303 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

Wow, and I thought the enforced sexual equality/ femenist crap only existed in the DA3 and DA2 forums. It's entered the MP arena too.

But, it's late, but I'll be back later to explain why you can't have things this way. Mainly due to broken fingernails and the need for some women in ME3 to make Sammaches for the lads.

Modifié par billy the squid, 11 octobre 2012 - 11:23 .

[AresKeith]

Some of the people in here need to grow up

[PaganPoetry]

I just want to start by saying: I agree with a lot of the outrage in this thread. It is unfathomable to me that the people who work on this game sat around in a room and apparently nobody thought that it was troubling that a mere 12.5% of their new characters were female. When there was already an exclusively male DLC, a DLC with only one woman, and no new additions for a female soldier ever. That says a LOT to me about Bioware's views on women in general, whether or not they realize it.

But I also want to add that I think that the way people are brushing off and dismissing the actual women in this thread who have a problem with their own gender's representation in the game is equally disgusting. The brusk dismissal of every single argument put forth reeks of the apathetic male privilege that enables Bioware to put in 14 new males and 2 new women (neither of whom have flashy new powers) in the "biggest DLC ever."

Uberschveinen: I'm sorry, I get what you're saying but I find it deeply troubling. If civil rights activists had simply stopped shoving their blackness in the faces of bigots, would the US suddenly stop being racist? Just because legally and socially women are almost (but not quite) equal to men, in spite of politicians' constant fights against that, that does not mean that the few remaining bits of inequality will suddenly evolve into equality over time, it does not mean that the stereotypes and misogynists will dissipate without warning. People have to comprehend WHY framing things in a way such as: "a female soldier in Mass Effect cannot have powers that enhance her weapon usage or have as many shields as a Krogan" is problematic.

[Rebel_Raven]

Uberschveinen wrote...

And you're conflating a game setting and real world morality. A game setting isn't obliged to follow your normative arguments for how the world should be. In fact, if they were, there would be no creativity at all. Where is the story if, thanks to your dictum of moral storytelling, there's no conflict, no adversary? There's a reason that stories designed to prove a moral point tend to suck much more and more readily than stories designed to tell a story.

As soon as you oblige anyone to tell a story a certain way, because they have to portray a certain gender in a specific way to be 'fair', you are being calculatedly and wilfully sexist. You are deliberately creating a social construct of gender that must be enforced because you will not accept another. That is exactly the same as the situation that allows for a gender to be marginalised in the first place.

You don't need to make any story have a certain person do something if you want to make that issue go away. In fact, by bringing up the point again, and again, and again, all you do is force the issue to stay live.

Social status equality can't exist when gender is an issue. It can only exist when it has ceased to be an issue. Men and women will be treated as people first and a gender second when people stop caring about gender. And they will never be able to stop caring about gender while you keep shoving gender in their face.

Wait, wait, thre's a story in mass effect's MP? Beyond "Enemies exist! Fix that!" and grabbing a gun?

Single player, I think you might have had a point. In multiplayer where the plot is essentially the GALAXY UNITING AS ONE TO FIGHT A GALAXY WIDE THREAT? Huh, galaxy's mostly men? Women can't fight for their freedom, and life, nevermind to save the galaxy?
Right. <.< smh

Why on earth would I say there'd be no enemies? no conflict? You're putting words in my mouth here. Not just mine, but geez, I'm not seeing that anywhere in the thread.

Making the game more gender equal won't change the nature of the Reapers who're just here to prevent us from getting too big for our britches! Or change cerberus, or change the geth!

You're saying there's a moral point to mass Effect's multiplayer?! Wow, that's deep!
Frankly I thought the moral of mass effect was that the genders were equal? Or close to it? The Shepard screams this notion. the cast, the love interests, and so much more scream that there should be equality!

Here I was just hoping to have, maybe 1 woman for every 2-3 guys added? At least TRY to keep a 1/3 ratio of women to men?

And it's kinda weird you suggest I go crusade for equality yet you're saying now I shouldn't care about gender, nor should I try to enforce equality?! Make up your mind!!!

Like it or not, gender matters, and trying to villainize me, and people who want female characters in larger doses in a videogame isn't going to help your case. You're not going to shame us into throwing in te towel for fear of looking like the badguys.

[Rebel_Raven]

PaganPoetry wrote...

I just want to start by saying: I agree with a lot of the outrage in this thread. It is unfathomable to me that the people who work on this game sat around in a room and apparently nobody thought that it was troubling that a mere 12.5% of their new characters were female. When there was already an exclusively male DLC, a DLC with only one woman, and no new additions for a female soldier ever. That says a LOT to me about Bioware's views on women in general, whether or not they realize it.

But I also want to add that I think that the way people are brushing off and dismissing the actual women in this thread who have a problem with their own gender's representation in the game is equally disgusting. The brusk dismissal of every single argument put forth reeks of the apathetic male privilege that enables Bioware to put in 14 new males and 2 new women (neither of whom have flashy new powers) in the "biggest DLC ever."

Uberschveinen: I'm sorry, I get what you're saying but I find it deeply troubling. If civil rights activists had simply stopped shoving their blackness in the faces of bigots, would the US suddenly stop being racist? Just because legally and socially women are almost (but not quite) equal to men, in spite of politicians' constant fights against that, that does not mean that the few remaining bits of inequality will suddenly evolve into equality over time, it does not mean that the stereotypes and misogynists will dissipate without warning. People have to comprehend WHY framing things in a way such as: "a female soldier in Mass Effect cannot have powers that enhance her weapon usage or have as many shields as a Krogan" is problematic.

I LIKE THIS ONE! This human understands!
QFT!

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 11 octobre 2012 - 11:45 .

[Uberschveinen]

PaganPoetry wrote...

Uberschveinen: I'm sorry, I get what you're saying but I find it deeply troubling. If civil rights activists had simply stopped shoving their blackness in the faces of bigots, would the US suddenly stop being racist?

No. But that's because challenging discrimination is a long and complex battle. There's three phases, really. First, make them care. Second, make them realise that it's not actually useful. Third, make them stop caring.

First, you have ot make people care. This is because discrimination is ingrained and institutionalised. It's too hard to consciously discriminate, because goddamn. There's just so many people that aren't you and the people you like. So you do it automatically, and it becomes the status quo. to combat this, you have to make people care. To make the thing an issue. To make people care, so they're aware that this attitude is a specific effort on their part.

Then you make it clear that there's no actual basis for this in fact. This is a tricky stage, because sometimes there is. Discrimination is a neutral concept; unfair discrimination is a problem. But you point out that nobody really loses anything if you stop consciously enforcing the social construct you don't like.

So now people can see all the work they put into marginalising this group, and see that hey, they're not even gettign anything for it! What the hell, man? Now, you just let them stop caring. Because when they stop caring, they stop doing, and now that they know that what they were doing was marginalising a group, when they stop caring they'll stop doing that. But if you don't stop, you don't let them stop caring, and you eventually give them a reason to fight back when they feel that you're demanding more than is fair. Certainly, that's the cause of the modern resurgence of dislike for feminism; the feeling that it's a movement that won, and yet still isn't happy with what it has and demands more.

Just because legally and socially women are almost (but not quite) equal to men

Now that just ain't true. Unless you can show me a piece of legislation in a major Western country that favours men over women on an issue in which there is no appreciable distinction between men and women, that's wrong.

And no, issues where there is a distinction don't count, because there, inequality isn't possible. Regulation of, I don't know, abortion is always going to be unequal, because one whole gender has only an indirect stake in the issue.

Socially speaking, it's a matter of momentum. Let things change in their own time. Feminism is already the most rapidly successful social movement in human history, and unsurprisingly so, given it's actually a majority movement. Social change is generational, and trying to make it work faster is counterproductive.

Equality isn't possible between men and women. Men aren't women, women aren't men. There are irreducible differences between them; some biological, some neurological, some sociological but so ingrained and so persistent from precivilisational humanity that to alter them would be to fundamentally alter humankind. The best you can get is comparability, where everyone has some things that suck and some things that are good. And that's the way it is now.

constant fights against that, that does not mean that the few remaining bits of inequality will suddenly evolve into equality over time, it does not mean that the stereotypes and misogynists will dissipate without warning.

It actually does. As soon as you have majority support, it's inevitable. You're just upset at how much time it takes. But hell, that's human society. It's built stable for a reason. And if your majority movement doesn't have majority support, it tells you that whatever youre trying to do this time is deeply unpersuasive.

And I daresay after decades of yelling at them, you can consider the misogynists warned.

People have to comprehend WHY framing things in a way such as: "a female soldier in Mass Effect cannot have powers that enhance her weapon usage or have as many shields as a Krogan" is problematic.

No, they don't. If your argument falls flat, it isn't because the other guy is an idiot, it's because you failed to make a convincing case. Unless the student is just not listening, the fault is the teacher's.

But as to the actual point, why is it a problem? It's Bioware's universe, with Bioware's fictional species, and they can have whatever gender divisions they damned well please. Fictional species can be set up however they like. There's nothing in any way 'sexist' about gender dichotomies based in factual biology, even if that fact is constrained to an artificial universe. Even the human classes can be justified, because of genetic and cybernetic enhancement. Maybe Spess Mans are easier to modify with traits suiting a soldier, because Earth Mans are already generally stronger and faster. Maybe Spess Womans are the preferred choice for space crews, because Earth Womans are more resilient to radiation thanks to a duplicate chromosome. Maybe one or the other is easier to enhance, because Spess Mans have more accepting PEDOT neurotransmitters and Spess Womans have a neural structure that better incorporates eezo nodules.

And yet, the only species that actually exists exists in the multiplayer as factually equal. Probably because, let's face it, after making it through the N7 program and the most powerful genetic and cybernetic modifications your body can survive, it probably doesn't matter whether you started as man or woman because either way you're now a hulkimg mass of obscenely overtrained fine-tuned supermusle with the fertility of a housebrick.

[Rokayt]

Aarek wrote...

Male according to the in-game voices.

Unless female Turians just happen to sound exactly like their male counterparts that is.

I like to assume the Garrus romance was secrertly lesbian.

Garrus has the flexibility to roll.

Female turians are flexible.

Garrus is a female turian.

The Garrus romance was lesbian.

[PendantTurnips]

why is this thread going on for so long lol

[Rebel_Raven]

Coz we care about the subject! :3

Or in the case of some people, they care enought to hate.

[MDK236]

Female Turians would have been interesting I suppose... Can't deny this game has more female MP characters than any game in recent memory that was not a fighting game.

But that aside I think some of the most powerful characters in ME3MP are female only As I recall half of the Earth DLC characters were female only kits and quite capable, IE the N7 Demolisher can butcher any enemy pretty nice with 2 kinds of grenades and a Pylon the keeps churning out said grenades and ammo, The N7 Shadow; the nearest this community will ever get to a playable Phantom, and the N7 Fury who is probably the most powerful character in the game in the right hands IMO... This thread reminds me of the Gears 3 forums. People hated the fact there was no female playable locusts save for Queen Myrrah... This game has a heck of allot more options than most and more than any in this genre. Be thankful Bioware even listens at all and added the ones they did. Epic sure as hell did not.

[LadyAlekto]

Rokayt wrote...

Aarek wrote...

Male according to the in-game voices.

Unless female Turians just happen to sound exactly like their male counterparts that is.

I like to assume the Garrus romance was secrertly lesbian.

Garrus has the flexibility to roll.

Female turians are flexible.

Garrus is a female turian.

The Garrus romance was lesbian.

hmmm

GET OFF ME TRAYNOR I GOT A GARRUS TO GET!

[Cyonan]

MDK236 wrote...

Female Turians would have been interesting I suppose... Can't deny this game has more female MP characters than any game in recent memory that was not a fighting game.

But that aside I think some of the most powerful characters in ME3MP are female only As I recall half of the Earth DLC characters were female only kits and quite capable, IE the N7 Demolisher can butcher any enemy pretty nice with 2 kinds of grenades and a Pylon the keeps churning out said grenades and ammo, The N7 Shadow; the nearest this community will ever get to a playable Phantom, and the N7 Fury who is probably the most powerful character in the game in the right hands IMO... This thread reminds me of the Gears 3 forums. People hated the fact there was no female playable locusts save for Queen Myrrah... This game has a heck of allot more options than most and more than any in this genre. Be thankful Bioware even listens at all and added the ones they did. Epic sure as hell did not.

Pretty much any MMO lets you choose male or female of every race/class.

League of Legends has a large number of both genders, plus a few robots and other things.

It's hard to come up with games that have the sheer number of characters that Mass Effect 3 does, though most of the ones I play are split roughly 50/50, even if only because the only options are generic human male or generic human female.

I recall one of the guys behind the game Blacklight Retribution said that it's actually easier to create a female model using the male version as a base than it is to create a new armour skin for a male character. Not sure how well that applies to alien species, however.

[Rebel_Raven]

I cannot, and will not deny the following:
Mass Effect MP has more playable females than practically every other shooter... combined, probably. A miracle in gaming!!

Mass Effect's women in MP aren't garbage characters. Sure most are relegated to being glass cannons, but they can kick butt, too!

But wow. They made practically a whole new group of turians, and couldn't make -one- female? That stings.

A lone Krogan in the DLC. A shaman, I think? Too much to ask for a modified Eve model, and voice?

They made a Male Quarian Marksman, but no female counterpart? Why?! Aside from humans, Quarians are the only species to have men, and women represented. They couldn't even be bothered to try and pair them up with so many characters being released?

As much as I appreciate the current options, I don't appreciate a massive imbalance of females being added vs male characters. Especially since it's becoming something of a commonality.

When are we going to get a female character that has even destroyer levels of defense? Nevermind Krogan.

When are we going to get our next female soldier? Some wonderful woman who can activate a power, and make a weapon borderline OP, and really bring out the deadly nature of nearly any gun?
We could've had that with a female quarian marksman to stand shoulder to shoulder with her brother unit in the more gender equalistic universe of mass effect, but that chance has passed us by.
... and who's gunna argue against more jiggly quarian bumbum?!!

[Rebel_Raven]

Cyonan wrote...

MDK236 wrote...

Female Turians would have been interesting I suppose... Can't deny this game has more female MP characters than any game in recent memory that was not a fighting game.

But that aside I think some of the most powerful characters in ME3MP are female only As I recall half of the Earth DLC characters were female only kits and quite capable, IE the N7 Demolisher can butcher any enemy pretty nice with 2 kinds of grenades and a Pylon the keeps churning out said grenades and ammo, The N7 Shadow; the nearest this community will ever get to a playable Phantom, and the N7 Fury who is probably the most powerful character in the game in the right hands IMO... This thread reminds me of the Gears 3 forums. People hated the fact there was no female playable locusts save for Queen Myrrah... This game has a heck of allot more options than most and more than any in this genre. Be thankful Bioware even listens at all and added the ones they did. Epic sure as hell did not.

Pretty much any MMO lets you choose male or female of every race/class.

League of Legends has a large number of both genders, plus a few robots and other things.

It's hard to come up with games that have the sheer number of characters that Mass Effect 3 does, though most of the ones I play are split roughly 50/50, even if only because the only options are generic human male or generic human female.

I recall one of the guys behind the game Blacklight Retribution said that it's actually easier to create a female model using the male version as a base than it is to create a new armour skin for a male character. Not sure how well that applies to alien species, however.

Yeah I've read a lot about the myths of the excuses developers have to exclude women from games, too. Hence my signature.

I can't imagine it's terribly difficult to reshape a suit of full turian armor, and add a modulated woman's voice.

[Caliga Cursor]

they are male, but its a role playing game so your always free to pretend lol i do

[silencekills]

 I feel like i've seen this thread before, but just in case...

K.

[LadyAlekto]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

When are we going to get our next female soldier? Some wonderful woman who can activate a power, and make a weapon borderline OP, and really bring out the deadly nature of nearly any gun?
We could've had that with a female quarian marksman to stand shoulder to shoulder with her brother unit in the more gender equalistic universe of mass effect, but that chance has passed us by.
... and who's gunna argue against more jiggly quarian bumbum?!!

Theres a reason i argue for the ghost being a female turian^^ and shes just an awesome class

[Cyonan]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Yeah I've read a lot about the myths of the excuses developers have to exclude women from games, too. Hence my signature.

I can't imagine it's terribly difficult to reshape a suit of full turian armor, and add a modulated woman's voice.

I'm a programmer rather than an animator, so I really can only go off what other say, though it was mentioned that they can actually use the male model to make a female model, at least for humans.

Pretty much anything Jim Sterling says is awesome =P

[Chi_Mangetsu]

Holy crap. And people wonder why there's a sexism problem in the gaming world.

I remember when Earth DLC came out and people were flipping their sh!t because the Demolisher was female. Maybe it's just me, but whenever it comes to the Human base characters, I prefer the females. Their models are more attractive (with a smaller hit-box), their voices are more attractive (well, except for maybe the soldier and vanguard with the death mask voice warping), and I prefer FemShep for the same reasons, so there's that. If nothing else, who wouldn't want to stare at more badass badonkadonks? Commies*, that's who.

*No offense to actual communists, just misogynistic pig-dogs.

[Lokiwithrope]

Why do people keep asking for female turians? Just a question.

[Distilled Poison]

@Uberschveinen- Your post reminds me of one of the rules of the internet. "All your carefully worded arguments can easily be ignored." Good post nonetheless.

[Cyonan]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

Why do people keep asking for female turians? Just a question.

Probably since they seem like they'd be the easier to do, due to the fact that they're supposed to be very similar to the males in appearance.

Plus there isn't a lore argument against them like some species, as Garrus confirms they're in the military.

[Chi_Mangetsu]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

Why do people keep asking for female turians? Just a question.

Because turians are awesome and females are awesome, therefore, female turians should be doubly awesome.



At least ideally.

[Gravisanimi]

Well, Raven, I 120% agree with you.

I was suprised by this but i did a M:F ratio.
30 males to 14 females as it stands now (without Geth and unreleased characters)

A.K.A. less than a third of the characters are female: at 15:7

Only one female character lies in the Soldier class, the basic human class.
Only two female characters lie in the Vangaurd class, the basic human and the original Asari classes.
The rest are casters, so vaild arguements are valid.

Modifié par Gravisanimi, 12 octobre 2012 - 02:07 .

[Lokiwithrope]

Chi_Mangetsu wrote...

Lokiwithrope wrote...

Why do people keep asking for female turians? Just a question.

Because turians are awesome and females are awesome, therefore, female turians should be doubly awesome.



At least ideally.

They're practically the same. That's why they did in the comics and not in the games.