was expressed well in game, I don't remember, its been months since I've played ME3 SP.

No offense to those who love the Krogan more than I: but the majority of them don't seem that discerning when it comes to portioning blame for their state of being.