73 réponses à ce sujet

[-Semper-]

berelinde wrote...

The Witcher 2 is a PC-only game.

i travelled through time and space to bring you this!

[berelinde]

Huh. So they did release a console port, after all. I wonder if it has the same environmental features. Regardless, I'm pretty sure that console gamers won't want to wait a few extra years after the PC release to play DA3.

Then again, if DA3 is designed for the next generation of consoles, resources may not even be an issue. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

As I said before, I'd really appreciate weather effects and day/night cycles, but I wouldn't want it to detract from other features. If they can do it, great! If they can't, that's OK, too.

[Henioo]

This should have happened in DA2. Kirkwall shoulda been so big, that it'd take in-game day just ot get from one end to the other.

I don't see the point of weather and time of day change if DA3's going to take place in multiple places, like DA:O.

I would like to see it still, though.

[Dragoonlordz]

I have long asked Bioware to go down the route of 'living world' principles in their games and put as much time and effort into the world, setting and enviroments as they do with characters. If they spent as much time on the world, enviroments, living world effects (weather, non-static NPC's/enviroments and wildlife, day and night cycles etc to name a few) as they did with the companions then the games they make would be vastly better.

Need to breathe life into those aspects because DA2 felt lifeless, kirkwall was bland, everything static and lifeless, (almost) never changing across a (7 years) and no signs of wildlife, no weather that I can recall, the day and night was an on and off switch and even that was broken (darktown at night was for example still sunny). NPC's did not react to what you are or what your doing. All these things are detrimental to the quality of the game, you cannot rely on only good characters then let the rest of the game suffer.

When all aspects are of equally high quality that is when you have an amazing game.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:03 .

[deuce985]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I have long asked Bioware to go down the route of 'living world' principles in their games and put as much time and effort into the world, setting and enviroments as they do with characters. If they spent as much time on the world, enviroments, living world effects (weather, non-static NPC's/enviroments and wildlife, day and night cycles etc to name a few) as they did with the companions then the games they make would be vastly better.

Agreed.

But unfortunately, it probably means you wouldn't get the great companions you're so use to in Bioware games. Compromise would come somewhere. If only Bioware had unlimited budget and team size...

The more popular their games get, the bigger their games will be. And we'll start seeing features like this in their games. See? Branching out and creating more appeal in your games can be a positive.

Modifié par deuce985, 10 octobre 2012 - 07:28 .

[CELL55]

It could be nice, but I felt that DA2's Day/Night cycle was kinda unituitive/unnatural and poorly handled. So not like that again. In fact, I would rather it not be done at all if it can't be done right.

[Wulfram]

They should definitely do more to fake a living world, but that doesn't mean they should have day/night cycles.

Adding some through traffic to populated areas and signs of people doing their jobs would be good. You don't need to go to the lengths of Skyrim with everyone having a schedule, just have people walk past you with signs of purpose, maybe occasionally stopping by a merchant for a bit.

[guillomn]

I think that Day/Night cycle would be totally cool but I probably would prefer if it wasn't implemented. Because you can make a scene look just like the artist wants it to look like wich contributes to the overall atmosphere of the game. In a game like Skyrim where the main point of the game is discover the world and go exploring It adds a lot to the feeling when you have the cycles. But In a game like Dragon Age I feel more like watching the story and enjoying the art it has to offer and exculding the Day/Night cycles means more freedom for the artist, wich is what I prefer.

A weather system would be totally cool though. Imagine you have that very cool atmospheric scenery and then It changes dynamically without breaking the atmosphere. Like you could have little rain drops every now and then.

But whatever those are just my opinions. Everybody has it's own artistic taste.

[Dragoonlordz]

Wulfram wrote...

They should definitely do more to fake a living world, but that doesn't mean they should have day/night cycles.

Adding some through traffic to populated areas and signs of people doing their jobs would be good. You don't need to go to the lengths of Skyrim with everyone having a schedule, just have people walk past you with signs of purpose, maybe occasionally stopping by a merchant for a bit.

Remember it is not just Skyrim which headed down this route, Witcher 2 did so as well (said themselves was incredibly important to the quality of the game) because they recognise the improvement to the experience on the gamer when it is not just the characters or companions that are high quality but the world and immersion within it too play a huge role. As more and more developers improve this element, I don't want to see Bioware left behind on it.

Couple videos where they explained it for their game.





The thing most in need of improvement for me is the world, the enviroments and setting that Bioware need to work on above all else. Their characters, companions etc are already very high quality and voted the best thing about their games. If they can apply that same quality to the world itself the player is part of then their games will be amazing. As shown by a recent poll the world and setting is one of the major elements they failed on or least liked by the players in their games because of lack of quality compared to the other elements. I said well over year ago they need to bring those other elements up to that same quality they aspire to with the companions in their games.

I really enjoy Biowares games but I can see this as a major element lacking in quality that I want them to improve on not just for me as the player but for all players. I wrote a long rant about this specific topic in my initial review of the game and hopes for the sequel. I want Bioware to always be making better and better games for both my enjoyment and their success. I don't know what they are doing with DA3 with so little information out there but I can only hope they are trying to tackle the other elements in the game with as much care as they show towards the companions and characters in the past.

Between this element and the better handling of choice/consequence and impact of choices, those things are the things that matter most to me for any following game they create. Which is why this post is so long and descriptive about this element.

As stated on these forums and in interviews, you guys have stated you wanted a more cinematic experience. Surely that goes hand in hand with visual aspects such as weather system, wind and day/night cycles. All of these things increase the cinematic feel of a game. Ditto with NPC reactions to your presence and actions. I can understand that different developers start at different point with different goals but they should look at each other for things they could do better.

Those things I mentioned would make your titles better especially in a cinematic way imho. Other companies are seeing what it is you have done yourselves and that is why I gave the example of Rockstar, Bethesda, Eidos and Cryptic all implementing and improving, trying to do such things as choices/conseqeunces cause/effect systems because you did so well developing them to create a demand for such things on a bigger scale. 

You can't sit back and not take note of what others are doing just because you scored a point with that system to be honest. Your stories aren't the greatest thing in gaming but the combination of your choices systems that is used to tell the story is what made you special and not the story on its own imho. Now they are trying to create such systems themselves you cannot afford to surely count on just that gameplay mechanic to keep you ahead of the rest. I am of the firm belief it is far more advisable to watch what the others are upto and try to implement the 'best' features and add it onto you own titles which might on top of that have its own special features. Tweaking the engine over time to always improve it add more stunning visuals and realism which immerses the player in that world of which you create. How can anyone seriously argue that such immersion is a bad thing for a game?

I cannot agree to any actual reason why a developer would purposefully decide against trying to build such immersion in the worlds you have created with such features that have a great affect on the aforementioned immersion. If you truly held BG as the benchmark of RPG quality then why did you move to 3D or continue to evolve the engines and visual quality of your games from back then. The same reason you evolved your games from then is the same reason you should try your best to evolve such features as the ones I have mentioned.

Bioware really has no more of a trump card than just that. Other games do specific things such as good group party combat and deep emotionally involving background and storyline for the companions in the game with or without the system I just mentioned. The fact other titles are beginning to try to emulate and incorporate such systems is a good thing and Bioware pushed it that way to a large degree with their titles. But as time progresses and the other developers get better at adding such systems Bioware can't afford to sit on it's bum and rely just on that.

Biowares stories rely on that system to tell their stories and that imho is what makes them special, the story alone or combat alone is by far not what makes their games a cut above the rest.

Just imagine how much more you could of enjoyed the game (if) a gentle breeze could blow through the grass and you see it's affects, a wind blowing through your hair and it reacting accordingly, NPCs that react not only to your presence and actions but also the weather, the weather system itself ever changing and in a immersive realistic way, NPCs that go about their lives whether you interacted with them or not and even a day and night system that changes with world and people within it acting accordingly.

The Witcher 2 titles has such things and Bioware should look at them and see if they can add any of those aspects to their own titles. How much better would the experience and immersion of been for you if they had that in DAO or DA2? It is not about whether you gleamed enough immersion from a game without it to enjoy the game. Always try to make their games better and better should be the approach and such systems do add to enjoyment and immersion in the worlds of which either company create.

My point and I feel it is a valid one is when a rival company within the same genre as Bioware (RPGs) comes up with a new mechanic or system, Bioware should examine and try to incorporate the best of those things into their games not just dismiss just because you have other things that make your games good, you should add such things to your already existing systems to make your games even better both in realism and immersion. Add such things to what may already be a great game taking it to a new level.

If both Skyrim and Witcher 2 can implement such systems and features I see no valid reason why Bioware cannot do the same. As more and more developers improve this element it just makes Bioware look bad if they don't even bother to try. Bioware is no longer restrained by their previous engine like was in past. With Frostbite 2 these things are very possible and the engine can no longer be used to excuse not bothering to try to bring these other parts of their games up to same quality as the companions aspect.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:34 .

[Wulfram]

I can't comment on The Witcher 2 because I never got very far in TW1. But it doesn't seem like it's doing anything notably different from Skyrim. Where, for me, it only serves to highlight how small and fake the environment really is.

[Brockololly]

I would hope they have dynamic weather and a day/night cycle in DA3. Along with as many other things they've previously avoided in Origins and DA2 due to lack of resources or engine issues, like cloaks, capes, bowstrings and horses (even if they're not able to be ridden).

Weather and day/night cycles add to the atmosphere and authenticity of a world. And recent BioWare games have been lacking in those atmospheric details.

[Dragoonlordz]

Wulfram wrote...

I can't comment on The Witcher 2 because I never got very far in TW1. But it doesn't seem like it's doing anything notably different from Skyrim. Where, for me, it only serves to highlight how small and fake the environment really is.

Neither were as fake and small as was given to the player in DA2. These elements go towards breathing life into the worlds and not remaining lifeless and static like DA2 was. I linked a video first one in last post which shows what they do.

I honestly question why anyone would not want these elements improved in the games they play. It does not matter how great the characters or companions are if they are stuck in a lifeless, static world or setting, void of any life or reaction to the player or the enviroments themselves. Bring all elements up to as high a standard as they have on the companions because until that time their games will always be less than they can become. I don't see why any developer would want to produce a worse quality game when there are ways to improve that overall quality known to them. It's one thing if they try and fail, it's another if cant be bothered to try in the first place especially given the new engine they are using which is by far capable of such elements.

Players mention things they think will improve their enjoyment, developers are the ones who have to think about cost and time invested to see if they can add such to improve their games. As shown however both TW2 and Skyrim managed to implement such systems and both were extremely well recieved. Bioware does great characters, companions etc but they need to bring the rest of the game upto that standard even as a studio I cannot imagine why they would want to have one element thats good and the rest lacking that same level of quality. Surely they would want all elements to be equally as good.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:59 .

[Wulfram]

Things I think will improve the atmosphere, I support. But for me, stuff like in Skyrim makes the game worse. Not by taking away resources from other parts of the game, but by being bad in and of themselves.

The time compression necessary to make Day/night cycles at all relevant kills my suspension of disbelieve. The elaborate time schedules still have NPCs acting more fake than a simple script that has a generic NPC spawn at one point and leave at another. My time is wasted tracking people to their bedchambers so I can wake them up, deliver their item and leave. The NPCs randomly die and no one cares, nor do they mention the dragon that just killed her. Cities are turned into hamlets to accomodate this stuff.

For all the flaws of Denerim and even Kirkwall, they were far more believable as cities than anything in Skyrim or Oblivion. Because they never claimed to be anything more than a small slice of a great city.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 octobre 2012 - 09:07 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Wulfram wrote...

Things I think will improve the atmosphere, I support. But for me, stuff like in Skyrim makes the game worse. Not by taking away resources from other parts of the game, but by being bad in and of themselves.

The time compression necessary to make Day/night cycles at all relevant kills my suspension of disbelieve. The elaborate time schedules still have NPCs acting more fake than a simple script that has a generic NPC spawn at one point and leave at another. My time is wasted tracking people to their bedchambers so I can wake them up, deliver their item and leave. The NPCs randomly die and no one cares, nor do they mention the dragon that just killed her. Cities are turned into hamlets to accomodate this stuff.

For all the flaws of Denerim and even Kirkwall, they were far more believable as cities than anything in Skyrim or Oblivion. Because they never claimed to be anything more than a small slice of a great city.

I think your position is merely you want conveiniance but at the cost of believability. It was not more believable to me with how it was done in DA2, it was purely conveiniance. Static NPCs that never move, only access to places have to go to progress plot and cutting out of all wildlife, weather, flawed day and night system which did not actually work as it was broken, city that was lifeless and empty and lacking immersion in the world setting in order to speed up your plot and character progression.

How you can claim DA2 Kirkwall etc is more believeable than say Flotsam or Skyrim cities is beyond me. One has attempted to breathe life into characters and reactions to your actions and presence while the other aka DA2 could have you beheading children in the city square and the guards and NPC's would stand by and ignore you. The locations were devoid of life and nature, the world was devoid of weather and the day and night was an on and off switch that did not work in some locations.

I think we will agree to disagree on what will improve the game between us but I (personally) think the demand for what I am asking for and others like me is far higher than those who want more of what we had been given in the last one on this feature or elements. I could be wrong but I do not think I am.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 octobre 2012 - 09:43 .

[Wulfram]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I think your position is merely you want conveiniance but at the cost of believability.

No, my position is that I want more believability, not less.

Reactions from NPCs in the area of a fight, that's good. Having NPCs appear to be travelling somewhere or doing something rather than just standing around, that's good.  Having a lot more people in cities, that's really needed.

Immersion breaking stuff like Day/Night cycles or tiny Skyrim "cities" are what should be avoided.

Present a convincing snapshot of a small part of a great city.  Don't turn a great city into a village carrying out a horribly fake facsimile of their whole lives.

[Dragoonlordz]

Wulfram wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I think your position is merely you want conveiniance but at the cost of believability.

No, my position is that I want more believability, not less.

Reactions from NPCs in the area of a fight, that's good. Having NPCs appear to be travelling somewhere or doing something rather than just standing around, that's good.  Having a lot more people in cities, that's really needed.

Immersion breaking stuff like Day/Night cycles or tiny Skyrim "cities" are what should be avoided.

Present a convincing snapshot of a small part of a great city.  Don't turn a great city into a village carrying out a horribly fake facsimile of their whole lives.

You keep going on about how living world features and elements in such games as Skyrim or Witcher 2 (as an example since I gave you link to watch for reference) is less believable than Kirkwall or Denerim, explain exactly how they were less believable and I mean examples to make your point because what you prefer was never more believable to me in the slightest compared to the comparrisons of other games I have given you.

I want to know why you think your examples are more believable. How is a world devoid of wildlife more believable, how is a world with no weather wind or rain, snow and more that noone reacts to more believable, a day/night system that works like a broken on and off switch where darktown at night actually has the sun out. How is static non-moving non-reacting NPCs more believable to you, how is never changing surroundings more believable and so on.

You said Kirkwall is more believable... Which is quite shocking to me you could think that. Denerim actually had some living world elements which vanished in the sequel aka Kirkwall but even Denerim could of had many more elements so I want to know how you can possibly think that Kirkwall (especially) plus Denerim is more believable compared to Skyrim or Witcher 2 world, people, weather, wildlife, passing of time and enviroments.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 octobre 2012 - 10:55 .

[marshalleck]

I think he's just mad at Skyrim and Witcher 2.

[Wulfram]

I've explained repeatedly. The dragon age approach is superior for me because

1. I don't have to deal with the immersion breaking sped up time that's inherent in a day/night cycle. If I go away for half an hour and forget to pause, it won't suddenly be midnight.
2. I don't have to deal with silly, unrealistic behaviour caused by the time schedules. No one suddenly walking off, no having to follow people to their bedrooms to deliver quests.
3. There's no pretence that the small areas we see are supposed to be the entire city - which is inherent in the idea that people need to have a place to go to sleep or to work - when they're just as static as in Bioware games. This means that the city doesn't have to be shrunk to absurdity

As I've also said repeatedly, there are certainly improvements that could do with being made, like making people react to fights, adding through traffic and generally adding more people. But that does not mean adding day/night cycles or the rest of that stuff.

edit:  I like Skyrim, despite the day/night cycle.  Fortunately, a pseudo viking setting doesn't really depend on having credible cities.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 octobre 2012 - 10:59 .

[Kidd]

Zelda 64 had a day/night cycle, I didn't much care for it. It was cool the first few times, but most of the time I'd reach the castle at night or just as night was rolling out, so I'd have to sit there afk for a few minutes waiting to enter again. Of course, it wasn't that long a wait since time was sped up incredibly much.

Majora's Mask was better in that regard, but waiting for shops took even more time there x)

[Dragoonlordz]

Wulfram wrote...

1. I don't have to deal with the immersion breaking sped up time that's inherent in a day/night cycle. If I go away for half an hour and forget to pause, it won't suddenly be midnight.

It is not immersion breaking to have time flowing instead of an on and off switch and your example again is all about convenience not realism or believability. You do not want to arrive at a place at night and have the characters sleeping or moved from the spot, you want them all static and awake 24/7 in the same spot for your convenience. That has nothing to do with believability. God forbid you go to the pub to hang out or home to sleep till morning or if out and about outside towns or cities just set up camp and wait till morning. They can always put in a rest function or passing of time at click of button for those like yourself who are very impatient.

2. I don't have to deal with silly, unrealistic behaviour caused by the time schedules. No one suddenly walking off, no having to follow people to their bedrooms to deliver quests.

I crossed out the fallacy in the above part. It is actually the fact you do not want to deal with the more realistic behaviour that comes from characters and NPC's going about their lives compared to the unrealistic desire to have them standing around never moving from the spot for their entire lives.. Sleeping at night, going to work in mornings, chatting to others on the way to work or on the way home. These such things are realistic and not unrealistic as you claim. They may not be able to script a lifetimes worth of actions for each NPC but even some is better than nothing as far as realism goes. Would not be hard to be able to knock on doors at night to have the NPC's come to the door and then you can deliver items or talk to them there if push comes to shove, you do not have to break in unless given a quest to sneak in and steal or kill someone.

3. There's no pretence that the small areas we see are supposed to be the entire city - which is inherent in the idea that people need to have a place to go to sleep or to work - when they're just as static as in Bioware games. This means that the city doesn't have to be shrunk to absurdity

Have no idea what your talking about here. Does not make much sense at all to me the reasoning your giving. People wanted more often than not on here a more expansive and larger world not a more limited and tiny one for your convenience. More people, larger areas and greater exploration. You do not have to be able to enter every house or have a house for every NPC in the game, multiple ways exist to handle such elements without what you claim happening. Witcher 1 even handled such issues well enough.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 10 octobre 2012 - 11:55 .

[Wulfram]

It is not about convenience. It is about (percieved) realism and immersion.

Clearly you find different things break your sense of realism than I do.

For me, the rapid progression of time, the (to me) fake way the schedules make characters act and the compression of major cities to a tiny community jar very badly.

That you feel differently is fine. This is a subjective matter of personal preference.

But I would please ask that you stop misrepresenting my position.
It is not a matter of convenience, it is a matter of (percieved) realism and immersion.

[Kidd]

I agree it ruins immersion when days and nights fade quickly. The DA2 system works because I can sit around for an entire hour in an area without noticing any changes in daylight. And if I went outside by noon IRL and stayed out for an hour, I wouldn't notice anything. Similarly if we go to Lake Calenhad in DAO, it's night time and that won't change even if we hang around for an hour or two.

Time doesn't move, no. But are we aware it remains still while immersed? I've never thought about it for a single second, I know that much. Aside from specific times of day, I find it hard to even notice time is passing IRL. Suddenly I just may realise many, many hours later that it's gotten a bit darker.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 11 octobre 2012 - 12:52 .

[slimgrin]

Wulfram wrote...

I've explained repeatedly. The dragon age approach is superior for me because

1. I don't have to deal with the immersion breaking sped up time that's inherent in a day/night cycle. If I go away for half an hour and forget to pause, it won't suddenly be midnight.
2. I don't have to deal with silly, unrealistic behaviour caused by the time schedules. No one suddenly walking off, no having to follow people to their bedrooms to deliver quests.
3. There's no pretence that the small areas we see are supposed to be the entire city - which is inherent in the idea that people need to have a place to go to sleep or to work - when they're just as static as in Bioware games. This means that the city doesn't have to be shrunk to absurdity

As I've also said repeatedly, there are certainly improvements that could do with being made, like making people react to fights, adding through traffic and generally adding more people. But that does not mean adding day/night cycles or the rest of that stuff.

edit:  I like Skyrim, despite the day/night cycle.  Fortunately, a pseudo viking setting doesn't really depend on having credible cities.

Lol...what? It breaks immersion? You are in a fantasy world controlling a bunch of pixels. How can a day/night cycle possibly break immersion? It's like an author writing a story that takes place over a month, but never changing the time of day. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 11 octobre 2012 - 12:57 .

[HurricaneGinger]

I wouldn't mind some snow, rain, or even leaves falling from the trees. Small things like that would be nice environmental nods. Day and night cycles I don't mind, unless the RPG is something like Elder Scrolls.

What breaks immersion are dialog clips, or talking to your companions every three years.