184 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKillerAngel]

mrcanada wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Ignore Cryo completely.

Get an ammo with a strong detonation effect (I like Incendiary).
Spec for AoE charge
Equip max grenade gear.
Fire weapon
Charge into group = detonate effect
Profit

And die if you didn't pop a stim. Might still die even with one on .

It's assumed that you will use a pack when your shields start to rapidly deplete. 

[mrcanada]

Gamemako wrote...

SushiSquid wrote...

I really don't see the purpose of this power. It's an AoE version of Biotic Charge, but the reason people like Biotic Charge is because it restores barriers. Havoc Strike just gets you killed or wastes a Stimulant Pack.

Havoc Strike is not AoE unless you take the Rank 6 evo. //EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure about this. Regardless, Biotic Charge is AoE if you take the Rank 4 evo and hits a max of 3 targets.

Havoc Strike does more damage, but it really needs to do a lot more damage. Biotic Charge is more about the shield recharge and buffs for continued aggression. Havoc Strike just doesn't offer this sustained ability, which means that it has to be for clearing out small groups fast before bailing. To that end, it lacks the firepower to be viable.

Great analysis and therin lies the problem. Since Havoc Strike is so situational due to vulnerability and dependancy on stims, your only other option is shooting from cover.........

[mrcanada]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

mrcanada wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Ignore Cryo completely.

Get an ammo with a strong detonation effect (I like Incendiary).
Spec for AoE charge
Equip max grenade gear.
Fire weapon
Charge into group = detonate effect
Profit

And die if you didn't pop a stim. Might still die even with one on .

It's assumed that you will use a pack when your shields start to rapidly deplete. 

You popped the packprior to charging.

[TheKillerAngel]

I usually use a pack after I charge unless I am already under sustained fire.

Either way, a base increase to the damage/force on Havoc strike would be welcome so I don't have to max damage if I want to stagger heavy targets.

Modifié par TheKillerAngel, 10 octobre 2012 - 02:10 .

[Saiyan1126]

I'll admit when I first unlocked Havoc I had the same impression as most. But after using the Ghost, I realized Ghost and Havoc are just Shadow and Slayer again. Ghost and Shadow have more room for error, and Havoc and Slayer just require a bit more finesse. When Earth came out, I saw tons of Slayers failing miserably (myself included). After some time, I now see Slayers dominating by using teleport, charge, and phase disruptor in combinations people never thought of at release.

I see the Havoc as a guerrilla fighter like the Slayer, yet more durable at the cost of not phasing through walls (does jetpack cover more ground?). Once the art of the jetpack has been mastered, I'm sure we'll be seeing tons of Havocs topping Kroguards and Slayers.

[mrcanada]

landylan wrote...

You have to use stim packs before charging in my experience, but he still sucks. You can't continuously pop out your temporary health boost. You also can't do it while in the middle of actions like dodging or charging.

I play him like a weapons character. Mostly cryo blasting and charging to kill weaker characters and run.

Here's an idea of how bad he sucks. Imagine a biotic charge that can't stun the phantoms anymore and doesn't restore shields the instant you come out of charge. Also, it only restores shields a limited number of times.

And you're vulnerable during the charge.

[mrcanada]

Saiyan1126 wrote...

I'll admit when I first unlocked Havoc I had the same impression as most. But after using the Ghost, I realized Ghost and Havoc are just Shadow and Slayer again. Ghost and Shadow have more room for error, and Havoc and Slayer just require a bit more finesse. When Earth came out, I saw tons of Slayers failing miserably (myself included). After some time, I now see Slayers dominating by using teleport, charge, and phase disruptor in combinations people never thought of at release.

I see the Havoc as a guerrilla fighter like the Slayer, yet more durable at the cost of not phasing through walls (does jetpack cover more ground?). Once the art of the jetpack has been mastered, I'm sure we'll be seeing tons of Havocs topping Kroguards and Slayers.

The Slayer recharges barrier from charge, has massive damage reduction from light melee, crowd control with Phase Disruptors, rinse and repeat.  The Havoc has none of these things and is a much weaker class due to his vulnerability during the charge. Not a very good comparison.

[TheKillerAngel]

If you guys are PC, I'll play a game with you using my soldier right now.

[SushiSquid]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

It's assumed that you will use a pack when your shields start to rapidly deplete. 

We all know that. Everyone agrees Havoc Strike is useless without Stimulant Pack.

This is why my comparisons from earlier work. Havok Strike requires a grenade use and two maxed skills to do less damage than a single maxed grenade power from another class could cause over a greater area. The Havoc is also noticeably less useful than the Ghost, which is actually a good class.

Basically, Turin Havoc Soldier suffers from the "anything you can do I can do better" problem.

Modifié par SushiSquid, 10 octobre 2012 - 02:12 .

[RiouHotaru]

Well, then don't play him like a Vanguard then. Use Havoc Strike like a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

[mrcanada]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

If you guys are PC, I'll play a game with you using my soldier right now.

PS3 unfortunately.

[mrcanada]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Well, then don't play him like a Vanguard then. Use Havoc Strike like a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

Then what's the point? There are much better weapon based characters out there. An ability like that is meant to be the main thrust of the character, not an after thought. As it stands, it isn't designed very well.

[ZephyrAM]

mrcanada wrote...

landylan wrote...

You have to use stim packs before charging in my experience, but he still sucks. You can't continuously pop out your temporary health boost. You also can't do it while in the middle of actions like dodging or charging.

I play him like a weapons character. Mostly cryo blasting and charging to kill weaker characters and run.

Here's an idea of how bad he sucks. Imagine a biotic charge that can't stun the phantoms anymore and doesn't restore shields the instant you come out of charge. Also, it only restores shields a limited number of times.

And you're vulnerable during the charge.

I actually generally use the charge to 'avoid' damage. It ignores quite a few attacks when you trigger it. I've used it to dodge Atlas rockets, Dragoon whips, Rocket trooper shots, or just about anything trying to hit me after I've used it once and gotten into melee with them.

[Aerialight]

You know I tried both the havoc and the ghost on gold, and the ghost was more successful. That assault rifle bonus with cloak makes the rev a beast even more, and his melee comes in handy when a lot of enemies are nearby. Oh and the fact you can still use it with pizza delivery is glorious.

[RiouHotaru]

mrcanada wrote...

Saiyan1126 wrote...

I'll admit when I first unlocked Havoc I had the same impression as most. But after using the Ghost, I realized Ghost and Havoc are just Shadow and Slayer again. Ghost and Shadow have more room for error, and Havoc and Slayer just require a bit more finesse. When Earth came out, I saw tons of Slayers failing miserably (myself included). After some time, I now see Slayers dominating by using teleport, charge, and phase disruptor in combinations people never thought of at release.

I see the Havoc as a guerrilla fighter like the Slayer, yet more durable at the cost of not phasing through walls (does jetpack cover more ground?). Once the art of the jetpack has been mastered, I'm sure we'll be seeing tons of Havocs topping Kroguards and Slayers.

The Slayer recharges barrier from charge, has massive damage reduction from light melee, crowd control with Phase Disruptors, rinse and repeat.  The Havoc has none of these things and is a much weaker class due to his vulnerability during the charge. Not a very good comparison.

Except that not everyone uses the Charge on the Slayer.  Me personally?  I completely skip BC on the Slayer and just got for 0/6/6/6/6.  I dominate at middle-to-short range.  Meanwhile my Shadow goes 6/6/6/6/0 and again, plays more like a surgical character.  Shadow Strike hard targets, retreat, Electric Slash for the detonation or to deal with trash.

You should NOT be playing the Havoc Soldier like a Vanguard, regardless of the power comparisons.

[RiouHotaru]

mrcanada wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Well, then don't play him like a Vanguard then. Use Havoc Strike like a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

Then what's the point? There are much better weapon based characters out there. An ability like that is meant to be the main thrust of the character, not an after thought. As it stands, it isn't designed very well.

...You missed the point.  You CAN use it as a main thrust.  But it's like how the Shadow can't go SS'ing willy-nilly into crowds and NOT expect to get ganged on.  You have to pick and choose your targets.  The Havoc isn't, IMO, meant to be played like a krogan.

[JiceDuresh]

The problem I think is the unreliable nature of CryoExplosions right now. It seems With snap freeze I can detonate it every time, but with Cryoblast on the Quarian and The Havoc it only detonates one in every 3 or 4 times after hitting what I froze with a power. If it was a reliable explosion then Cryo -> Havoc Strike would be a pretty reasonable combo.

I think Cryoblast is the thing at fault here, it seems bugged to me, and if it's not then it needs buffed to be exactly like tech/fire explosions, I don't undertsand why it's restricted to health only, we tried that with Singularity and everyone hates it, so what's with doing the same thing to Cryoblast?

I like Cryobalst on the Havoc, even though I wish it was Snapfreeze, but I'd like it to work properly if it's going to be something's main ability to detonate Cryoexplosions.

Modifié par JiceDuresh, 10 octobre 2012 - 02:23 .

[RiouHotaru]

JiceDuresh wrote...

The problem I think is the unreliable nature of CryoExplosions right now. It seems With snap freeze I can detonate it every time, but with Cryoblast on the Quarian and The Havoc it only detonates one in every 3 or 4 times after hitting what I froze with a power. If it was a reliable explosion then Cryo -> Havoc Strike would be pretty a pretty reasonable combo.

I think Cryoblast is the thing at fault here, it seems bugged to me, and if it's not then it needs buffed to be exactly like tech/fire explosions, I don't undertsand why it's restricted to health only, we tried that with Singularity and everyone hates it, so what's with doing the same thing to Cryoblast?

I like Cryobalst on the Havoc, wish it was Snapfreeze though, but I'd like it to work properly if it's going to be something's main ability to detonate Cryoexplosions.

The target has to be -completely- frozen through for the explosion.  I think Snap Freeze just freezes the target faster.

[Saiyan1126]

mrcanada wrote...

The Slayer recharges barrier from charge, has massive damage reduction from light melee, crowd control with Phase Disruptors, rinse and repeat.  The Havoc has none of these things and is a much weaker class due to his vulnerability during the charge. Not a very good comparison.

The comparison was more about the relationship between Havoc and Ghost than Havoc and Slayer. At first the universal agreement was that Slayer is completely inferior to Shadow. Lots of people are saying the Havoc is completely inferior to Ghost. All I'm saying is that it's only day 1. Give it some time.

Modifié par Saiyan1126, 10 octobre 2012 - 02:23 .

[Seargent_Braken]

Gamemako wrote...

The Havoc is also addicted to stims and totally breaks down the second you try to take them away. Unfortunately, the Infiltrator being more overpowered than the Gethfiltrator means that you're hosed for supply -- my stock of 4 lasts the requisite 36 seconds, then I get to sit in a corner and cry until the shakes wear off.

2 words: Grenade Gear. You'll have plenty, then.

[FatalionPanic]

SushiSquid wrote...

We all know that. Everyone agrees Havoc Strike is useless without Stimulant Pack.

This is why my comparisons from earlier work. Havok Strike requires a grenade use and two maxed skills to do less damage than a single maxed grenade power from another class could cause over a greater area. The Havoc is also noticeably less useful than the Ghost, which is actually a good class.

Basically, Turin Havoc Soldier suffers from the "anything you can do I can do better" problem.

I see where you're coming from. It has potential to not fullfill certain expectations.
Don't give up on it yet, it can take days to master it.

Here's a bit of a cheer-up: My Havoc does about 4 charges while under the stim pack effect.
Which is tunring that "grenade" into more then any grenade I can throw could do. Plus I can use the charge without a stim situational, for example to get to an enemy on higher ground fast without taking the ladder or the long walk around.

Too tired to do the math now tho. Sorry.

[ToaOrka]

I haven't played with him too much, any preventative help would be much appreciated!

No points in Cryo-Blast by the way, my dude's a Soldier, not an Infiltrator.

[SushiSquid]

Seargent_Braken wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

The Havoc is also addicted to stims and totally breaks down the second you try to take them away. Unfortunately, the Infiltrator being more overpowered than the Gethfiltrator means that you're hosed for supply -- my stock of 4 lasts the requisite 36 seconds, then I get to sit in a corner and cry until the shakes wear off.

2 words: Grenade Gear. You'll have plenty, then.

But then you run out, the map is dry, and you have to use a pack to replenish. Again, a normal grenade class could do the same thing while causing a ton more damage over greater range and more safely.

[Gamemako]

Cyonan wrote...

It's like it wants to be Biotic Charge but it doesn't want to be an exact copy of Biotic Charge. I feel like it needs something else to set it apart rather than just being an inferior version of Biotic Charge. Damage is the most obvious thing to give it instead of just slapping shield regen on it and calling it a day. Also more force so I can stagger Gold Phantoms with it(Might be able to with evo 5, but you can't if you picked AoE).

if you take AoE and take F&D and power damage at rank 4 and 5 of class skill, you'll be at 1050N, enough to stagger Phantoms of any difficulty with AoE. I believe your HS deals 875 damage.

Cyonan wrote...

The Stim Packs can keep you alive pretty well, but it's basically required that you have Grenade Gear V and are ready to use multiple Thermal Clip Packs, or are the only one using grenades in the game. They have the same anti-synergy that all grenadiers do, except it's not your damage that suffers for it, but rather your ability to stay alive.

If you're running HS/melee, it also hurts you damage output when your Stim runs out. That said, I generally run shock trooper for the shotgun damage along with my 2 extra grenades.

Cyonan wrote...

The ability looks incredibly awesome, but it does need a bit of a buff imo.

Trudat. Since no-one else has HS, it's an easy one to toy with, too.

TheKillerAngel wrote...

If you guys are PC, I'll play a game with you using my soldier right now.

My origin ID is HUnewearl. I've played quite a bit and will also play the Havoc. I would be interested to see if anyone can do better than me.

[Kyerea]

 Havok Strike is pretty bad, I agree it needs some kind of reworking.

On a plus side, Turian Ghost EFFING ROCKS! \\\\m//