236 réponses à ce sujet

[xAmilli0n]

RogueBot wrote...

The ending felt inconsistent with the rest of the trilogy, and it was so poorly done that it actually reminded me that it was just another video game, not some great work of art, which is ironic considering how they look down their nose at "videogamey" elements such as boss fights and have defended the ending as a work of art.

The greatness of ME comes from the universe they built, the characters they developed, and the conflicts that spanned 3 games.  The ending segment of ME3 unnecessarily broke a lot of what was built and resolved during the series.

As for not wanting to be videogamey, I just have to point at the reaper fight on Rannoch.  That's about videogamey as it gets.

[LucasShark]

xAmilli0n wrote...

RogueBot wrote...

The ending felt inconsistent with the rest of the trilogy, and it was so poorly done that it actually reminded me that it was just another video game, not some great work of art, which is ironic considering how they look down their nose at "videogamey" elements such as boss fights and have defended the ending as a work of art.

The greatness of ME comes from the universe they built, the characters they developed, and the conflicts that spanned 3 games.  The ending segment of ME3 unnecessarily broke a lot of what was built and resolved during the series.

As for not wanting to be videogamey, I just have to point at the reaper fight on Rannoch.  That's about videogamey as it gets.

Personally I'd go one further and say our current endings actively destroy the universe which was created.

[xAmilli0n]

LucasShark wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

The greatness of ME comes from the universe they built, the characters they developed, and the conflicts that spanned 3 games.  The ending segment of ME3 unnecessarily broke a lot of what was built and resolved during the series.

As for not wanting to be videogamey, I just have to point at the reaper fight on Rannoch.  That's about videogamey as it gets.

Personally I'd go one further and say our current endings actively destroy the universe which was created.

Then you are bolder than I lol

I do believe it is salvagaeable.  Now if this requires retcon and a canonized ending, or an entirely different continuity, I don't know, but I think the ME universe is too rich to be written-off.  At least this is my hope.  My disappointment and disagreement with Bioware's decisions in ME3 don't change the fact that I love the universe they created.

[BearlyHere]

Ironhandjustice wrote...

Top 10 argument in the list of reasons of why endings suck.

It wasn't that hard. We wan archetipical endings with epic scenes.

Nothing more. WE DIDN'T WANT ART

We wanted a video game. That's why we spent our money, to get a video game with a video game ending. If we had wanted a vid, we could have waited for the ME movie. All this ill will could have been avoided, and it makes no sense. And the irony is they're casting off the fanbase that likes RPGs in favor of the easy shooter players, but we're the ones more likely to buy their overpriced trinkets. I wonder how many ME hoodies and sneakers are sitting in their warehouse unpurchased? There was no reason for this, other than a perfect storm of bad descisions. Maybe someone at EA will understand, but I'm willing to bet that they're not gamers either.

[Mcfly616]

I'm not going to debate the topic, as I've done many times before. But I will say OP....to the part about the synth vs organics conflict and all that. The Geth were deliberately humanized in order to make the ending choice more difficult.

That's it. Otherwise, everybody would shoot the tube

[JBPBRC]

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Geth were deliberately humanized in order to make the ending choice more difficult.

That's it. Otherwise, everybody would shoot the tube

I'm not so sure. Keep in mind the original scrapped ending wasn't about choosing to red/blue/green all synthetic life, it was about letting the Reapers slushie up humanity to save the universe, or killing them off and making your own fate. The Geth really had nothing to do with it when the humanization of them began in ME2.

[xAmilli0n]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I'm not going to debate the topic, as I've done many times before. But I will say OP....to the part about the synth vs organics conflict and all that. The Geth were deliberately humanized in order to make the ending choice more difficult.

That's it. Otherwise, everybody would shoot the tube

This made me think of a something.  What if you didn't activate Legion or killed the Geth on Rannoch (both justifiable choices)?  Does this make the Synth vs Organic argument that the Catalyst brings up more relevent?  Does the Catalyst actually have a point in this case?

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 09 octobre 2012 - 09:11 .

[johnj1979]

It is not the best way that the serise could of ending.

For me the story plays out like Chhinese Whispers or like the way Star Trek Enterprse ended with someone on the holodeck, for me it is NOT a now in that time story, it a story after the fact.

I think that is the only I can explain Mass Effrect 3 because of ALL the plot holes and what seems to be inaccurate facts on the people and events of the Mass Effect Universe.

[BassStyles]

I'm curious, has anybody made any comparisons to the Lost TV series and Mass Effect before? I feel they are very similar in building a great cast of characters, great story with much intrigue, and then dropping the ball in the end (ME3 = Season 6 of Lost)? Given much of the BSN actually watched Lost that is.

[grey_wind]

LucasShark wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I have a feeling the forced pseudo-intellectualism at the end was also a byproduct of them not having many of the writers from ME1 and 2 who actually could give characters and issues like the ones you mentioned depth. Thus, they may have felt that having this artsy ending was the only way to compensate for the way every conflict that actually had depth previously is turned into a black-and-white caricature of itself:
Alliance vs Cerberus
Geth vs Quarians
Krogan vs Salarians

I agree that none of those issues were handled very well at all. Massive bias and retcons everywhere!

I don't think this one is brought up that often: but why exactly are the Krogan so pissed with the Salarians?  They developed the weapon, but the Turians deployed it.  So yeah even that wasn't handled with much subtlty.

I can get the Krogan being more mad at the Salarians than the Turians, since the Salarains were the reason they were neutered while the Turians were simply the tools used by the Salarians.
What I don't like is how in ME3 the genophage is suddenly retconned from something that stabilizes the Krogan population into "IT"S KILLING OFF THE KROGAN!". Now both the genophage and the Dalatrass's refusal to cure it come across as spiteful and unnecessarily evil (especially if Wrex is alive), rather than pragmatic. It turns a previously grey issue into a contrived good vs evil scenario (unless Wreave is the sole ruler of Tuchanka).

[On a side note, I also disliked how everything Wrex said about the genophage not holding the Krogan back but rather the Krogans' own nature being responisble for their current state was thrown out in ME3 so both Wrex and Wreave could say "I WANTZ A CURE FOR GENOPHAGE!"
It would have made a hell of a lot more sense if Wrex merely demanded that the infertility rate for the Genophae be raised from 0.001 to 0.003%, just so the Krogan could have something to hope for. It would have been a lot more consistent with his character, though then you lose the entire conflict being as black and white as it is.]

[MetioricTest]

I agree.

Even if they had done the Catalyst exceptionally well, the series did't need him

[Masha Potato]

i can't even tell what the core plot was after all the nonsense

[upsettingshorts]

That's why I take one look at people who claim organics vs. synthetics was "a major theme from the start" and have a hard time not making a grumpy face.

I don't know how it could have been without undermining almost everything that happened with the Geth and Quarians, or EDI.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 octobre 2012 - 10:33 .

[Wayning_Star]

The MEU has a technological black hole. There is only one way to unplug that from the story, and it's about the use of technology as the means to compete in the class of nature that is being consumed. Organics utilize technology to overcome their inability to survives in the reality of deep space and interaction with other organic species. The technology overran the organic cultures that utilize that technology.

How would organic races, advance enough without technology to discover and utilize resources in the mass effect universe? It could/cannot be done. The first race to come above nature to a degree that permits them to advance and utilize resources on that scale, were the Leviathan, or so it seems. Their tech was the jumping point for technology to advance to the point of gaining it's own identity within that realm. Once that happens, then the technology becomes a competitor with the organics.

After that occurs, then they are the apex race within the MEU and their survival relies on the organics to suppliment their existence, instead of the other way around. The bright side, if any, is that their programmed initially represented some form of collusion between organics and synthetics as life forms, seperate but understood to be equal if not superior to their organic counterparts. Organics created their own problems by over utilization of synthetic constructs as their means to survive in the MEU and beyond, if that day ever came.

In the end of the reapers thread, there is only a chance of completion of the organics ability to survive in the MEU, and one is to refuse the idea of technology as the modus of organic evolution. Organics must make that choice, the machines/synthetics have NO choice, as they're inadertantly created by organics as part of their form of evolution. Organics ARE the machines..not the other way around.

weird, but there it is..

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

grey_wind wrote...

I have a feeling the forced pseudo-intellectualism at the end was also a byproduct of them not having many of the writers from ME1 and 2 who actually could give characters and issues like the ones you mentioned depth. Thus, they may have felt that having this artsy ending was the only way to compensate for the way every conflict that actually had depth previously is turned into a black-and-white caricature of itself:
Alliance vs Cerberus
Geth vs Quarians
Krogan vs Salarians

Aside from the fact that the first two were completely black and white to begin with and their transition to grey is practically a retcon.

[3DandBeyond]

Dubozz wrote...

One Last Plea - Do the Right Thing was closed? wow just wow bioware...Every time i thought i get over the endings and me3 something like this happends, anger and disappointment again. Wish I never finished the game. ****ing ending.

upd. New thread got closed too, oh well...i'll better go play Pandaria..

Closed things go hand in hand I guess.  Threads and perhaps minds IMO.  No introspection, no consideration, no heart, no soul, replaced by tech.

[3DandBeyond]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I'm not going to debate the topic, as I've done many times before. But I will say OP....to the part about the synth vs organics conflict and all that. The Geth were deliberately humanized in order to make the ending choice more difficult.

That's it. Otherwise, everybody would shoot the tube

Sure true as was the fact that the torso must remain in rubble like a piece of garbage and EDI and the geth must die.  There is no canon in Mass Effect became a rallying cry for making sure that anything that felt canon had just enough added to it to make it not canon.  It's why the canon LI is made non-canon (the only LI you can have for 3 games will not earn you a paramour achievement for all 3 games).  Don't misunderstand me I'm not saying the best LI, but the one that can be there in all 3 games for both sexes.

What they did was try too hard in ME3 to make nothing be canon, even when it was.  So they had to make sure it wasn't something you'd want to pick.

[DWH1982]

LucasShark wrote...

- The morality of cloning and genetic manipulation.

You know one of the things that really bugs me about ME3?

After all of the lessons - and Mordin's warnings - about what happens when you artificially advance a race by tinkering with their progress, we're supposed to somewhow think that synthesis is the "best" ending.

I'm sorry, but no. Just... no. The nonsense of the crucible being able to somehow cause that aside, if it's to happen (and that's an awfully big "if") let it happen naturally instead of forcing it.

[kyban]

Loving this thread.

I asked myself just the other night, what if there were no AI's? What if the laws of the galaxy were much more strict about creating VI's and AI's? ... or what if, there was simply no interest?

Would the cycle even proceed?

[Cassandra Saturn]

it's not like if an company comes in say, "hey, we see what you did to Bioware. gonna have to slap those money-eating hands off Bioware, EA" instead of that, we'd see an big publisher coming in like hell and grabbed Bioware out of EA's hands. trust me, most of fans dream of that day when Bioware is free from EA to pursue their own games they were allowed to.

just saying

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

JBPBRC wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Geth were deliberately humanized in order to make the ending choice more difficult.

That's it. Otherwise, everybody would shoot the tube

I'm not so sure. Keep in mind the original scrapped ending wasn't about choosing to red/blue/green all synthetic life, it was about letting the Reapers slushie up humanity to save the universe, or killing them off and making your own fate. The Geth really had nothing to do with it when the humanization of them began in ME2.

True about the original, but it probably wouldn't have been that simple in the end otherwise everyone would simply kill them and make our own fate anyway I think this is how it would have gone down:

Choice 1: Slushie up humanity and become a reaper to save the galaxy from dark energy.

Choice 2: Destroy the reapers, but since the Dark Energy problem originates with usage of element zero usage this would mean the beam from the Crucible would also destroy anything that used element zero as a fail safe, that would mean all biotics, including the Asari.

Then you would have watched the forums rage on March 8th when the Liaramancers either had to die and take all of their own race with them or kill her and all of her kind.

Again an ending where beating the game would be losing. You know in your hearts this is what we would have gotten, because otherwise everyone would choose to destroy.

Honestly I hated both endings with a passion. They should have just given us a good old fashioned videogamey ending.

[DWH1982]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Honestly I hated both endings with a passion. They should have just given us a good old fashioned videogamey ending.

Yeah, pretty much this.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the triumphant, some would say "corny" endings of the previous games were something that I loved about the series. In ME1, you always had a triumphant ending. In ME2, it was at least an option, with varying degrees of bittersweet depending on how much of your squad/crew died. But it was still there, if you did everything right.

I don't understand what's so wrong with having that kind of ending. The endings we have could work for another franchise, but not for Mass Effect.

[yukon fire]

Op, I honestly don't know how they could screw up such an easy "layup" of story so badly unintentionally.