303 réponses à ce sujet

[snackrat]

Any of the turians can be female if you want. Word of Bioware is that, not being mammals, male and female turians look and sound the same. I don't think any of them were explicitly stated to be either gender, beyond users saying "I really like TSol, HIS powers are great" and so on.

Headcanon it.

[Rebel_Raven]

ntrisley wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...
Also overlooked the fact that there has NEVER been a new female soldier. Nevermind a compeditor to the destroyer, or krogans.

So where's the male competitor for the Shadow, Demolisher, Fury, or the Asari Justicar/Vanguard/Adept? It's not until this DLC that we have a male character with Stasis...and it's a freaking Volus.
Heck--we're also just getting a male character with Sabotage too in the form of the Turian Engineer (not yet released).

Door swings both ways. The simple fact of the matter is that it's "sexist" when it affects you, but it's "gender equality" when it doesn't.

Not everyone wants to play the single gender characters. I know I certainly have no bloody interest in playing the Shadow or Fury most of the time, and the only reason I'll play the Demolisher is that the Supply Pylon is too good to pass up.

It's why I'm a very big proponent for them allowing us to get some measure of customization for the class archetypes in allowing us to "Retrain" and ditch a single kit skill and replace it with another kit skill from the same general purview (i.e. Concussive Shot for Carnage, as we saw with the BF3 Soldier) and allow us to have the option to have an "Alternate Appearance" as well for the various kits.

Something like that would go a long way towards "evening things out".

I can't cover every last wrong in the game. I've mentioned this to you before the last time you bludgeoned me with the same lines you've just offered up. 
Everyone fighting for changes need to focus a bit. If you see something wrong, speak up. Don't smash me over the head coz I care to speak up, and you don't. Infact if you did speak up, I'd say odds are better that they'd make a male version of each woman far far faster than the other way around.
You'd certainly likely get more support from like minded individuals.

I'm well aware that you dislike playing female characters. That's perfectly fine. I still stand by the fact you have a ton of them to play, especially with -14- new ones coming with this DLC. A lot of them have new, flashy NEW features, and game mechanics!

And yeah, not everyone wants to play single gender characters. You don't. I don't. We're in the same boat. We want the play styles from the other genders. 
Sadly, single gender characters are the route Bioware's taken.
I'm working with that path. I doubt Bioware's going to make, practically, an entire new game to put your idea into action, as nice as it is. Further, it might cramp their money income with less character cards for people to go for.

[Rebel_Raven]

Karsciyin wrote...

Any of the turians can be female if you want. Word of Bioware is that, not being mammals, male and female turians look and sound the same. I don't think any of them were explicitly stated to be either gender, beyond users saying "I really like TSol, HIS powers are great" and so on.

Headcanon it.

Gunna need source on this info.

[Najarati]

Rebel_Raven wrote...
She may not need AR, or marksman, but her grenades are finite. Without them, she's -relying- on weapons, and in her hands they're no better than in the hands of most every other non weapons platforms class. That'd be my point on her.

They're finite because they're powerful.  This is a balancing factor and has nothing to do with gender.  With grenade gear and ammo packs you should almost never be without a grenade or two unless you're simply throwing everything you have out in every single encounter, which is completely unnecessary.  Passing by crates or your pylon on occasion also helps mitigate this limitation.

Rebel_Raven wrote...
FQE? I love her. She's my go to class, and favorite, but it's not for her raw power that's for sure. She's a wonderfully flexible class, but she's not above needing weapons to kill things in a timely manner, even -with- the post patch fixes.

Using only part of your abilities (I include your gun as part of your arsenal) is intentionally limiting yourself.  Even weapon-leaning classes like the human soldier and turian soldier still use powers.  My FQI (a weapon-leaning class as far as I'm concerned) makes -heavy- use of Sabotage to compliment the Crusader.  Not using your powers as a weapon-leaning class is as silly as not using your weapon as a power-leaning class.

Simply put, it's unrealistic to expect -any- class to never have to fire a shot to get things done.  Mass Effect is still a shooter; it goes with the territory.  Everyone gets a firearm for a reason whether it's simply to prime your powers or to tear down your enemies.

Rebel_Raven wrote...
And there in lies another problem I have with the game. Most female characters just aren't getting any new guns, or old ones buffed worth using since most are cooldown conscious, and guns get heavy, and mods can make them heavier these days.

This doesn't make sense to me, Raven.  I didn't realize female characters couldn't use certain guns.  Mind you, my QFI uses the Crusader, which is one of the heaviest weapons in the game.  She does just fine with it.  In fact, it's her powerset which makes it work because of Sabotage's stun.  On top of that, if the Crusader doesn't do the job the backfire from Sabotage often will.  I love the synergy here.

Also, my QFE currently uses the Eagle; a very light pistol which has been buffed repeatedly.  I've also used the Carnifex, Talon, and Falcon on her for various purposes.

Rebel_Raven wrote...
And even with HFSol, we only have -one- female soldier? After ALL this time not a new one was added? I mean come -on-. How am I supposed to not notice that?

The QFI doesn't fall under the "soldier" label, but she can take down armored targets including Atlases and Primes very quickly.   To wit, Sticky Grenade and Sabotage combined with a hard-hitting weapon like the Crusader will put the hurt on them, even in gold.  My point is heavy-hitting, heavy-weapon using classes that are female -are- present.

That said, my guess is you specifically want a female soldier of some kind that isn't the original human female solider.  A female Destroyer, perhaps, or something like a female Kroguard?  Sure, I understand that and they would be most excellent to have; however, I wouldn't let the lack of these classes ruin your fun.

Rebel_Raven wrote...
FQSol? Could've been easy to allow, no? Why is he a guy? That's my question.

And it's a good question.  Frankly, I was hoping for a female Quarian Marksman as well.  Perhaps they made the class male to appeal to the Kal'Reegar fans.  I don't know.  The Krogan Shaman seem liked a good opportunity to include an Eve-like character, too.  Maybe we will still get them, maybe we won't.  In the end, I can't tell you how to feel on the matter, but you seem to have this inflated standard for male characters when I feel the female characters meet the standard of "as effective and as powerful as their brothers-in-arms" with gusto.

Regardless, I will continue to wreck shop with our female war heroes.

Modifié par Najarati, 11 octobre 2012 - 03:55 .

[LadyAlekto]

I dont know bout op and stopped at the rant, but i consider my ghost a woman, a badass gruffy turian girl taking names and kicking ass

(on the other hand i can understand the desire to not play as a guy, its effin annoying, its a sausagefest in every game and the kickass woman mostly get reduced to pinup dollys [ashley])

Modifié par ShadedPhoenix, 11 octobre 2012 - 04:05 .

[Rebel_Raven]

Najarati wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...
She may not need AR, or marksman, but her grenades are finite. Without them, she's -relying- on weapons, and in her hands they're no better than in the hands of most every other non weapons platforms class. That'd be my point on her.

They're finite because they're powerful.  This is a balancing factor and has nothing to do with gender.  With grenade gear and ammo packs you should almost never be without a grenade or two unless you're simply throwing everything you have out in every single encounter, which is completely unnecessary.  Passing by crates or your pylon on occasion also helps mitigate this limitation.

I never blamed the lack of AR/marksman on gender, I'm blaming it on the fact she's not a weapons platform.

I dunno why, but bosses have this nasty habbit of surviving 7 grenades specced for damage or shields, and the techbursts in between (If they even go off. hard to tell with arc grenades), then I gotta shoot them. Luckily I get to carry a typhoon without my demolisher's bum being bitten by it.

And yes, running around collecing grenades helps. So does thermal clip packs.

All I'm saying is that she's a potent fighter, but she's not a weapons platform. When not using grenades, she uses firearms, and when she does, she's not really any better than anyone else at it.

She's an excellent class, but she's not gunna replace a destroyer with a heavy weapon.

Najarati wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...
FQE? I love her. She's my go to class, and favorite, but it's not for her raw power that's for sure. She's a wonderfully flexible class, but she's not above needing weapons to kill things in a timely manner, even -with- the post patch fixes.

Using only part of your abilities (I include your gun as part of your arsenal) is intentionally limiting yourself.  Even weapon-leaning classes like the human soldier and turian soldier still use powers.  My FQI (a weapon-leaning class as far as I'm concerned) makes -heavy- use of Sabotage to compliment the Crusader.  Not using your powers as a weapon-leaning class is as silly as not using your weapon as a power-leaning class.

Simply put, it's unrealistic to expect -any- class to never have to fire a shot to get things done.  Mass Effect is still a shooter; it goes with the territory.  Everyone gets a firearm for a reason whether it's simply to prime your powers or to tear down your enemies.

Who says I'm not using my powers? I go light, packing little more than a locust (with HVB), and acolyte, and spam my powers, and use turrets (Specced AP ammo, rocket, and shock) to catch spawns, watch my back, or snipe.

I spec 6/6/6/4/4 even.

But I'd be crazy to go in with an ineffective weapon, like the GPR, and expect to take down a boss. Weapons are a part of the class no matter what.

And lugging a claymore with my HFSol? AR didn't get hit that bad weirdly.
Heavy weapons on a QFI? I dunno how you manage to use sabotage often unless you're burning consumeables to make it work. I don't beleive in burning consumeables to make something work, I believe in using consumeables to make something that works work better.

Najarati wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...
And there in lies another problem I have with the game. Most female characters just aren't getting any new guns, or old ones buffed worth using since most are cooldown conscious, and guns get heavy, and mods can make them heavier these days.

This doesn't make sense to me, Raven.  I didn't realize female characters couldn't use certain guns.  Mind you, my QFI uses the Crusader, which is one of the heaviest weapons in the game.  She does just fine with it.  In fact, it's her powerset which makes it work because of Sabotage's stun.  On top of that, if the Crusader doesn't do the job the backfire from Sabotage often will.  I love the synergy here.

Also, my QFE currently uses the Eagle; a very light pistol which has been buffed repeatedly.  I've also used the Carnifex, Talon, and Falcon on her for various purposes.

Again, I don't know how you're making QFI work with such a heavy weapon to use Sabotage often unless you're burning consumeables to make it work. I already posted my views on that.

Like I said earlier, my QFE often runs with the locust with heat sink, and HVB with an acolyte. Travel light with a decent, controllable weapon. I might swap to eagle. What do you think? Does the Eagle II out perform a Tempest X, or locust X? I wouldn't mind an opinion on it other than my own.

Najarati wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...
And even with HFSol, we only have -one- female soldier? After ALL this time not a new one was added? I mean come -on-. How am I supposed to not notice that?

Najarati wrote...
The QFI doesn't fall under the "soldier" label, but she can take down armored targets including Atlases and Primes very quickly.   To wit, Sticky Grenade and Sabotage combined with a hard-hitting weapon like the Crusader will put the hurt on them, even in gold.  My point is heavy-hitting, heavy-weapon using classes that are female -are- present.

That said, my guess is you specifically want a female soldier of some kind that isn't the original human female solider.  A female Destroyer or female Kroguard?  Sure, I understand that and they would be most excellent to have; however, I wouldn't let the lack of these classes ruin your fun.

As grand as she is at playing soldier, she's still a glass cannon.

Unfortunately pretty much every last woman in MP is a glass cannon and that does ruin my fun. I want something DIFFIRENT!

Which is why I really want the heavy duty women that aren't glass cannons. I wanna be able to not have to fight from cover now and then without worrying that some marauder'll make me a grease spot the instant I poke my head out every now and then. I want a night invulnerable female character that can mow down bosses as well as any male character can.

Right now, I'm using the same classes, and the same weapons over and over and over again, and what does Bioware do? Cater to the heavy weapons classes which are kinda absent with women.
Add more male classes. Heap the attention on them.

Funny, I thought this was the progressive universe of mass effect where women could do things like be heavily armored, heavy defense, heavy weapons users? Huh doesn't work like that in MP.... unless you're a guy.

Unles you can tell me straight to my face that the Collector weapons are both light, and viable in all difficulties without filling them with certain mods, and consumeables, I'm gunna have to stand by my feelings on that particular matter.

Rebel_Raven wrote...
FQSol? Could've been easy to allow, no? Why is he a guy? That's my question.

And it's a good question.  Frankly, I was hoping for a female Quarian Marksman as well.  Perhaps they made the class male to appeal to the Kal'Reegar fans.  I don't know.  The Krogan Shaman seem liked a good opportunity to include an Eve-like character, too.  Maybe we will still get them, maybe we won't.  In the end, I can't tell you how to feel on the matter, but you seem to have this inflated standard for male characters when I feel the female characters meet the standard of "as effective and as powerful as their brothers-in-arms" with gusto.

Regardless, I will continue to wreck shop with our female war heroes.

Like I said, our current females aren't garbage. I'm saying Bioware's reluctance to build on their numbers with a variety of other playstyles as opposed to pad the hell out of male classes, and abandon the spirit of the single player universe is utterly revolting, and is affecting my ability to enjoy the game.

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 11 octobre 2012 - 04:34 .

[Cthulu_Cuddler]

Najarati wrote...
Simply put, it's unrealistic to expect -any- class to never have to fire a shot to get things done..

Apparently you've never played a 6/6/6/4/4 Fury-I assure you it's possible

[Cyonan]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Again, I don't know how you're making QFI work with such a heavy weapon to use Sabotage often unless you're burning consumeables to make it work. I already posted my views on that.

Like I said earlier, my QFE often runs with the locust with heat sink, and HVB with an acolyte. Travel light with a decent, controllable weapon. I might swap to eagle. What do you think? Does the Eagle II out perform a Tempest X, or locust X? I wouldn't mind an opinion on it other than my own.

Cloak and immediately use Sabotage, even if you aren't using it to do damage. Cloak's cooldown will overwrite Sabotage's, and if you spent next to no time in Cloak you get a 3 second cooldown regardless of weight.

Unless you have a habit of using up most of Tactical Cloak's duration, then you can run with even the Javelin and not have too bad of cooldowns. As I love single shot snipers, I always run with my Javelin X on my QFI.

[Rebel_Raven]

Cyonan wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Again, I don't know how you're making QFI work with such a heavy weapon to use Sabotage often unless you're burning consumeables to make it work. I already posted my views on that.

Like I said earlier, my QFE often runs with the locust with heat sink, and HVB with an acolyte. Travel light with a decent, controllable weapon. I might swap to eagle. What do you think? Does the Eagle II out perform a Tempest X, or locust X? I wouldn't mind an opinion on it other than my own.

Cloak and immediately use Sabotage, even if you aren't using it to do damage. Cloak's cooldown will overwrite Sabotage's, and if you spent next to no time in Cloak you get a 3 second cooldown regardless of weight.

Unless you have a habit of using up most of Tactical Cloak's duration, then you can run with even the Javelin and not have too bad of cooldowns. As I love single shot snipers, I always run with my Javelin X on my QFI.

Interesting! Very interesting! Never thought about it this way. It might play in some with my Shadow's combat style, too.

I don't suppose the Kishok is interchangeable with the Javelin, though? *Curses the RNG store for keeping the javvy from me for so long.*

I find it absurd, further I don't know why, but I like the kishok even though it goes against my usual more dakka sensibilities.
Also I like the Argus for some reason, and I hate burst fire weapons. lol And I hated it in SP, too.

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 11 octobre 2012 - 05:08 .

[Cyonan]

Rebel_Raven wrote...
Interesting! Very interesting! Never thought about it this way. It might play in some with my Shadow's combat style, too.

I don't suppose the Kishok is interchangeable with the Javelin, though? *Curses the RNG store for keeping the javvy from me for so long.*

I find it absurd, further I don't know why, but I like the kishok even though it goes against my usual more dakka sensibilities.
Also I like the Argus for some reason, and I hate burst fire weapons. lol And I hated it in SP, too.

The Kishock can work, but it's one of those weapons that you really should be hosting, or else you'll end up randomly missing half your shots.

It would actually probably be a little better since it ignores the shield gate.

[Rebel_Raven]

Cyonan wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...
Interesting! Very interesting! Never thought about it this way. It might play in some with my Shadow's combat style, too.

I don't suppose the Kishok is interchangeable with the Javelin, though? *Curses the RNG store for keeping the javvy from me for so long.*

I find it absurd, further I don't know why, but I like the kishok even though it goes against my usual more dakka sensibilities.
Also I like the Argus for some reason, and I hate burst fire weapons. lol And I hated it in SP, too.

The Kishock can work, but it's one of those weapons that you really should be hosting, or else you'll end up randomly missing half your shots.

It would actually probably be a little better since it ignores the shield gate.

It's another weird thing. I don't really miss that bad using it off host all the time. Not due to lag anyhow. Nowhere near as bad as the Graal.

I still miss a fair bit coz I have trouble aiming where the enemy will be instead of where they are when they're charging, though.

But it's nice to know it works with the strategy.

[Najarati]

Rebel_Raven wrote...
All I'm saying is that she's a potent fighter, but she's not a weapons platform. When not using grenades, she uses firearms, and when she does, she's not really any better than anyone else at it.

She's an excellent class, but she's not gunna replace a destroyer with a heavy weapon.

I see a lot of praise for the Destroyer and he's a good class, but he's hardly the end-all be-all of multiplayer.  I've beaten plenty of Destoyers in score with the Demolisher, I've also had Destroyers beat me in score as well; in the latter cases I was either having a bad match or the Destroyer player was simply better than me, but it wasn't because my Demolisher wasn't capable.

Rebel_Raven wrote...
Like I said earlier, my QFE often runs with the locust with heat sink, and HVB with an acolyte. Travel light with a decent, controllable weapon. I might swap to eagle. What do you think? Does the Eagle II out perform a Tempest X, or locust X? I wouldn't mind an opinion on it other than my own.

The Eagle is... okay.  I have rank II of it and it does the job on silver, but I'm not quite sold on it for gold.  Perhaps when I can get it to rank V or higher.  I mainly use it because I had been using the Carnifex for so long and I wanted something different.  Also, the Falcon works pretty well if you like more crowd control, especially if you give it disruptor or cryo rounds for tech bursts and cryo explosions respectively.  It's not especially heavy; Bioware reduced its weight.

Rebel_Raven wrote...
Heavy weapons on a QFI? I dunno how you manage to use sabotage often unless you're burning consumeables to make it work. I don't beleive in burning consumeables to make something work, I believe in using consumeables to make something that works work better.

Yes, heavy weapons on a QFI.  Cyonan explained how this is possible without affecting cooldowns much.  It's what people mean when they say "infiltrators don't care about weight."

Rebel_Raven wrote...
Which is why I really want the heavy duty women that aren't glass cannons. I wanna be able to not have to fight from cover now and then without worrying that some marauder'll make me a grease spot the instant I poke my head out every now and then. I want a night invulnerable female character that can mow down bosses as well as any male character can.

In gold and up just about every class aside from Kroguards die within five seconds from any kind of sustained fire.  Really, cover becomes your best protection; this isn't limited to female classes.  If you're not shy about using consumables, high-end adrenaline mods can cut down on damage since enemies do have a harder time hitting you from a distance if you're storming -- not fool-proof protection, obviously.

If you want to fight out of cover from time-to-time play an infiltrator.  You get your high damage, your ability to avoid damage through Tactical Cloak (when it works), you're a weapons platform as you call it, and there are females available.  Equip a heavy, hard-hitting weapon, try the technique Cyonan explained, and you'll be a death-dealer in no time.  My vote goes towards the QFI, obviously.  Sabotage spec'd for backfire damage and tech vulnerability is excellent and the stun can help you line up shots on most targets.

Oh, and don't forget Sticky Grenades.  These have been buffed several times now and hit quite hard.  They also take on the qualities of whatever ammo mod you're using (I recommend disruptor for the Sticky/Sabotage synergy).

Modifié par Najarati, 11 octobre 2012 - 05:51 .

[Rebel_Raven]

Najarati wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...
All I'm saying is that she's a potent fighter, but she's not a weapons platform. When not using grenades, she uses firearms, and when she does, she's not really any better than anyone else at it.

She's an excellent class, but she's not gunna replace a destroyer with a heavy weapon.

I see a lot of praise for the Destroyer and he's a good class, but he's hardly the end-all be-all of multiplayer.  I've beaten plenty of Destoyers in score with the Demolisher, I've also had Destroyers beat me in score as well; in the latter cases I was either having a bad match or the Destroyer player was simply better than me, but it wasn't because my Demolisher wasn't capable.

Of course the destroyer isn't the end all be all, but they more or less epitomize the soldier class.

Najarati wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...
Like I said earlier, my QFE often runs with the locust with heat sink, and HVB with an acolyte. Travel light with a decent, controllable weapon. I might swap to eagle. What do you think? Does the Eagle II out perform a Tempest X, or locust X? I wouldn't mind an opinion on it other than my own.

The Eagle is... okay.  I have rank II of it and it does the job on silver, but I'm not quite sold on it for gold.  Perhaps when I can get it to rank V or higher.  I mainly use it because I had been using the Carnifex for so long and I wanted something different.  Also, the Falcon works pretty well if you like more crowd control, especially if you give it disruptor or cryo rounds for tech bursts and cryo explosions respectively.  It's not especially heavy; Bioware reduced its weight.

I use the Falcon now and then. It's not the worst killer of infantry either, and it's light enough to be tolerable.

And yeh, I reached the same conclusion about the eagle. I use it a lot coz it's an SMG with a melee mod which is really nice for my shadow. Using it outside of her, I don't know.

I really know what it's like to want something diffirent.

Najarati wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...
Heavy weapons on a QFI? I dunno how you manage to use sabotage often unless you're burning consumeables to make it work. I don't beleive in burning consumeables to make something work, I believe in using consumeables to make something that works work better.

Yes, heavy weapons on a QFI.  Cyonan explained how this is possible without affecting cooldowns much.  It's what people mean when they say "infiltrators don't care about weight."

I never really grasped how that sort of thing worked until now. I appreciate the 411 on it.

Najarati wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...
Which is why I really want the heavy duty women that aren't glass cannons. I wanna be able to not have to fight from cover now and then without worrying that some marauder'll make me a grease spot the instant I poke my head out every now and then. I want a night invulnerable female character that can mow down bosses as well as any male character can.

In gold and up just about every class aside from Kroguards die within five seconds from any kind of sustained fire.  Really, cover becomes your best protection; this isn't limited to female classes.  If you're not shy about using consumables, high-end adrenaline mods can cut down on damage since enemies do have a harder time hitting you from a distance -- not fool-proof protection, obviously.

If you want to fight out of cover from time-to-time play an infiltrator.  You get your high damage, your ability to avoid damage, you're a weapons platform as you call it, and there are females.  Try the technique Cyonan explained and you'll be a death-dealer in no time.  My vote goes towards the QFI, obviously.  Sabotage spec'd for backfire damage and tech vulnerability is excellent and the stun can help you line up shots on most targets.

Yes, aside from Krogards. Which is why i want a female one. A high durability unit.

I usually play stuck to cover, running, and rolling a lot no matter what class I play.

Admittedly I hate using consumeables. I don't feel like I have a lot, and I don't feel like I'll replenish them fast enough to overcome burning through them every mission. It's largely why I played silver post patch. Not sure how much things will have changed now.

I'll have to give it a whirl, though it sounds like I'll be using my cloak as armor, and praying nothing can detect me, then blast me into a fine paste.

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 11 octobre 2012 - 06:04 .

[Rebel_Raven]

Ya know, it frikking dawned on me.

Quarian Marksman.

Was it selfish to ask that he be a she? Maybe.

Would it be selfish to ask Bioware, with that GIGANTIC DLC they've put out to make a MALE AND FEMALE ONE?!

Bent out of shape about Quarian Females getting Tac Scan? Fine, give them another power. Grenade? Drone? I don't care.
Point is they could've EASILY ADDED A FEMALE QUARIAN. They didn't. I won't go into implications of that sort of bull****, but if you wanna read between the lines, go for it.

Bioware could've made a MALE AND FEMALE QUARIAN MARKSMAN. No new voice acting, no new skins. Seemingly trivial amounts of work.

So, yeah. They didn't.

[Zkyire]

Oh my God this is still alive.

OP - Start a blog, seriously.

[Rebel_Raven]

Zkyire wrote...

Oh my God this is still alive.

OP - Start a blog, seriously.

Yep, and the bump is appreciated! Have a nice day!

[Ypiret]

The conclusions your draw for BioWare's choice of characters are incredible hilarious and frustrating. I just want to shake you and yell reason into your face.

Oh my God this is still alive.

OP - Start a blog, seriously.

I feel like she'd be someone who goes on Tumblr frequently.

I hate Tumblr and try to avoid it at all costs.

[Rebel_Raven]

Ypiret wrote...

The conclusions your draw for BioWare's choice of characters are incredible hilarious and frustrating. I just want to shake you and yell reason into your face.

Oh my God this is still alive.

OP - Start a blog, seriously.

I feel like she'd be someone who goes on Tumblr frequently.

I hate Tumblr and try to avoid it at all costs.

I wouldn't come to them if Bioware didn't give me the equivalent of 2 all male DLCs, and some asari on the side. *Shrugs*

You can hate me all you want, but I don't care.

[Vicious]

Mr SeVerS wrote...

Jesus Christ this is worse than the CoD forums

[Uberschveinen]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

I wouldn't come to them if Bioware didn't give me the equivalent of 2 all male DLCs, and some asari on the side. *Shrugs*

You can hate me all you want, but I don't care.

If you genuinely care about gender equality to the extent that you feel it deserves militant enforcement in all circumstances regardless of context, then why are you here?

In a videogame, gender balance is factually irrelevant. Nobody loses for gender discrepancies in games. It is not possible for there to be a level of gender imbalance in gaming that is actually harmful to people. The only people who are affected by gender imbalance in games are those who choose to be.

There are places in the world where gender issues are actual problems. In the Western world there are few remaining discrepancies that are not fundamentally reducible to either inherent or so-biologically-ingrained-as-to-amount-to-inherent differences between the genders, or due to simple momentum, because change in human societies must be generational to be stable. But in many countries being female is not an ambiguous position that is effectively just different, but an actual serious disadvantage. In China male children are just more desired than female for cultural reasons that were informed by a social structure that no longer exists. In India, the majority of the sex trade is fuelled by families selling female children into sexual servitude, because they are less valued than male children. In Afghanistan, the Taliban's pathologic hatred of women in general is legendary. And I could go on or go into detail for hours.

This is a game played for recreation and fun, with no consequences for the greater world beyond it. It has a discrete universe for its setting, in which many things differ from our world. And you are taking an intense issue with one aspect of one aspect of one aspect of this setting, because you have decided that the descriptive reality of a fictional setting which makes no attempt to portray the real world is morally obliged to heed the normative construct of 'fairness' that you feel is appropriate. You feel strongly enough about this that you feel that it is morally obligatory for Bioware to spend its developer-hours making content that is 'fair' instead of content that is fun.  In fact, you feel strongly enough about this that you've made a thread that by all appearances is somethign of a small crusade. What I don't get is this:

Why?

There are real places in the real world with real problems in truly dire need of real help. If this issue is to be your crusade, why not make your crusade in a place where it can make a difference?

If you get what you want here, you will have successfully made a handful of people somewhat satisfied, a few hundred people trivially annoyed, and a lot of people apathetically confused. At best. And you will almost certainly not achieve what you want.

If you get what you want in a place with a real problem, then you will have improved the lives of thousands of women, and in doing so the lives of the men, women, children, and society of that place. And if you don't, you'll have at the least made a real difference to one person's life.

Why fight an irrelevant battle for a hollow victory, when there are real wars that can and must be fought?

[Evo_9]

I think all the turians are male because the females are at home preparing a hot meal

[Rebel_Raven]

Uberschveinen wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

I wouldn't come to them if Bioware didn't give me the equivalent of 2 all male DLCs, and some asari on the side. *Shrugs*

You can hate me all you want, but I don't care.

If you genuinely care about gender equality to the extent that you feel it deserves militant enforcement in all circumstances regardless of context, then why are you here?

In a videogame, gender balance is factually irrelevant. Nobody loses for gender discrepancies in games. It is not possible for there to be a level of gender imbalance in gaming that is actually harmful to people. The only people who are affected by gender imbalance in games are those who choose to be.

There are places in the world where gender issues are actual problems. In the Western world there are few remaining discrepancies that are not fundamentally reducible to either inherent or so-biologically-ingrained-as-to-amount-to-inherent differences between the genders, or due to simple momentum, because change in human societies must be generational to be stable. But in many countries being female is not an ambiguous position that is effectively just different, but an actual serious disadvantage. In China male children are just more desired than female for cultural reasons that were informed by a social structure that no longer exists. In India, the majority of the sex trade is fuelled by families selling female children into sexual servitude, because they are less valued than male children. In Afghanistan, the Taliban's pathologic hatred of women in general is legendary. And I could go on or go into detail for hours.

This is a game played for recreation and fun, with no consequences for the greater world beyond it. It has a discrete universe for its setting, in which many things differ from our world. And you are taking an intense issue with one aspect of one aspect of one aspect of this setting, because you have decided that the descriptive reality of a fictional setting which makes no attempt to portray the real world is morally obliged to heed the normative construct of 'fairness' that you feel is appropriate. You feel strongly enough about this that you feel that it is morally obligatory for Bioware to spend its developer-hours making content that is 'fair' instead of content that is fun.  In fact, you feel strongly enough about this that you've made a thread that by all appearances is somethign of a small crusade. What I don't get is this:

Why?

There are real places in the real world with real problems in truly dire need of real help. If this issue is to be your crusade, why not make your crusade in a place where it can make a difference?

If you get what you want here, you will have successfully made a handful of people somewhat satisfied, a few hundred people trivially annoyed, and a lot of people apathetically confused. At best. And you will almost certainly not achieve what you want.

If you get what you want in a place with a real problem, then you will have improved the lives of thousands of women, and in doing so the lives of the men, women, children, and society of that place. And if you don't, you'll have at the least made a real difference to one person's life.

Why fight an irrelevant battle for a hollow victory, when there are real wars that can and must be fought?

I'm sorrry, you've mistaken me for a heroine. I'm sure there's people better qualified than I to change things on a global scale.

What's more, if I can't even put -1- company back on it's rails of being progressive in one of the most progresive games ever made, a company that once believed what I do, and not even get sufficient support to do so on their official board (Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the support in the cause I can get), well, how effective could I possibly be on the global scale?

You may as well be telling me to STFU, and GTFO, and stop trying here. I know you're not, but I think I have better odds of getting something done on this board, and those odds are worse than vegas, or winning the lottery.

In reality, I'm just a gamer that feels lied to by a company I -thought- was progressive, and had the artistic power to keep in the spirit of their own created universe where exists one of the most Iconic women in gaming.

I thought their goal was to have the galaxy fighting together against threats. It's starting to feel like there's the addendum "You have to be guys, or an all female species, though! We might let in a few females of the other species, but don't count on it!"

[Quething]

Uberschveinen wrote...

Why fight an irrelevant battle for a hollow victory, when there are real wars that can and must be fought?

Apart from being a blatant false dilemma (as though it isn't possible for a person to help a women's shelter or vote progressive and also push for equality on a game forum in their off hours), this is such a bizarre misconception of the way the world works. If we can all accept and agree that a kid can learn to read from Sesame Street, why are we so resistant to the idea that a dudebro can learn to respect women from Mass Effect? Do you really, honestly think that if, starting tomorrow, 50% of White Male Shaved-Head Space Marines in all Western media were suddenly women instead, that wouldn't have some impact on the ability of both men and women to percieve women as equals to men and just as capable of being leaders in the real world as well? How many studies have to prove that living a life completely surrounded by stories, advertisements, and media that demonstrate particular expectations about gender and race and sexuality makes people more inclined to believe in and act to reinforce those roles, before people start believing it?

Mass Effect is just one game, sure. It's not going to change the world by itself. But it can be a drop in the bucket. And that's how this kind of bucket gets filled, mostly. One drop at a time. We're fans of the game. We're going to be here anyway, arguing about class balance and faction nerfs and geth stunlocking and what the bleeding hell they were smoking when they wrote the ending. What, exactly, does it hurt, to also remind BioWare that they're not doing right by their female customers while we're here?

Modifié par Quething, 11 octobre 2012 - 10:53 .

[Rebel_Raven]

Quething wrote...

Uberschveinen wrote...

Why fight an irrelevant battle for a hollow victory, when there are real wars that can and must be fought?

Apart from being a blatant false dilemma (as though it isn't possible for a person to help a women's shelter or vote progressive and also push for equality on a game forum in their off hours), this is such a bizarre misconception of the way the world works. If we can all accept and agree that a kid can learn to read from Sesame Street, why are we so resistant to the idea that a dudebro can learn to respect women from Mass Effect? Do you really, honestly think that if, starting tomorrow, 50% of White Male Shaved-Head Space Marines in all Western media were suddenly women instead, that wouldn't have some impact on the ability of both men and women to percieve women as equals to men and just as capable of being leaders in the real world as well? How many studies have to prove that living a life completely surrounded by stories, advertisements, and media that demonstrate particular expectations about gender and race and sexuality makes people more inclined to believe in and act to reinforce those roles, before people start believing it?

Mass Effect is just one game, sure. It's not going to change the world by itself. But it can be a drop in the bucket. And that's how this kind of bucket gets filled, mostly. One drop at a time. We're fans of the game. We're going to be here anyway, arguing about class balance and faction nerfs and geth stunlocking and what the bleeding hell they were smoking when they wrote the ending. What, exactly, does it hurt, to also remind BioWare that they're not doing right by their female customers while we're here?

Some damn fine points here!

[Uberschveinen]

And you're conflating a game setting and real world morality. A game setting isn't obliged to follow your normative arguments for how the world should be. In fact, if they were, there would be no creativity at all. Where is the story if, thanks to your dictum of moral storytelling, there's no conflict, no adversary? There's a reason that stories designed to prove a moral point tend to suck much more and more readily than stories designed to tell a story.

As soon as you oblige anyone to tell a story a certain way, because they have to portray a certain gender in a specific way to be 'fair', you are being calculatedly and wilfully sexist. You are deliberately creating a social construct of gender that must be enforced because you will not accept another. That is exactly the same as the situation that allows for a gender to be marginalised in the first place.

You don't need to make any story have a certain person do something if you want to make that issue go away. In fact, by bringing up the point again, and again, and again, all you do is force the issue to stay live.

Social status equality can't exist when gender is an issue. It can only exist when it has ceased to be an issue. Men and women will be treated as people first and a gender second when people stop caring about gender. And they will never be able to stop caring about gender while you keep shoving gender in their face.